Contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids

[Coldfrostzero]

You guys gotta stop with this lol. It doesn't matter if the content is easy and hybrids are capable of doing it. If someone can make the game even easier, they're going to do it.

Yeah, you could probably clear naxx with hybrids today, but there's no reason to make it harder on yourself. For what gain?

The gain of having fun and not worrying if you clear a raid 20 minutes faster than another guild going full 16 warrior DPS? It's just ridiculous that people are so against something that doesn't affect them at all. Don't join a guild or a group with non-meta specs and you'll be fine. Plenty of people playing the meta.

[asil]

The gain of having fun and not worrying if you clear a raid 20 minutes faster than another guild going full 16 warrior DPS? It's just ridiculous that people are so against something that doesn't affect them at all. Don't join a guild or a group with non-meta specs and you'll be fine. Plenty of people playing the meta.

Friend, vanilla pve today is almost 100% based around speed runs. I don't think anyone is saying you can't go join a guild willing to take you and play whatever spec you want.

But don't complain when you can't get into pugs. But be warned - The reality is most good guilds in classic are going to optimize. They have no reason to not do so.

[munkeyinorbit]

Some Hunters are stupid some are not. Some Rogues are stupid some are not, some Warriors are stupid some are not. I would not roll on a 2h Str weapon. If an item has no Agi on it, I will not roll on it. If a caster does not need an Int+Sta item and I need the int, I might roll on it. Str is useless.

The word you are looking for is useful. Strength is not useful for a hunter. This is where all the confusion comes from.

As someone who actually played in vanilla I can tell you that there was some initial confusion with Strength as hunters had melee abilities and strength increased melee attack power. Why wouldn't you use it, right?

We all know now that Strength is not a hunter stat because a hunter shouldn't be in melee range. But it is not useless.

[Caperfin]

The reality is most good guilds in classic are going to optimize. They have no reason to not do so.

True, but this only applies to 1-2 weeks during progression. Afterwards there is no reason to have this min-max attitude in order to kill a boss, if you still have to, then you aren't in a good guild.

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The word you are looking for is useful. Strength is not useful for a hunter. This is where all the confusion comes from.

As someone who actually played in vanilla I can tell you that there was some initial confusion with Strength as hunters had melee abilities and strength increased melee attack power. Why wouldn't you use it, right?

We all know now that Strength is not a hunter stat because a hunter shouldn't be in melee range. But it is not useless.

Careful there, don't speak outside of your expertise, a melee hunter is very much a thing and will rival a ranged hunter, if played properly.

[Aphrel]

I am seeing what I believe to be contradictory thoughts regarding allowing hybrids to DPS in raids.

Lets start with classic raiding difficulty.

It is of a universal belief that Molten Core and pretty much all of these raids are basically going to be a cakewalk. Maybe its because the player base is so used to current raids with a ton of mechanics or players have gotten better who knows?

So my question is this, and I think you know where I am going with this...

If Classic raiding is so easy then why not allow any or more Ret Paladins, Feral Druids, Enhancement Shamans?

You could also raid with 35ppl. or even 25ppl. Infact, theres several better reasons for doing that then bringing those specs to raid.

[Caperfin]

Who'd get that 2h then? It's not like 2h items had any value in vanilla raiding, it's just a statstick for hunter or a pvp item for other classes

2h are used by the paladin class in the majority of their dps specs. Also, later on in the game (AQ-Naxx) a melee spec'ed spellpower hunter wields a 2h and their dps can come close to ranged hunters. I've heard x2 Deathbringer with proper RS queuing is better but never got to try it out myself, so I don't feel comfortable saying it's BIS.

[Charge me Doctor]

2h are used by the paladin class in the majority of their dps specs. Also, later on in the game (AQ-Naxx) a melee spec'ed spellpower hunter wields a 2h and their dps can come close to ranged hunters. I've heard x2 Deathbringer with proper RS queuing is better but never got to try it out myself, so I don't feel comfortable saying it's BIS.

That's my point, it's not like str 2h are high-demanded weapons, it's more like 1/4th of your raid fighting over same damn one-handers and leather gear

[Coldfrostzero]

Friend, vanilla pve today is almost 100% based around speed runs. I don't think anyone is saying you can't go join a guild willing to take you and play whatever spec you want.

But don't complain when you can't get into pugs. But be warned - The reality is most good guilds in classic are going to optimize. They have no reason to not do so.

Not every single person is interested in speed running. The bosses will die fairly quickly regardless. The speed run kills for all of MC right now have the average kill at about ~30 seconds. Clearing the place in an hour roughly. So a non optimized group takes an hour and a half? The horror.

Good thing I'm playing a Prot warrior as my main then. I am just defending those who want to play something else. Game is 15 years old and isn't even an inkling as hard as it was pre-1.12 and even less so with high speed internet, super fast computers, and most of all knowledge. When I first played the game, I didn't understand how threat worked or how to properly gear. There was no big in-depth guide anywhere to help with what gear I should target. Now, I get people wanting to join my guild of friends and leaving their 100+ person guild because their tanks can't hold threat and their DPS is subpar.

[hc7]

Speaking as both a raid leader and former guild leader all I can ask why should I allow Ret Paladins and Enhance Shamans?

A Feral Druid is welcome, as a tank mainly not as DPS, since they can handle much of the raid content while currently doing insane threat compared to Warrior tanks though we'll see how long that lasts and even then I'd only take exactly one Feral druid.

But a Ret or Enhance will no offer no benefit. They will be a drain on a raid and a waste of gear. Am I to insult my warriors by passing over good two handers for the sake of people that are for all intents and purposes being carried in the raid? Am I to ask 38 other people to carry that Ret and Enhance shaman?

No I don't think so.

Also do not underestimate the raid difficulty: Raids being taken down because a bunch of people min maxed their gear, builds and raid setups by stacking them with warrior, rogues and mages doesn't make the raids easy. MC and Onyxia are by far the easiest raids in vanilla. People are going to be in for a rude awakening come BWL and ZG.

EDIT: Before anyone mentions Esfand. He gets away with it because he's the GM of his guild, and he's a prick for using that position to play as ret...but he's also the GM of his guild and the amount of effort he puts in to run a guild allow him to be a prick like that.

Lol this is such poor logic and analysis, as well as it being just straight wrong in some aspects.

Ferals can do plenty good DPS, if youve ever raided with an actual good feral dps. Their versatility is also not to be understated, a bear tank is just as good as a warrior tank for bosses where there isnt a lot of magic damage, where they fall behind warriors, some bosses mechanics tend not to favor bears just beacuse their tanking toolkit isnt anywhere near a warriors where some of those things in their toolkit are necessary for some bosses. Ferals can actually be preferable for certain fights. And they can easily jump in cat form, put on DPS gear and still do some pretty solid DPS even if theyre still mainly tank specced.

However saying enhance or ret is literally useless and offer no benefit is just plain wrong and stupid. Being able to have one for WF for your tank group is SUPER helpful when gear starts to get good and warrior tanks essentially need to go dual wield tank to hold threat. And youre not going to have enough shamans where you can have WF down for your melee group(s), and tank groups, not to mention the fact your healers are probably not going to be dropping totems in melee range for a lot of fights where there is a lot going on. WF also shares the same totem with a lot of other useful totems, so even if you have some resto shamans they arent going to necessarily be able to drop WF in the first place. Just being able to drop a WF totem from your enhance and then maybe another in your melee group by another shaman is a HUGE DPS increase for those top tier DPS classes like Warrior and Rogue, in which the raid will probably have at least 3-4 of each. Ret offers plenty of utility too, and also gives you another pally buff that you can throw out, and good ret pallys who know how to use their utility can be VERY useful on many fights.

Also, both can actually be plenty viable DPS at the same time. It takes the right player, whose good at their class and really understands how to gear/play the class though. Will they be topping the charts, probably not. But they are definitely capable of being middle of the pack and being plenty viable. The fact of the matter is, those specs werent played much at all in Vanilla and players simply did not understand how to min/max the DPS as well and players are simply better now. So yeah, maybe back then it was extremely rare to see one doing good DPS, but the idea of them being even capable of doing decent DPS was almost completely resigned which further prevented people from actually trying it and figuring out how to do good DPS like we know now, that they are capable of. Its just not as simple or easy as other classes, you certainly have to work for those middle of the pack numbers a lot more than other classes and thats fine.

So the idea that youd be asking 38 others to "carry" those classes and that itd be insulting to give them gear, theyve earned just as much as any other class is quite frankly...fucking dumb and flat out wrong. Maybe if they are bad players, but bad players get carried across every class.

And calling someone a prick for raiding as Ret as the GM of a guild lmao..? Yeah, youre not the brightest, idiotic some would say.

[Vampyrr]

You are off an expansion, the talk of hybrids vs pures was BC. Vanilla it was just this spec vs that spec discussions

[Specialka]

Lol this is such poor logic and analysis, as well as it being just straight wrong in some aspects.

Ferals can do plenty good DPS, if youve ever raided with an actual good feral dps. Their versatility is also not to be understated, a bear tank is just as good as a warrior tank for bosses where there isnt a lot of magic damage, where they fall behind warriors, some bosses mechanics tend not to favor bears just beacuse their tanking toolkit isnt anywhere near a warriors where some of those things in their toolkit are necessary for some bosses. Ferals can actually be preferable for certain fights. And they can easily jump in cat form, put on DPS gear and still do some pretty solid DPS even if theyre still mainly tank specced.

However saying enhance or ret is literally useless and offer no benefit is just plain wrong and stupid. Being able to have one for WF for your tank group is SUPER helpful when gear starts to get good and warrior tanks essentially need to go dual wield tank to hold threat. And youre not going to have enough shamans where you can have WF down for your melee group(s), and tank groups, not to mention the fact your healers are probably not going to be dropping totems in melee range for a lot of fights where there is a lot going on. WF also shares the same totem with a lot of other useful totems, so even if you have some resto shamans they arent going to necessarily be able to drop WF in the first place. Just being able to drop a WF totem from your enhance and then maybe another in your melee group by another shaman is a HUGE DPS increase for those top tier DPS classes like Warrior and Rogue, in which the raid will probably have at least 3-4 of each. Ret offers plenty of utility too, and also gives you another pally buff that you can throw out, and good ret pallys who know how to use their utility can be VERY useful on many fights.

Also, both can actually be plenty viable DPS at the same time. It takes the right player, whose good at their class and really understands how to gear/play the class though. Will they be topping the charts, probably not. But they are definitely capable of being middle of the pack and being plenty viable. The fact of the matter is, those specs werent played much at all in Vanilla and players simply did not understand how to min/max the DPS as well and players are simply better now. So yeah, maybe back then it was extremely rare to see one doing good DPS, but the idea of them being even capable of doing decent DPS was almost completely resigned which further prevented people from actually trying it and figuring out how to do good DPS like we know now, that they are capable of. Its just not as simple or easy as other classes, you certainly have to work for those middle of the pack numbers a lot more than other classes and thats fine.

So the idea that youd be asking 38 others to "carry" those classes and that itd be insulting to give them gear, theyve earned just as much as any other class is quite frankly...fucking dumb and flat out wrong. Maybe if they are bad players, but bad players get carried across every class.

And calling someone a prick for raiding as Ret as the GM of a guild lmao..? Yeah, youre not the brightest, idiotic some would say.

How about getting a resto shaman instead of the enh shaman? You get buffs a little weaker, but you can pick a pure dps instead. So yes, enh shaman is useless in raid.

As for the ret paladin, he can spec ret but still heal. That way, you have one more healer, and one room for a pure dps. Again, ret is useless.

And you speak of good players playing needed to play those class to be "middle of the pack", why not use those good players on pure dps to skyrocket the dps meter?

[kamuimac]

If ur not a mage, lock, fury warr or combat rogue, u have no place in raids at all!



/s

why did you list semi-shit classes like locks and rogues there alongside real dps - warriors and mages ?

[Daevelian]

Elitism and min/max culture running rampant is about it really.

I have noticed that the EU and OCE servers are more accepting of hybrid DPS though.

[asil]

True, but this only applies to 1-2 weeks during progression. Afterwards there is no reason to have this min-max attitude in order to kill a boss, if you still have to, then you aren't in a good guild.

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Careful there, don't speak outside of your expertise, a melee hunter is very much a thing and will rival a ranged hunter, if played properly.

A "good guild" is going to be speed running, they have an interest in improving time. There is no "progression" in classic, the content is a massive joke.