Geya'rah

[GreenJesus]

I wish sylvanas killed off the human race before she left.

[KrakHed]

* The Horde used to have their own counterpart to the 7th Legion in the Kor'Kron, infact it could be said the 7th Legion was the Alliance counterpart of them.

I loathe the faction war. I honestly can't understand any Horde fan who would ever want to be gutted like that ever again. Nor can I understand any fan who supports obvious villain batting, which only guarantees the Horde's loss.

The Horde only loses from war plots, every achievement of the Horde, every inch of progress, has been destroyed in faction wars.

We had the Dragonmaw for a bit. We had Nazgrim. We had Kor'kron. We had Cairne. Grom's son could have been cool if he wasn't designed to be the fall guy for the faction war. Even Vol'jin was sacrificed upon the altar of war. Now Sylvanas, Nathanos, Gallywix, and Saurfang have followed.

If this is what Warcraft has given me, if this is the only way Blizz will end a war, then give me Peacecraft and let us fucking rebuild.

[Gann Stonespire]

Remember the Siame-Quashi?

I do

I loathe the faction war. I honestly can't understand any Horde fan who would ever want to be gutted like that ever again. Nor can I understand any fan who supports obvious villain batting, which only guarantees the Horde's loss.

The Horde only loses from war plots, every achievement of the Horde, every inch of progress, has been destroyed in faction wars.

We had the Dragonmaw for a bit. We had Nazgrim. We had Kor'kron. We had Cairne. Grom's son could have been cool if he wasn't designed to be the fall guy for the faction war. Even Vol'jin was sacrificed upon the altar of war. Now Sylvanas, Nathanos, Gallywix, and Saurfang have followed.

If this is what Warcraft has given me, if this is the only way Blizz will end a war, then give me Peacecraft and let us fucking rebuild.

But don't you all remember, the story favors Horde because of "Horde bias" /s

[Kemsa]

Not for humans.

Anyone remember:

* Nazgrel was supposed to important.
* That the Horde had their own rogue organization, the Shattered Hand.
* The Horde used to have their own counterpart to the 7th Legion in the Kor'Kron, infact it could be said the 7th Legion was the Alliance counterpart of them.
* The Horde once had its own archaeology organization, yet we work for the Explorer's League anyhow.

Also the Forsaken had their own "organizations" like the Deathstalkers (rogue), the Deathguards (Warrior) , the dark rangers (hunters), the apothecaries...etc But yeah the Horde needs fresh blood for new "heroes" thats why Zappy boy got a lot of atention

[KrakHed]

But don't you all remember, the story favors Horde because of "Horde bias" /s

Well, they do give the Horde more story, it's just cannibalistic and self-destructive with no regard for the future. The Horde as a faction has burnt out. At this point the Horde needs heavy narrative focus just to replenish its stock.

[NoiseTank13]

She's just a female Garrosh, nothing more.

[Dellis0991]

She literally came not just from an another planet but from an alternate reality of another planet, avoided being light-raped and escaped almost certain death, joined the faction two seconds later by swearing her loyalty to an undead angry elf she just met and got caught up in the whole traitor/not a traitor mess. Bitch I would be confused too and wouldn't have priorities straight.

^This right here, she was also thrown into leading too. One thing I like about her is that she seen this as a lesson learned. There is so many leaders on both sides who shot themselves in the foot repeating the same actions and then cry because they bought hell down on themselves. I still holding out she gets more development and maybe she start hearing the elements and become a shaman.

- - - Updated - - -

I wish sylvanas killed off the human race before she left.

You know how terrifying a forsaken Anduin would be?

[Powerogue]

They took the really stupid route of never acknowledging anybody from the AU knowing about the MU counterparts on the Horde side, where it mattered way more than the Alliance side. I think the one and only example of them HINTING at it was when Gul'dan throws Gorehowl at Grom when he's chained up and says, "Son" and Grom looks confused/sad during the 6.2 trailer.

I mean people asked for WOD to be forgotten and killing off all the AU versions of existing characters and making the racial leader a new one we're unfamiliar with was the way to do it.

[Felixon]

Just feel like having a little chat about her.

So when it came to 8.3, just about all the other leaders were against sylvanas except for her and gallywix, she stood on some kind of oath while everyone else figured out sylvanas was rotten already. But when she abandoned the horde, and she saw saurfangs sacrifice, she came around, and now dedicates herself to leading troops of mag'har though orgrimmar in search of sylvanas loyalists.

Theres also an internaction with her when she see's thrall and calls him go'el.

I forgot the fact she's in a technical level meant to be thralls sister, one alternate reality apart.

she also said at saurfangs funeral.



Glad for the fact she didn't end up following sylvanas in the end, thought she might end up a boss in a raid loyal to her.

Not that she had much of a choice. Why would somebody, who has at least tiny self respect, follow somebody, who treats them like a shit? It seems, that loyalists after all of this like to be treated in that way.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, they do give the Horde more story, it's just cannibalistic and self-destructive with no regard for the future. The Horde as a faction has burnt out. At this point the Horde needs heavy narrative focus just to replenish its stock.

The Horde just had narrative focus and achieved the aim the writers were after. It's at this point effectively run its course. Except for Thrall. Talanji and possibly Calia since she has crossover uses with Jaina and Anduin, the Horde can now slip back into the irrelevant pile it is in all neutral expansions.

And as it is in WC3 when you stop and think about it and realize that you could chop the orcs out of the story entirely and nothing about the overarching plot would change except fewer models to animate. Which is why in the expansion they only appear in their sideplot since their connection to the 'main story' of the Legion, Scourge, Illidan etc. are nill. Incidentally, that's the best thing that can be hoped for the Horde at the moment as well - a sideplot focused on it alone without any pretenses of cosmic relevance so that it can actually have manageable stakes and focus on the dynamics of the shambles left.

More likely, five guys with no super powers or ties with cosmic forces jabbering about honor will serve no purpose when there's people with identical sentiments as well as actual backstory and connection with the material it can focus on instead.

Lack of focus will serve the Mag'har well. The last thing we want is for Thrall to sporulate to them too and nullify the other 'good' takeaway from BFA for the Horde after Zandalari.

[Reinhart11]

Do you guys really want to see the current main writers create new important Horde characters? Do we really need more Sadfangs, Thralls, Lorthemars and characters like Baine? Because those are the kind of characters we will get from Golden, Afrasiabi and Danuser. Supposed leaders who love the Alliance more than their own people. Thats really not appealling to me at all.

[TickTickTick]

I loathe the faction war. I honestly can't understand any Horde fan who would ever want to be gutted like that ever again. Nor can I understand any fan who supports obvious villain batting, which only guarantees the Horde's loss.

The Horde only loses from war plots, every achievement of the Horde, every inch of progress, has been destroyed in faction wars.

We had the Dragonmaw for a bit. We had Nazgrim. We had Kor'kron. We had Cairne. Grom's son could have been cool if he wasn't designed to be the fall guy for the faction war. Even Vol'jin was sacrificed upon the altar of war. Now Sylvanas, Nathanos, Gallywix, and Saurfang have followed.

If this is what Warcraft has given me, if this is the only way Blizz will end a war, then give me Peacecraft and let us fucking rebuild.

BuT wHaT aBoUt ThE wAr In WaRcRaFt YoU dOn'T uNdErStAnD!!!! dOnT tRy To TaKe ThE cOrE oF tHe GaMe AwAy!!!!

[KrakHed]

Do you guys really want to see the current main writers create new important Horde characters? Do we really need more Sadfangs, Thralls, Lorthemars and characters like Baine? Because those are the kind of characters we will get from Golden, Afrasiabi and Danuser. Supposed leaders who love the Alliance more than their own people. Thats really not appealling to me at all.

Honestly, all of those characters are more than fine as long as they remain outside of the faction war setting, because we know from experience that the main writers at Blizzard are unwilling to portray an Alliance that is anything other than the purest of the pure. They aren't even fun to fight.

Evil Horde stories tend to necessitate characters going "traitor" by the end to justify their survival in the new regime once the faction stops getting villainbatted. It also forces them to lay back and do nothing while the Horde is busy doing evil, because the story simply wouldn't work if they actually did something. In short, the faction war forces the Horde leadership to be primarily spineless cowards, with how it's been written for years.

A good faction war wouldn't have ever needed to remove Thrall or Vol'jin to work. A faction war with Baine in charge would probably have been closer to a universally enjoyable experience, as he's not coded as a villain. Honestly, faction war fans should gave been demanding Baine for Warchief. That'd force the story to be at least a little complex.

- - - Updated - - -

BuT wHaT aBoUt ThE wAr In WaRcRaFt YoU dOn'T uNdErStAnD!!!! dOnT tRy To TaKe ThE cOrE oF tHe GaMe AwAy!!!!

If the faction war was going to be well written, it wouldn't need a Sylvanas or Garrosh. It wouldn't need a villain-coded character. If it was going to be good, they could use a character meant to be heroic.

- - - Updated - - -

The Horde just had narrative focus and achieved the aim the writers were after. It's at this point effectively run its course. Except for Thrall. Talanji and possibly Calia since she has crossover uses with Jaina and Anduin, the Horde can now slip back into the irrelevant pile it is in all neutral expansions.

The narrative focus the Horde got was largely on the dismantling of the "Evil Horde", so I can see why they shied away from building up too many characters as part of the "Evil Horde", since the less characters directly involved with that the better.

However, the Horde still has some minor advantage in a death-themed story. There's room to build rather than destroy. Of course, they were eager to redo MoP last time, but I think they completed their purge this time.

Honestly, I'm still convinced that BFA was a story that was forced upon the writing team and they deliberately destroyed everything that could lead into this kind of faction war again. How do you make an evil Warchief story if there's no Warchief and there's no evil leader? You can't. How can you drum up hype for a faction war if it always goes the same awful way? You can't.

If you look through twitter, the cinematics, and everything else, there's a massive difference between how the marketing portrays things and how the writing team does. The marketing was sucking Sylvanas's dick right up until the very end. We even have a fucking Sylvanas Murky still coming out, to represent the Warchief.

We saw the cinematics portray Sylvanas as a hero in Legion and BFA, while the ingame content cast her as more nefarious. There has been an obvious disconnect between "Sylvanas is obviously evil" and twitter using her as the face of the Horde and selling her as someone who would do anything to protect them.

So, I think that's what BFA has been. The writers deliberately making the war as unmarketable as possible, under the nose of their marketing team.

https://twitter.com/Warcraft/status/1049767064422952960

"This Horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us."

Declare your allegiance #ForTheHorde with our official Sylvanas statue.

They obviously weren't on the same page with her character. I get the feeling that the marketing team may have been surprised by this turn of events.

[Super Dickmann]

The narrative focus the Horde got was largely on the dismantling of the "Evil Horde", so I can see why they shied away from building up too many characters as part of the "Evil Horde", since the less characters directly involved with that the better.

However, the Horde still has some minor advantage in a death-themed story. There's room to build rather than destroy. Of course, they were eager to redo MoP last time, but I think they completed their purge this time.

Honestly, I'm still convinced that BFA was a story that was forced upon the writing team and they deliberately destroyed everything that could lead into this kind of faction war again. How do you make an evil Warchief story if there's no Warchief and there's no evil leader? You can't. How can you drum up hype for a faction war if it always goes the same awful way? You can't.

This is all true, as is the bit about how the writing team hated having to do a faction war expansion and resolved to cram their incorrigible message instead at the expense of cutting out one of the core pillars of the game and the customer tricked into buying something different from the product sold. It's also an abysmal choice.

What the Horde is left with at the end of the day is jack shit. Every one of its characters except again, Talanji, and possibly Thrall is superfluous to any on-going story. Why would you have Baine, who's sole character trait is that he's the Horde's Anduin and acts like him, when you can just put Anduin, a far more developed character with more links to the on-going setting? Why would you include any of the like two remaining A-list orcs when you demonstrably didn't even when the expansion was about their biggest bad in Legion?

What is the ideological difference between the Horde and Alliance? I don't just mean good and bad, though that's a given at this point. I mean in terms of core ideology and place in the world. The Horde are no longer shamanistic noblesavages in their majority, some are, but they have like three characters between them. What separates the nu-undead, blood elves and nightborne from being Alliance races? That they wear red, presumably. Is it that they're put-upon underdogs? No, they're a world power who is on best terms with the only other world power and laughable superior to every other group out in the world. The only ones they're lesser to are cosmic baddies who are top dog by default, so they're above the alliance too. Is it that they're honorable, whatever that means? No, the entire expansion was about equalizing Horde and Alliance to get across that what binds them together is their shared adherence to honor, something that every leader of every race except I guess Tyrande subscribes to and indicates an identical flawless lawful good ethos that is tolerant of everything and proactive about nothing. Is it even that they're not an alliance of races but some kind of centralized entity, based on orcish culture? Lord no, the Warchief seat is gone, now they're an alliance united by shared values to hold onto what they have. A large alliance, in fact one that includes Lordaeron. A Grand Alliance of Lordaeron, you might even say.

Thus lacking any distinguishing traits, seeds for future conflict and with a cast that's dwarfed just by notable human characters alone, what is the purpose of the Horde? Why would it appear in stories, when it didn't in prior neutral expansions when it had a more robust cast? Why would any writer use a Horde character when an Alliance character shares all the same relevant traits except surface aesthetic, but in their majority have simply been around for longer and have ties with more storylines and recurring elements? Purely from the standpoint of which tool I'd want to use when telling a story, even as a Horde partisan, it'd be the Alliance. They simply fill all the niches the Horde do and then some, and have more to work with on top of that. The sole exception is again, Talanji and Zandalar.

[Sondrelk]

This is all true, as is the bit about how the writing team hated having to do a faction war expansion and resolved to cram their incorrigible message instead at the expense of cutting out one of the core pillars of the game and the customer tricked into buying something different from the product sold. It's also an abysmal choice.

The problem with the faction war story in this expansion i think can be summed up in the cinematic of Anduin talking to Saurfang on that tower near Theramore.

Saurfang is sad about his bruised honor, then he brings up the legitimate points of grievances that one migth have with the Horde. That despite them sputing honor every time they are prodded like a wind up toy, their legacy is built on murder and dishonorable conduct, bringing up the path of glory that the Horde used to invade Azeroth with the intent of killing everything there for no good reason than their leaders said so.

Anduin at that point has a golden (pun intended) opportunity to show the good sides of idealism, and either talk about how the Horde can still choose to be good by bringing up times they did the honorable thing at risk to themselves, or lampshade his own idealism by saying how he chooses to believe them, and that it is up to them to prove the naysayers wrong.

But instread we get Anduin shifintg the topic over to Arthas and how clearly Arthas becoming evil is exactly the same as the Horde going on endless crusades of murder seemingly just because they can.


At least the Faction war story should be over by now, would have preferred if the final raid had us defeating Sylvanas so we could end it completely, but i guess we have to see some scraps of the conflict when we eventually fight her again.

[KrakHed]

Thus lacking any distinguishing traits, seeds for future conflict and with a cast that's dwarfed just by notable human characters alone, what is the purpose of the Horde? Why would it appear in stories, when it didn't in prior neutral expansions when it had a more robust cast? Why would any writer use a Horde character when an Alliance character shares all the same relevant traits except surface aesthetic, but in their majority have simply been around for longer and have ties with more storylines and recurring elements? Purely from the standpoint of which tool I'd want to use when telling a story, even as a Horde partisan, it'd be the Alliance. They simply fill all the niches the Horde do and then some, and have more to work with on top of that. The sole exception is again, Talanji and Zandalar.

That's pretty much exactly why the Horde needs some major rebuilding effort. Right now, I feel like it's still possible to tell an interesting story with the Horde, but it's going to be hard.

From a writing standpoint, the current Horde is actually very appealing in its own way, precisely because of how small its cast is and how damaged its identity. This is a Horde in which Lilian Voss was somehow able to become a prominent character, in which Zelling would have been loved if he hadn't been killed off immediately. The Alliance cast is so bloated, its identity so rigid, that it's impossible to make a mark on it.

But on the Horde side? Your dumb OC could become a defining part of its identity for years to come. You could make a faction leader at the snap of a finger. You could make the next big Orc hero, the next face of the Forsaken, and so on. If I wanted to create something new, I'd write for the Horde.

The next elite organization could be your creation. You could make a pooled elite army from the forces of the different council members or something to reflect the change in leadership style.

[Super Dickmann]

But instread we get Anduin shifintg the topic over to Arthas and how clearly Arthas becoming evil is exactly the same as the Horde going on endless crusades of murder seemingly just because they can.

Saurfang's self-awareness is a double-edged sword. It's a good bit of character for him and him admitting he lacks honor takes him a bit away from the ridiculously idealized role he's given both before and after he got his ticket out of this rubbish. But it's also self-defeating. What's being said, in plain terms is that the legacy of the Horde, messy as it is, is wrong in its entirety, that the ones who are willing to fight against a representation of that legacy, by Saurfang's admission are 'so few', and that the Horde needs its spirits lifted and its morals shaped by Anduin, who understands just how good they can be better than they can and who knows honor more than they do. No wonder that the resolution of the conflict is the oldest Horde institution biting the big one.

It's not that Saurfang is wrong, indeed, he's far more realistic than Anduin throughout it all, it's that because he's right, the only route left for the Horde to take is to shed its origins, fully adopt everything about its geopolitical nemesis and only keep that ever so marketable name and icon, while simultaneously being robbed of all agency. "You didn't mean to be bad, Sylvanas made you do it" "You're not responsible for torching children or supporting someone who did for all this time, here's your get out of jail free card because if you experienced any consequences, we'd be as bad as the one who cooked those kids in the first place." All topped off by the moral equivalence drawn between Arthas and Daelin, a guy who turned basically alone and had to kill people to join him as his undead slaves, and one rejected by the Alliance even after having far more to work with, with the majority of the Horde many times over siding with the villainous Warchief of the month.
@KrakHed

The Horde and Alliance identities are equally as rigid, because they are the same in all relevant aspects except aesthetic. The thing with Lilian is a damning indictment of what it took to get here - every single Forsaken character, from Lydon and Faranell for the R.A.S to Belmont as the dark comedy special agent dude to fucking Helcular and his rod that gets all the dark rangers in the yard had to either vanish or only make the most token of appearances to put Lilian where she is now. Is current Lilian a good character? Sure, if you forego the part where she immediately looks for a cult figure for her and the undead to worship, presumably because she regrets missing out on the Sylvanas cult. But she isn't worth what it took to get here.

The same can be said of the orcs. We have fewer notable orc characters than we did in Vanilla, with the B-listers all being AWOL and the A-listers consisting only of Thrall and Eitrigg. The tauren switched lost Cairne and kept Baine. The trolls are left with just Rokhan, etc, etc.

As said, the only good thing that can come here is to let the Alliance hog the cosmic spotlight and have the Horde have a separate, Founding of Durotar-esque story where it's rebuilt from the shitheap it is now. But this ain't gonna happen.

[Sondrelk]

Saurfang's self-awareness is a double-edged sword. It's a good bit of character for him and him admitting he lacks honor takes him a bit away from the ridiculously idealized role he's given both before and after he got his ticket out of this rubbish. But it's also self-defeating. What's being said, in plain terms is that the legacy of the Horde, messy as it is, is wrong in its entirety, that the ones who are willing to fight against a representation of that legacy, by Saurfang's admission are 'so few', and that the Horde needs its spirits lifted and its morals shaped by Anduin, who understands just how good they can be better than they can and who knows honor more than they do. No wonder that the resolution of the conflict is the oldest Horde institution biting the big one.

The core problem here is that there is not a moment in BfA where the Horde is actually forced to deal with the consequences of their actions. Where the quests where Moonglade bars Horde from entry, or Alliance takes revenge as Horde veterans desperately try to convince themselves that they were in the right, or that they were simply following orders.

Instead we get an expansion of the Horde being perfectly willing with genocide and murder until suddenly they are not supposed to be anymore, whereupon Anduin absolves them of all guilt.

[KrakHed]

@KrakHed

The Horde and Alliance identities are equally as rigid, because they are the same in all relevant aspects except aesthetic. The thing with Lilian is a damning indictment of what it took to get here - every single Forsaken character, from Lydon and Faranell for the R.A.S to Belmont as the dark comedy special agent dude to fucking Helcular and his rod that gets all the dark rangers in the yard had to either vanish or only make the most token of appearances to put Lilian where she is now. Is current Lilian a good character? Sure, if you forego the part where she immediately looks for a cult figure for her and the undead to worship, presumably because she regrets missing out on the Sylvanas cult. But she isn't worth what it took to get here.

The same can be said of the orcs. We have fewer notable orc characters than we did in Vanilla, with the B-listers all being AWOL and the A-listers consisting only of Thrall and Eitrigg. The tauren switched lost Cairne and kept Baine. The trolls are left with just Rokhan, etc, etc.

As said, the only good thing that can come here is to let the Alliance hog the cosmic spotlight and have the Horde have a separate, Founding of Durotar-esque story where it's rebuilt from the shitheap it is now. But this ain't gonna happen.

I'm not calling it a good thing. I'm not even calling Lilian a good character. Her taking a prominent position was possible because there's no characters in prominent positions on the Forsaken. There are some good old ones who were popular, but that itself reflect my point. The Forsaken have few enough prominent characters that decently written quest NPCs can become quite memorable quite easily.

If every quest writer started throwing in their shitty OCs for quest chains, and brought them back for repeat appearances, they'd have the next big thing on their hands easily. Some random fan of Helcular, if on the quest writing team, could turn him huge.

[Dagoth Ur]

But on the Horde side? Your dumb OC could become a defining part of its identity for years to come. You could make a faction leader at the snap of a finger. You could make the next big Orc hero, the next face of the Forsaken, and so on. If I wanted to create something new, I'd write for the Horde.

Why they'd even go through this whole personality purification process with the Horde, if their plan really is to write interesting stories for the Horde. By interesting I'm thinking of stories that enable conflicts, both inter-faction and outward, which is something Horde always did better than Alliance and was part of its appeal in the first place.

I might be pessimistic, but looking at the cast we're left with and new characters introduced, I really doubt they'd be introducing anyone new and it all just looks to me like a giant setup for Avengers of Azeroth kind of story lines we're possibly be getting in the future.