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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenais View Post
    The Alliance leaders, after BoD, state that the war is soon to be over, if memory serves. The same sentiment is shared on the Horde side, judging from the content of this thread (I didn't play on the Horde side, so taking this with a pinch of salt is recommended). That implies that the Alliance is not only winning on sea, but also on the ground. Nobody sane would send all their navy after a single asset (in this case, Nathanos), so we can't even assume that the Alliance lost all or nearly all of its naval force when Azshara moved the waters above Nazjatar - I mean, even the cinematic shows just a few ships.
    Only one assuming is you. The canonical account states: the alliance fleet was sent after Nathanos. Not part of the alliance fleet, not a few ships of the alliance fleet, the alliance fleet.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    Before Azshara, the Alliance was winning on every front. All the fronts in the war are on the land. So even if Azshara destroyed a huge portion of the Alliance fleet, why should it have impacted the Alliance's war effort in said land warfronts like Arathi and Darkshore? I mean, the Alliance was winning on every front (as reports from every Horde outpost said), and they didn't need their fleet to win ON LAND. So them losing their fleet shouldn't have magically increased the size of the Horde army while at the same time drastically handicapping the Alliance. Plotholes, plotholes, and even more plotholes. That's what BfA is.
    fleets resupply the far off lands.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    fleets resupply the far off lands.
    Lands which were already heavily leaning towards the Alliance as per the 8.1.5 Nathanos statement.

    Besides, it's not like the Alliance has several means of teleporting supplies and armies (cough cough Jaina, Vindicaar/Aurobos, Void elves cough cough).
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Niter View Post
    Still, the Horde was able to push back the Night Elves in their ancestral home, which happened because Blizzard willed it.
    The Night elves invaded Ashenvale around the time WoW started. Teldrassil was only 20 years old at the time of burning.

    And the "ancestors" of the elves are the trolls, so any ancestral home they may have is troll-lands and therefore belong to the Horde.
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    The Alliance were winning because they killed a cursed Troll king by the skin of their teeth after using a diversion to draw the Horde forces up to an empty swamp? And then got routed while fleeing?
    They were winning because they completely obliterated the Zandalari fleet that was the sole purpose of the Horde trying to recruit the Zandalari in the first place. Several of Nathanos' quotes on board the ship are "We NEED the Zandalari fleet!" and "The Alliance will overrun us in weeks without that fleet." To be honest the Alliance could have blown up the fleet and just walked away and been better off.

    From here on out keep in mind the differences between the Horde and Alliance versions of the raid. In the Horde version it's claimed that Greymane ordered Rastakhan to surrender, break ties with the Horde, and hand over Talanji as a hostage. If they'd succeeded in THAT then nothing short of deus ex machina could've saved the Horde. When that failed the hope was killing Rastakhan would lead the Zandalari to thinking the Horde was more trouble than they were worth and break off from them. What ended up happening was the opposite.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by KaPe View Post
    He didn't say Garithos - if he did, it would at least make some sense. It was Arthas and Daelin.Zandalari fleet was blown up before the attack on their capital. Did you conveniently "forget" about the cinematic where Mekkatorque nearly dies while pressing the comically oversized detonator?

    Plus, after that attack concludes, the Horde leadership directly states that the Alliance is close to victory. So unless they are lying to their own allies for no reason, the Alliance was in dominant position, but somehow lost all that advantage off-screen.
    Talanji destroyed the entire alliance fleet, before they went to get the Kultiran one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHQfH56TAWU

    You're citing an alliance only cutscene there, the Horde is barely informed that it happened in game. But keep in mind as well that it is not the entire Zandalari fleet, as multiple ships chase Jaina afterward. The remaining Zandalari and Kultiran ships (used in the Jaina encounter) are all destroyed when going to Nazjatar.



    So in summary:
    1. Horde fleet - small, gone or unimportant in late Legion/early BFA

    2. Alliance fleet - destroyed by Talanji in opening of BFA
    2.2 Horde gains Zandalari fleet
    2.5 Horde dominates seas -- Alliance nearly defeated worldwide
    2.7 Jaina finds Kultiran fleet

    3. Zandalari fleet - mostly destroyed in BoD
    3.5 Alliance dominates seas -- Alliance begins winning the war for a short time

    4. Kultiran fleet - destroyed in Nazjatar, along with few remaining Zandalari ships


    So no one has any ships left now and both factions had equal times "winning" the war due to controlling the seas. However, Alliance suffered two major battle defeats at Teldrassil and Lordaeron, the Horde had no major lost battles. Ergo Horde has superior numbers and is winning the war, prior to traitors plot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    They were winning because they completely obliterated the Zandalari fleet that was the sole purpose of the Horde trying to recruit the Zandalari in the first place. Several of Nathanos' quotes on board the ship are "We NEED the Zandalari fleet!" and "The Alliance will overrun us in weeks without that fleet." To be honest the Alliance could have blown up the fleet and just walked away and been better off.

    From here on out keep in mind the differences between the Horde and Alliance versions of the raid. In the Horde version it's claimed that Greymane ordered Rastakhan to surrender, break ties with the Horde, and hand over Talanji as a hostage. If they'd succeeded in THAT then nothing short of deus ex machina could've saved the Horde. When that failed the hope was killing Rastakhan would lead the Zandalari to thinking the Horde was more trouble than they were worth and break off from them. What ended up happening was the opposite.
    Then:

    1. Why not stop after destroying the fleet instead of killing a king who didn't matter, at great cost to the alliance?
    2. How did the Horde pursue the alliance fleet and defeat Jaina?


    The fraction of the Zandalari fleet that was guarding the port was destroyed, which was most of the fleet but not all of it. The rest of both the ZD and KT fleets were destroyed at Nazjatar.
    Snarky: Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse.

  7. #127
    How big is the population of the kingdom of Stormwind?
    Theres decades of constant war and many losses of manpower and there seems to be only one big city in the whole kingdom.....

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    Plotholes, plotholes, and even more plotholes. That's what Warcraft is.
    Fixed that for you. It's written like a comic book where the big moments and developments take precedence over consistency, and gameplay considerations reign above all. You can have a race that's had 90% of their people killed, then whittled down over years of constant war, then a large number of them genocided in Dalaran... THEN a number of those people break off and become a new race and that race is now numerous and present everywhere. Why? Because it's more cool to see them bopping around doing stuff than visiting a group of 7 of them huddled in a corner afraid to go extinct.

    So WoW logic: Having a war is cool. Having varied locales is cool. Having the balance ebb and flow back and forth is cool. Have some fights and events that happen because reasons. Maybe we'll make some video cutscenes or write a book where the characters pontificate about their loved ones or right and wrong... but save that for outside gameplay because it's a drag.

    That's been Warcraft since their first attempt to be story driven (imo WC3). That game is packed full of inconsistency and plotholes and no one cared then.

  9. #129
    Same as some mentioned before. It's kinda 'drama building move'. Ofcourse Alliance lost some soldiers during sige of Lordaeron, in battle for Stromgarde etc. but same does Horde.

    And try to look on bigger picture. Do you remember Siege of Orgrimmar? THE Orgrimmar? As Gazlow said: "Orgrimmar! The impenetrable fortress!" To bring down walls of Orgrimmar and go through army of Garrosh we needed both Alliance and Vol'jin Revolutionary(mostly Horde). So I think that what Anduin means by "(...)enough for one final strike."

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    They al caught yellow fever in Zandalar.
    I would actually be ok with that IF they said that in the game. This fucking verse has a ton of horrific bugs and diseases, it's not too far out there to be a reasonable reason for them to lose so many troops.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boomzy
    People just want to be bullies without facing any sort of consequences or social fallout for being a bully. If you declare X as a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. person you can say or do whatever you want to them, ignoring the fact that they are a human.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    Am I missing something? What happened?
    Did the battle against Azshara dwindle all their numbers or what?
    The troops went to the same land where the reason Garrosh went barking-mad at the Alliance went to - somewhere over the narrative convenience rainbow that good writers never dare venture to...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aestholus View Post
    How big is the population of the kingdom of Stormwind?
    Theres decades of constant war and many losses of manpower and there seems to be only one big city in the whole kingdom.....
    It's certainly bigger than the Orc population - they were a small group of prisoners escaped on stolen ships, yet somehow have enough manpower to wage multiple wars without ever slowing down and being the main part of the Horde.

    Population numbers never made any sense. All races should be nearly extinct by continuously fighting against themselves, Burning Legion, Scourge, Deathwing, Old Gods and dozen other threats in the last decade alone.

    However, in this specific case, the story itself notes that one side has an advantage in the war, which then completely dissapears off-screen. We know what's the non-lore reason - making sure that both sides are on equal footing in future expansions - but there's no real in story explanation of that.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    The Night elves invaded Ashenvale around the time WoW started. Teldrassil was only 20 years old at the time of burning.

    And the "ancestors" of the elves are the trolls, so any ancestral home they may have is troll-lands and therefore belong to the Horde.
    You are absolutely incorrect. Did you know that Xavius had a tower in Ashenvale (I guess you remember who he is)? What about the War of the Satyrs?

    Did you play Warcraft 3? When the Orcs invaded the forest, and were repelled by the Night Elves? That happened before the WoW timeline.

    You also have quite a faulty logic at best. Trolls are very different from other races in that they were once the most populous race, but they were very different and there are several troll subspecies. One of them happened to evolve and become Night Elves. That species no longer exists as trolls, they are the Kaldorei now.

    If we followed the same logic you used, nothing should belong to the Horde, as the Orcs are the only race that truly shines in the Horde and they are from Draenor, they are not native to Azeroth. If there were such thing as 'Night Elves were trolls so they should get nothing', then the same argument must be made against the entire Horde, as the Orcs are not an Azerothian race.

    And no matter how we try to spin it, the Tauren were losing against the Centaur and could have been destroyed if it were not for the Orcs. The Darkspear Trolls were almost a dying tribe of Trolls, and would probably have been vanquished if it were not for the Orcs.

    The Forsaken, the Night Elves and the Blood Elves would not even be part of any one faction if the Orcs had not invaded Azeroth, so even their territories would have never belonged to any notion of the Horde simply because the Horde could not have come to be if Thrall had never existed.

    It is safe to say that you were completely off about Ashenvale, and your logic in regard to whatever should belong to the Horde in this case is incorrect.
    Last edited by Niter; 2019-10-16 at 05:17 AM.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Niter View Post
    Did you play Warcraft 3? When the Orcs invaded the forest, and were repelled by the Night Elves? That happened before the WoW timeline.
    While that guy saying Elves Invaded Ashenvale is wrong, you are also wrong about who's ancestral lands are where: Elves evolved from Trolls long before the Sundering, it's before-recorded history stuff. But even then, Trolls, all kinds, are the original sapient race of Azeroth. The Darkspear itself is made up of Dark, Forest & Ice troll tribes that were destroyed or displaced by other factions. Orcs may have originated the name "horde" but Trolls & Tauren lived in what is known as Kalimdor before the Night Elves settled on Hyjal after the Sundering, they explicitly displaced the Shadowtooth tribe, the Dark Trolls who lived on Hyjal, when they settled there.

  15. #135
    THEN a number of those people break off and become a new race and that race is now numerous and present everywhere. Why? Because it's more cool to see them bopping around doing stuff than visiting a group of 7 of them huddled in a corner afraid to go extinct.
    The Ren'dorei, you mean? I disagree. They are not everywhere. In BfA they only participated in the Battle of Lordaeron, the Assault of Zuldazar, and the Suicide Mission in Nazmir. It's not too much screentime.

    I agree with the rest.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deathknightish View Post
    Am I missing something? What happened?
    Yes what you missed is that narrative always sucked in WoW, it's just more apparent now.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by bullseyed View Post
    Then:

    1. Why not stop after destroying the fleet instead of killing a king who didn't matter, at great cost to the alliance?
    2. How did the Horde pursue the alliance fleet and defeat Jaina?

    The fraction of the Zandalari fleet that was guarding the port was destroyed, which was most of the fleet but not all of it. The rest of both the ZD and KT fleets were destroyed at Nazjatar.
    1. Like you said, most of the fleet was still intact. If they were successful in their plan to get Rastakhan to capitulate they take that weapon out of the Horde's hands.
    2. Not quite sure what you mean. The raid made it pretty obvious. The Alliance forces were in the city first, took most of it while fighting their way to Rastakhan. Horde forces arrived, fought their way from the north to Rastakhan but didn't reach him before the Alliance did and killed him. Then the Alliance fled south to their ships and the Horde persued them.

  18. #138
    The Lightbringer MrHappy's Avatar
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    A lot died as you entered Nazjatar and most of Greymane and Tyrande's troops would not be present anyways.

  19. #139
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Status quo patrol members are cruel masters. Sometimes (aka almost always) they beat horde. But sometimes its alliance that gets "Health walk".

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Ersula View Post
    While that guy saying Elves Invaded Ashenvale is wrong, you are also wrong about who's ancestral lands are where: Elves evolved from Trolls long before the Sundering, it's before-recorded history stuff. But even then, Trolls, all kinds, are the original sapient race of Azeroth. The Darkspear itself is made up of Dark, Forest & Ice troll tribes that were destroyed or displaced by other factions. Orcs may have originated the name "horde" but Trolls & Tauren lived in what is known as Kalimdor before the Night Elves settled on Hyjal after the Sundering, they explicitly displaced the Shadowtooth tribe, the Dark Trolls who lived on Hyjal, when they settled there.
    I agree with you. Trolls once ruled over Azeroth, although I could say that any races evolving will be likely to displace their parent race, just like Sapiens displaced their living human ancestors, and that does not make their claim to some lands less legitimate as they are not aliens. Most of my previous answer aimed at removing the idea that factions should own territories. They do not. Several races, as you pointed out, predate whatever notions of Horde and Alliance by more than millennia.

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