Broxigar vs Sylvanas

[Poisons]

Chronicles> all

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No, stop talking nonsense
Thrall lost Doomhammer because he was disappointed in himself, it wasn’t that the Elements turned away from him

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I'm not sure who is stronger than Broxigar or Fel Grom

This whole thread I've been thinking the same. A better match up would be fully buffed Grom vs fully buffed Broxigar.

[Mehrunes]

i don't think she could get away with flying through him, i feel like the axe would tear her banshee form apart due to the fact that's coursing with life energy.

If she can fly through flesh, there's no reason to assume she can't fly through other solid matter. Meaning she could fly into the ground and then take Saurfang by surprise. Plus given the latest cinematic, she can fly comically fast if she wants to so even if it was head on, could Brox swing his axe in time?

she'd need to rely on her speed and bow, i don't think she'd be stupid enough to try to cross blades with him.

Don't underestimate Blizzard when it comes to making Sylvanas stupid in a fight when it's convenient for the plot.

but what that other person said is also true, broxigar likely far outclasses arthas as a warrior could potentially slice her arrows out of the air. but how much of that was frostmourne guiding arthas' hand and not his own skill? every time arthas failed at melee combat, it was frostmourne's sentience that saved his ass, like when fighting anasterian and illidan.

Eh, Brox was massively carried by his weapon as well. And unlike Arthas's, Axe of Cenarius had no sentience to bail him out. Plus with how bulky Orcs are, agility and speed are not on his side when it comes to slicing flying arrows.

also, undead Sylvanas doesnt shoot regular arrows like Ranger-General Sylvanas, she has all kinds of arrows, including Black Arrows, and whatever explosion it is that sent Malfurion slamming through trees

She also has Blight-infused arrows and poisoned ones (though the latter are unlikely to be allowed in a Mak'gora).

People act like she has been that powerful all along, like I said before if she was then she probably would have crushed Genn and she would be immortal.

Have you missed the part where Sylvanas was toying with him just like she was toying with Saurfang? Making backflips over your opponents isn't exactly a normal way to fight. Besides, Genn still ended up surviving that fight only because Sylvanas got amnesia and forgot he was even there as he got poisoned by her and dropped unconscious. And couldn't even scratch her while landing a direct hit on her face.

Broxigar may be strong but no mere mortal can defeat Sylvanas' enchanted plot armor.

The character that has to constantly gargle on the idiot ball and forget about the majority of her powers (or about her enemies even existing as was in the case of her duel with Genn) for the characters that Blizzard wants to survive a fight with her to actually do so is totes legit wearing plot armor. Wait, no, that described her opponents more than her.

It does not matter. Axe of Cenarius was strong enough to break through the shield of Elune. Even Archimonde with the help of the highborne (who had the Well of Eternity) could not do this. Brox will easily be able to cut the arrows of Sylvanas. We are talking about Brox with the Axe of Cenarius.

Is Brox suddenly an anime or Arrow character to be able to cut arrows in flight?

In a mak'gora, they can only have one set of weapons. If she used a bow, she wouldn't be able to use her swords to deflect attacks, meaning she'd shoot him with a couple arrows but then be vulnerable if the orc weathered them, which is fairly likely.

As seen in both Legion and BfA cinematics, Sylvanas shits out arrows at frequency of less than a second. Ones that explode with enough force to take down a siege tower. And with typical Elven precision (as seen when she strikes her target on point even when making nonsensical backflips to show off). Brox would be a pin cushion (well, if the arrows didn't explode, that is) before he'd be able to tell her how much he wants to die in combat.

Also, the one weapon is a rule in a traditional Mak'gora and the only time anyone bothered with that is the one between Garrosh vs Cairne because Garrosh was weird like that.

If she used blades, she'd likely deflect them for a time but not forever. That would be an interesting fight, but not one where she had a clear advantage.

If she chose blades and started to use her brain in a fight for once in her life, she could use the fact she'd have a range disadvantage compared to Brox's axe as bait and turn incorporeal when he attacked her to make his attack fly through her and force him off balance, then stab him in the face.

Again, in a Mak'gora, stuff such as using magic and utilizing poison arrows would be forbidden. Obviously in a fight where anything goes, it would be different, but since we were comparing this to Sylvanas's fight with Saurfang, I assumed we were talking about mak'gora style battle.

Magic isn't forbidden even in a traditional Mak'gora, let alone normal ones. We've seen at least three Mak'goras where magic was used and no one complained. Even though two out of those three had plenty of witnesses. And with magic on her side Sylvanas doesn't even have to bother with her kamehameha. She can literally scream him to death.

The claim that Sylvanas's plot armor has protected her was tongue in cheek, but the amount of times Sylvanas and the forsaken have steamrolled victories effortlessly is comical, especially in Cataclysm. It has no relationship to this kind of theoretical battle, but I felt like tossing it out there, because why the hell not. If you're laughing at it, then it did it's job.

Was it effortlessly though? The war for Gilneas went back and forth multiple times. And Alliance wasn't exactly in big brain mode when fighting her. When they helped Gilneas out, they sent only non-human part of the 7th Legion. I mean, in that case there was at least medium brain included, because hey, Sylvanas could only resurrect humans at the time so at least some dots had been connected. But sending only a part of an army when they had nothing to counter the Blight with was rather questionable. They should have at least sent other non-human forces as well instead of just 7th Legion non-human members to try to win with numbers. In WPL the Alliance force consisted almost primarily of peasants from Westfall. Who were sent there to a three way fight between them, Forsaken and the Scourge after Southshore already fell, robbing them of any supply routes (and even then Koltira managed to almost lose it, forcing Sylvanas to sacrifice a Val'kyr).

And in places where Alliance wasn't making weird decisions, they were simply too weak. In Arathi they are fighting against the shattered remains of Stromgarde, who already lost control of most of their city to Trolls, Ogres and the Syndicate. With Forsaken having inside knowledge from Galen. And then they got fucked over by him. In before-Cata Hillsbrad they Blighted Southshore with strain so strong it surprised even the Forsaken and ruined their plans for the place as they couldn't even clean it. Leaving only Hillsbrad town.

Their cleanest win was Hillsbrad as shown in game where they fought Bloodfang's Pack and Stormpikes, where Alliance actually had some advantage as most Forsaken forces were elsewhere. Only for the Forsaken to then lose against Quel'Danil Lodge in Hinterlands out of all things.

The fact that you are pretending that Sylvanas is some kind of unkillable god-like being, that a battle with one of the most legendary orcs in lore wouldn't be a good fight and wouldn't be one-sided in favor of Sylvanas is pretty "laughable" in and of itself, though, not going to lie. I didn't say that Sylvanas would lose, I just said that it wouldn't be a one-sided fight, and for some reason that has you up in arms. That's pretty funny, TBH.

Broxigar is still a warrior. One whose legend comes in 99% from the axe he wielded that was blessed with the magic of an entire continent. He had no special agility to allow him to avoid arrows from one of the best archers in Azerothian history (and that's without even taking into an account the plethora of things Sylvanas' arrows have been shown to do over the years). One whose bones have no special hardness that we know of allowing him to survive Sylvanas' bone-shattering wail. One who has no resistances against Sylvanas' magic that allows her to kamehameha people to death or kill them by just flying through their bodies.

There's a reason why I said that Blizzard forces Sylvanas to forget the majority of her powers in combat when they want her target to live through that fight. And there's a reason why they have to do so in the first place. Because they did give her a ridiculous power set that they only added to over the years. One that makes her too well rounded in a fight and gives her too many ways of decimating her enemies before harm even comes her way. Even Anduin was scared of her (while meeting her on a peaceful occasion) and he has Light with all its protection on speed dial through his magical bones.

Good one. Do you actually believe that? Have you been playing the game and following the story? Are you pretending that she had this kind of auto-win power by default or something? Just curious.

Technically, she was breaking armor and bones on an army scale with just her voice before she even got her physical body back. When it comes to auto-win abilities Sylvanas was already stocked from the moment of her resurrection. Besides, @General Zanjin's point was that even if her kamehameha is a new development, it wouldn't have come from Old Gods but from Shadowlands (whether from some entity within it or from the realm itself is up in the air for now).

What we have here is yet another contradiction between what we see in-game and a novel. I wouldn't be surprised,that writers write one thing and the game creators in game add the other thing and eventually nobody checks it. This one would need a simple clarification from the Blizzard - would be nice if somebody would ask at the Blizzcon who is superior at that point - Malfurion or Sylvanas and who would have won. In this expansion, we have seen too much of a bullcrap considering the lore, and it seems,that another volume of Chronicles is needed to cover all the shit they have written.

I know it's a contradiction. Kinda my point. The thing is, the novel came later. And since Blizzard offered no such clarification like what you talked about, the general rule of "newer lore beats older lore in case of conflict" applies. And if memory serves me right, people that ask questions on Blizzcon submit them prior to the actual thing, with Blizzard accepting them or not upfront. That was one of the reasons why "is this an out of season April fools joke" question created such a fuss. Because the guy went off script. And for some reason I doubt Blizzard as it is right now would accept questions that point out their tragic relationship with the concept of consistency. So yeah, we'll have to wait for the Chronicle to cover that, I think.

Blizzard has always built Malfurion as one of the most powerful characters in the whole Warcraft - just remember what he could complete in Warcraft III. We have known about his power levels, while Sylvanas is getting more and more super powers without a single explanation - as if she could do that all the time since she became the Banshee Queen. If Malfurion became weaker, then Blizzard should give it an explanation, if Sylvanas gets new powers, it should also be explained. But you have to agree,that the way they give new powers to the long existing characters at this moment in just moronic. Right now, as I mentioned earlier, it's as bad as Batman vs Superman.

I'd say Malf getting weaker is probably a part of their effort to deknaakify the setting as Knaak threw power levels around in his novels as if he was writing a Dragon Ball book. As for Sylvanas, the issue is that they don't even need to give her new powers to make her appear threatening. They simply need to pay attention to what they already wrote about her for once. She was breaking people's bones and armor while silencing spell casting at the same time (on an army scale no less) with her voice alone shortly after her resurrection, before she even got her physical body back. And how does one defend against magical voice breaking your bones? Crawl as a mangled mess towards other affected people and form flesh Voltron? Though I reckon we will get an explanation for Sylvanas next expansion. My personal theory is that Sylvanas isn't serving some death entity but used the souls she sacrificed in the war to empower herself (and plans to become a death entity like Helya).

Ppl like to forget that Sylvanas new power no one knew about, even in-game they clearly state that Sylvanas isn't supposed to be that powerful, no one was expecting her to win in honest duel against Saurfang (she did cheat, but she still dominated him even before cheating), yet she surprised everyone with new powers that buffed her both physically and magically

Riiiight. That's why Thrall told Varok he can't win even before anyone knew about her new spell. And using magic isn't cheating.

no it is... as we saw stated very clearly in The Shattering, also blizz never gave official answer, Thrall 'win' against Garrosh is why he lost his doomhammer
then again blizz can always sh8tcon their own lore for whatever this exp wants
But i doubt if magic was allowed anyone would let Saurfang duel Sylvanas then, she would win for sure and since he represent the rebels that means the rebels have lost and should surrender, something 100% no one in rebel leaders would allowed (if Thrall agrees, maybe Anduin, rest of alliance won't)

The Shattering says nothing about magic when it listed the rules for a Mak'gora. And even then, it listed rules for a traditional one and neither side made a demand for a traditional Mak'gora in the fight between Saurfang and Sylvanas.

[darkoms]

Is Brox suddenly an anime or Arrow character to be able to cut arrows in flight?











I'd say Malf getting weaker is probably a part of their effort to deknaakify the setting as Knaak threw power levels around in his novels as if he was writing a Dragon Ball book. As for Sylvanas, the issue is that they don't even need to give her new powers to make her appear threatening. They simply need to pay attention to what they already wrote about her for once. She was breaking people's bones and armor while silencing spell casting at the same time (on an army scale no less) with her voice alone shortly after her resurrection, before she even got her physical body back. And how does one defend against magical voice breaking your bones? Crawl as a mangled mess towards other affected people and form flesh Voltron? Though I reckon we will get an explanation for Sylvanas next expansion. My personal theory is that Sylvanas isn't serving some death entity but used the souls she sacrificed in the war to empower herself (and plans to become a death entity like Helya).

Arthas could and for him it was pretty easy. Why can't Broxigar?
When Sylvanas broke bones with one scream, she was connected to the Lich King. Knaak's books are still canon, but Malfurion is portrayed much weaker in the game for balance.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

Sylvanas wins easily with low diff either by one shotting him with her newfound powers or outclassing him in a man to man duel. Her reflexes, agility, and experience are way beyond his and she has enough strength to parry even a powerful orc like Saurfang. She can easily defeat beings that are leagues above Broxigar so either way it'll be a easy fight for the Banshee Queen.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

This is a Lore problem for me. The Saurfang v Sylvanas thing had me pretty clueless. I know Warriors have a generic name, but damn they are still supposed to be more powerful than that. He was lightly hitting her with an axe, and an old banshee/corpse was easily able to block and parry everything.

The OPs question sort of falls in the same realm. Would Broxigar just run at her???

[Felixon]

@Mehrunes Well, Malfurion was struck during the Legion, when he was quite helpless against Xavius - though, as I understand, the main explanation back then was that he was quite powerless against him because of the corruption surrounding the area (yet,Malfurion managed to beat and imprison Xavius before?). Now,he received yet another blow - the novel portrays, that his ultimate super power was a wall of whisps. I remember,that he used to be able to rally a whole forest, during Cataclysm he was capable of conjuring a huge vortex. We didn't see any of it during the War of Thorns - heck,where were the actual thorns in it? I've always supported Illidan over Malfurion,but damn, I feel bad about him.

Also, an interesting duel would be between Sylvanas and the Deathlord - the outcome might be quite interesting.

[Satelliteyears0o]

Sylvanas can probably best any “mortal” 1v1 at this point.
She kept up with Malfurion in the War of Thorns and that was before she had even demonstrated any new purple-mega powers.

Malfurion overpowered saurfang in one move without weapons in astranaar, Sylvanas then tried to hunt malfurion to which he pretty much landed and proceeded to one-shot her with wrath. You said mortal tho, and Malfurion is immortal even after Nordrassil was exploded and the NE's lost their immortality; his ties to the dream sustain him.

Im one of those ppl tho that believes malfurion is up to no good. Il'gynoths recent whispers in 8.3 warn of the 'eyes of green' that the vassal (a subordinate) of life disguises treachery. In the terror of darkshore, we see malfurion now has green eyes as opposed to his earlier white and retconned yellow, original. He has been corrupted by the nightmare twice and allowed himself to be captured by Xavius during legion and faked helplessness. I think getting us to aid malfurion and lure Ysera into being corrupted by xavius with the tears allowed the void seed to be planted and further whatever scheme hes up to.

Anyhoo, its fun to speculate.

[Firefall]

With the axe (that they ripped us off of and didn't give as an artifact for warriors even tho shamans got doomhammer and Paladins got ashbringer), Brox wins by miles. It was enough to allow him to slaughter thousands of demons and still be the only mortal to ever harm Sargeras. The death blast wouldn't be a problem, the axe greatly empowers the user (similar to you know, an Artifact weapon, although several tiers above the garbage they gave us warriors lol). And yeah it could cut straight through the now-less-powerful-Xalatath, remember it isn't housing an old god right now. (Did she even use Xalatath in the cinematic?)

Sylvanas is one of the most powerful characters right now but Brox is the GOAT mortal, although that is also because of the axe.

[SinR]

I'm surprised Danuser's Waifu hasn't blasted Azeroth into Oblivion at this point

[Flutterguy]

all knaak shit should be thrown in the trash

How is it any different from Golden trash? They're just gender bent versions of each other.

[Kallor]

Yep
[IMG]

The pic doesn't change anything. First of all, as far as I know they didn't have a 1v1 duel, you can basically use your entire army in WC3 to kill Cenarius - and they were all infused with the blood of Mannoroth which probably made them immune to some magic.

[Mehrunes]

Arthas could and for him it was pretty easy. Why can't Broxigar?
When Sylvanas broke bones with one scream, she was connected to the Lich King. Knaak's books are still canon, but Malfurion is portrayed much weaker in the game for balance.

Since when were undead stronger when connected to the Lich King? The story specifically points out when the Lich King empowered a minion, making it blatantly clear it's something out of the ordinary. And the Lich King didn't even give a shit about Sylvanas, she was solely Arthas' toy. Besides, the silencing part of her scream only got stronger after she broke free. And unlike Arthas Broxigar doesn't have a weapon with a will of its own, nor the Lich King's voice in his head telling him what to do. Terrible analogy. And Malfurion isn't portrayed weaker just in game, he's portrayed weaker than he is in Knaak's power fantasies across the board, novels included.

This is a Lore problem for me. The Saurfang v Sylvanas thing had me pretty clueless. I know Warriors have a generic name, but damn they are still supposed to be more powerful than that. He was lightly hitting her with an axe, and an old banshee/corpse was easily able to block and parry everything.

The OPs question sort of falls in the same realm. Would Broxigar just run at her???

Undead in Warcraft benefit from unnatural strength.

Also, an interesting duel would be between Sylvanas and the Deathlord - the outcome might be quite interesting.

Post-BfA the Deathlord, as any player character, is tainted by the power of friendship. Meaning that Sylvanas will roll her eyes and just nope out of that fight just as she noped out of the "let's sing kumbaya together around a portrait of Anduin's holy bones" plot of BfA. The only chance for Deathlord here is if Sylvanas chokes on her own puke while flying away.

On a more serious note, it's likely that Sylvanas' bow is on an artifact level, given how the bow she used in life was an artifact and I doubt that in her vanity she'd settle for less in undeath. Mind you the Hunter artifacts weren't exactly the strongest, certainly not comparable to those Death Knights got, but the players got rid of theirs at the end of the Legion. The Deathlord was also a conduit for the Lich King's power when it came to conclusion of various DK COH questlines, making those feats more Lich King's than the Deathlord's. On the other hand it's still a player and as such a steamroll machine while Sylvanas is busy gargling on the idiot ball.

[darkoms]

The pic doesn't change anything. First of all, as far as I know they didn't have a 1v1 duel, you can basically use your entire army in WC3 to kill Cenarius - and they were all infused with the blood of Mannoroth which probably made them immune to some magic.

He defeated him 1x1, read Chronicles(I'm so tired of saying this), and Cenarius also had an army of night elves and forest creatures.
LOL what? Mannoroth's blood give magic immunity? Even Archimonde was vulnerable to magic, for example Malfurion was able to wrap him in roots

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Since when were undead stronger when connected to the Lich King? The story specifically points out when the Lich King empowered a minion, making it blatantly clear it's something out of the ordinary. And the Lich King didn't even give a shit about Sylvanas, she was solely Arthas' toy. Besides, the silencing part of her scream only got stronger after she broke free. And unlike Arthas Broxigar doesn't have a weapon with a will of its own, nor the Lich King's voice in his head telling him what to do. Terrible analogy. And Malfurion isn't portrayed weaker just in game, he's portrayed weaker than he is in Knaak's power fantasies across the board, novels included.

Have you ever heard about the Val'kyrs? No? Well, I'll tell you that they could only raise Worgens when they were connected to the Lich King. They also could not raise non-humans before Bfa (in the Cataclysm there was even a quest where only non-humans went to the battle against the Forsaken, so that they would not be raised as undead).
Where does it say that her scream became stronger after being freed from the Lich King?
Lol what does it have to do with it? In your opinion, Frostmourne and Ner'Zhul told Arthas how to chop arrows correctly?
Knaak's books are still canon and Blizzard check books before releasing them. This is not just a whim of Knaak. If Blizzard didn't like something, they would say change it.

[sam86]

By your logic, Mannoroth, the destroyer of worlds (can you give proof that he destroyed the worlds, and did not capture them with a huge army of demons) is stronger than Y'shaarj, who sat on only one planet? What is wrong with the people in this forum?

beside at least better socially than u, nothing
As for ur question, do u have a proof that Mannoroth used army of demons and didn't alone destroy worlds as he claims ? Also Y'shaaraj is a different creature, he may be able to invade and f8ck more than 1 planet, but that never been his intention
And ur tweet confirm btw what we all saying, that blizz is sh8t in writing and just use the rule of k00l instead of actually stick to their own writing (not to mention it doesn't explain why shamans didn't flat out dominate the entire orc leadership if magic is allowed)

The Shattering says nothing about magic when it listed the rules for a Mak'gora. And even then, it listed rules for a traditional one and neither side made a demand for a traditional Mak'gora in the fight between Saurfang and Sylvanas.

that's first time i hear the word 'traditional' Mak'gora, i know blizz is sh8t in lore, but they never claimed there are 2 Mak'gora types, just never answered a very clear question about WoD Mak'gora (or anything regarding WoD)

[darkoms]

beside at least better socially than u, nothing
As for ur question, do u have a proof that Mannoroth used army of demons and didn't alone destroy worlds as he claims ? Also Y'shaaraj is a different creature, he may be able to invade and f8ck more than 1 planet, but that never been his intention
A

Great achievement, please accept my praise.

Where does Mannorot claim to have captured/destroyed worlds alone?

[Mehrunes]

that's first time i hear the word 'traditional' Mak'gora, i know blizz is sh8t in lore, but they never claimed there are 2 Mak'gora types, just never answered a very clear question about WoD Mak'gora (or anything regarding WoD)

That's mighty weird, because it was specified in the very The Shattering novel that you used to support your argument. In the same bit that talked about the rules that you specifically mentioned.

[sam86]

Great achievement, please accept my praise.

Where does Mannorot claim to have captured/destroyed worlds alone?

in same place where u got the part he said he needed armies to destroy worlds
since using entire burning legion might to destroy world only to claim it was done by urself makes that achievement useless, the BL destroyed countless worlds where Draenei used to live alone according to Velen, yet i don't see every single BL general claim he destroyed them in same method as Mannoroth

That's mighty weird, because it was specified in the very The Shattering novel that you used to support your argument. In the same bit that talked about the rules that you specifically mentioned.

last time i read The Shattering was when cata released, unlike Rise of Horde, i didn't really enjoy it to re-read it
If u say that in Shattering they say that there is traditional Mak'gora, and non-traditional version where u are allowed to use magic, i don't remember that, all i remember is cairne threat that if they will use Mak'gora, they will use it to full extent of rules (ie to the death), yet nothing about magic, or even armor either

[Felixon]

Post-BfA the Deathlord, as any player character, is tainted by the power of friendship. Meaning that Sylvanas will roll her eyes and just nope out of that fight just as she noped out of the "let's sing kumbaya together around a portrait of Anduin's holy bones" plot of BfA. The only chance for Deathlord here is if Sylvanas chokes on her own puke while flying away.

On a more serious note, it's likely that Sylvanas' bow is on an artifact level, given how the bow she used in life was an artifact and I doubt that in her vanity she'd settle for less in undeath. Mind you the Hunter artifacts weren't exactly the strongest, certainly not comparable to those Death Knights got, but the players got rid of theirs at the end of the Legion. The Deathlord was also a conduit for the Lich King's power when it came to conclusion of various DK COH questlines, making those feats more Lich King's than the Deathlord's. On the other hand it's still a player and as such a steamroll machine while Sylvanas is busy gargling on the idiot ball.

That's true, the artifacts the Deathlord obtained during the Legion were one of the strongest - maybe not on par with a Scepter of Sargeras, but not that far as well. The Deathlord back then would be quite a challenge for Sylvanas.

[Kallor]

He defeated him 1x1, read Chronicles(I'm so tired of saying this), and Cenarius also had an army of night elves and forest creatures.
LOL what? Mannoroth's blood give magic immunity? Even Archimonde was vulnerable to magic, for example Malfurion was able to wrap him in root

Mannoroth's blood empowers them, that's the point. It's a "magical" buff. They were losing the battle against the Night elves, then they drank the blood and won.

[darkoms]

Mannoroth's blood empowers them, that's the point. It's a "magical" buff. They were losing the battle against the Night elves, then they drank the blood and won.

And? Grommash solo killed Cenarius