Sadly looking like Tinkers could become a reality.

[Musta]

You can have tinkers if i get good class design

[Teriz]

Except that was never anyone's argument. Ever. All they did was how many of the tinker abilities you would share mechanics with many of the currently existing classes, that the Tinker class is not "so unique" as you claim it is.

If you're obtuse enough to actually believe that a Hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same as a turret firing at targets, then sure I can see how you would believe that.

[Ielenia]

If you're obtuse enough to actually believe that a Hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same as a turret firing at targets, then sure I can see how you would believe that.

The only one being "obtuse" here is you making all those strawman arguments.

That was never my argument, and it was never anyone's argument.

Please show me the quote where someone said "a hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same as a turret firing at targets".

I'll wait.

[Teriz]

The only one being "obtuse" here is you making all those strawman arguments.

That was never my argument, and it was never anyone's argument.

Please show me the quote where someone said "a hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same as a turret firing at targets".

I'll wait.

That was Katchii's entire post, which you happily agreed with.

[Polybius]

But that's the thing. Neither will any new class.

So saying that one has more potential for new new new is a bit misleading, because all those mechanics will irrevocably be hit by the homogenization stick just like Death Knight 6-spec (technically 8 spec considering Frost and Blood had DW and 2H options) got cut, and Monk's were completely changed from having no auto attacks and healing through punches and kicks to being your standard Tank/MDPS/Healer class.

I don't see how the outcry for a Tinker changes this, considering all you'd be getting is a new theme covering variations of existing gameplay that will have to fit the current model. It's not like you could literally have a Vehicle that has its own separate HP as a ridable battle mech; it's not like Rockets and Lasers are going to be any different than Fireballs and Moon Fires. It's gonna be a class that has to fit the same streamlining that you're talking about.

At the end of the day, any new class will bring some new mechanics and have a kit that revolves around the same basic gameplay every other class does. Generate resource ability, Spend resource ability, Cooldown on rotation, 'Oh Shit' Cooldown, 'Free DPS' Proc Ability, etc etc.

As far as I know, there's more room for creativity for one than the other, for very obvious reasons like preexisting spells in NPCs. Necromancer as a whole has several, Dark Ranger doesn't.

[Triceron]

As far as I know, there's more room for creativity for one than the other, for very obvious reasons like preexisting spells in NPCs. Necromancer as a whole has several, Dark Ranger doesn't.

I don't understand what this means. I don't see the connection between NPCs and creativity.

Monks, for example, aren't based on any NPCs. Does this mean it had more room for creativity? Death Knights arguably had more pre-existing spells on NPCs (much of which is never used for DK player class, mind you). Is this less room for creativity? Because DK's have an entire Frost and Blood spec where no DK ever used Frost or Blood abilities before.


IMO, creativity is only limited by the designers goal of how far they want to push an identity. The more creative, the less it resembles the iconic identity of its pregenitor Hero class.

A Death Knight, for example, is more creative than a Demon Hunter. A Demon Hunter is a very niche concept of Elves who use Fel magic and train under Illidan. This is a deliberate choice. Their gameplay is limited to 2 specs. Their weapon type is limited to Warglaives. This is a niche class, but it's not for a lack of creativity. This is a design philosophy set by Legion, which aimed to bring classes closer to their 'Class fantasy'.

The Death Knight is creative in that they designed it with many options in mind. You can tank and DPS in any spec. You can play any race in the game, including Gnomes. You can use any type of Bladed weapon. You have three specs that are very thematically different from each other. That is very creative. But the downside of this is that you have a class that isn't as coherrent to itself. You have extreme choices that can make a character that is far removed from the original Death Knight concept. A Female pink haired Gnome Frost DK who uses two axes has little resemblance to the white haired human Unholy Death Knights with 2H runeblades. This is a deliberate design choice, to have the Death Knight become more than just one image. Same goes for wanting Demon Hunters to be very close to one image.

It's not a lack of creativity, it's an adherence to design. So honestly, we could have a Tinker that is Goblin/Gnome only, or a Tinker that is open to wide variety of races. We could have a Dark Ranger that is limited to Elves and Humans and only uses Unholy magic, or a Dark Ranger that is open to a wide variety of races and uses many types of magic like Void or Arcane. There isn't only one path to any class design.

[Ielenia]

That was Katchii's entire post, which you happily agreed with.

Which I never did? And reading some of his post, I'm willing to bet that this is another one of your numerous misrepresentations and strawman that you are so happy to create.

No one has ever said "a hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same thing as turret firing at targets". This is, again, just you being dishonest.

[Teriz]

Which I never did? And reading some of his post, I'm willing to bet that this is another one of your numerous misrepresentations and strawman that you are so happy to create.

No one has ever said "a hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same thing as turret firing at targets". This is, again, just you being dishonest.

What do you think "overlap" means?

[Ielenia]

What do you think "overlap" means?

Two objects sharing one or more similarities.

[Shandalar]

Next class is Necromancer. Tinker will never happen.

You read first here.

[Katchii]

Sorry, but no one is going to be looking at a Tinker turret and saying "Wow, that's exactly like my Hunter bear pet!" Or, "Hey, that turret reminds me of my bouncy imp that spans from my Warlock's butt every five seconds!"

However, someone using Black, Shadowburn, Shadowdust, shadowhatever arrow is going to be wondering why they couldn't just give some of those abilities to Hunters and save the class slot.

That's not even close to what I was saying.

If you can't see the similarities between a Hunter pet or a Warlock Imp and a Tinker's mechanical turret doing damage you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're an idiot.

Also, Hunters have ranged pets. Wind Serpents for example don't have to attack from within melee range.

If you're obtuse enough to actually believe that a Hunter beast doing thunderclap is the same as a turret firing at targets, then sure I can see how you would believe that.

See above....

Player controlled/ generated unit doing damage to a group of enemies. Putting a different paint job on them and animating them differently doesn't change the fact that they're doing the same thing.

That was Katchii's entire post, which you happily agreed with.

As I said before you're either being deliberately dishonest and obtuse or you're an idiot. Pick one. Either way I'm done conversing with you.

- - - Updated - - -

What do you think "overlap" means?

How about the textbook definition of it?

- - - Updated - - -

One is more fleshed out than the other, and has better potential in adding new gameplay mechanics, overlap or not. Dark Ranger would work best as a spec under a new class.

Classes and specs aren't all that distinct in BFA thanks to streamlining.

From a lore perspective I'm not sure where it would fit. It doesn't really make sense for it to just be a Hunter spec, meaning a Hunter could jump back and forth between a nature loving conservationist with an animal companion and a dark magic wielding, vengeance filled, seemingly uncaring harbinger of death.

Dark Rangers have vastly different outlooks on life and ethos than Hunters do. Just because they have training in similar areas doesn't mean they're interchangeable.

Maybe it is a bit more bare bones compared to Tinker, that doesn't mean it would make sense as a spec....it would make sense if it currently had enough material to consider a single specification but that could be expanded upon.

I'd rather they just not do it, if they were going to just make it a spec for Hunter. Adding it as a 1 spec class would be better than that, IMO.

[Teriz]

That's not even close to what I was saying.

If you can't see the similarities between a Hunter pet or a Warlock Imp and a Tinker's mechanical turret doing damage you're either being deliberately obtuse or you're an idiot.

They only seem similar when you dont understand the basics of class abilities, which seems to be the case with you.

Also, Hunters have ranged pets. Wind Serpents for example don't have to attack from within melee range.

Yeah, that's about the only one. Still doesn't make them anything like a turret.

Player controlled/ generated unit doing damage to a group of enemies. Putting a different paint job on them and animating them differently doesn't change the fact that they're doing the same thing.

A damage ability dealing damage? Wow, what a concept.

- - - Updated - - -

Two objects sharing one or more similarities.

So tell me what's the overlap between a Hunter Wolf Pet and a Turret.

[united]

Next class is Necromancer. Tinker will never happen.

You read first here.

We're due for a non edgy class imo.

[Teriz]

Next class is Necromancer. Tinker will never happen.

You read first here.

Why do we need Necromancers when Bolvar can just rez more DKs?

[Ielenia]

So tell me what's the overlap between a Hunter Wolf Pet and a Turret.

I'll indulge you. Off the top of my head:
• Damage dealer
• Player summoned
• Player controlled
• Can be targeted
• Can be killed
• Requires line of sight
• Requires player alive
• Affected by haste
• Can be stunned
• Can be rooted

And those, again, only from off the top of my head. I'm sure I could think of more if I truly sat down to think about it.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do we need Necromancers when Bolvar can just rez more DKs?

Diversity. An army of just one type of soldier is a weak army, since if you can counter one type of soldier, you can counter them all. There needs to be options.

[Traveler Voltin]

bow down to the Tinker overlords.

[Kuze]

bow down to the Tinker overlords.

I'm not saying there wont be tinkers but the evidence for them is really small imo. Cause you saw a few npcs in an island expedition with some mechanical features/abilities and now holy smokes that must mean tinker is next. Oh 2 small clever allied races were added that must mean tinker. And thats it? Like what about the other 8 non small allied races added? And how exactly would mechs help against any sort of magic we'd be facing? I mean practically speaking? Plus everyone ignores the fact that the class being added has to have something to do with the story being told in the epac, I mean ALL expac, not for a patch, the whole thing, Tinkers don't make sense unless the story does a hard 90/180 degree turn.

[Goldielocks]

We're due for a non edgy class imo.

In a non edgy expansion, sure, but I'd imagine Blizzard would want the new class to go along with the expansion's theme. If the theme ends up being death, the chances of the Necromancer coming are higher.

[Traveler Voltin]

In a non edgy expansion, sure, but I'd imagine Blizzard would want the new class to go along with the expansion's theme. If the theme ends up being death, the chances of the Necromancer coming are higher.

it doesnt have to.

[Goldielocks]

it doesnt have to.

The concept of "having to" is only in regards to what makes sense from a business perspective. WoW is a game that needs to be sold above anything else. They're going to go with creating a package that seems like it fits together, as the three expansions that introduced new classes before this one have done.