Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[TheVaryag]

Like....what the hell does that mean? So, because the Horde is trying to strive for peace, to not be genocidal assholes like the MoP and BfA versions were, its suddenly no longer the Horde? Thats a load of crap, the Horde is not defined by the damage it does. The Horde has always been about being a collection of outcasts, of underdogs. THAT is the Horde.

The Horde Is not the Horde without a Warchief It's so dumb I hoped It wouldn't be true.

I don't want a damn council to follow, The Horde's races share spiritual beliefs, they're outcasts who band together, people with common beliefs and even uncommon ones. And Orcs of all people who are at the center of the Horde are Warlike, It's this historical thing of when you're at peace for too long you become stale, weak and brittle. Fighting all the time, always improving, strenghtening and fighting keeps you prepared for the innevitable attack on your borders, like, The Alliance.

And Orcs know nothing but war, that's who they are, they fight and they're proud of It, all of the Horde races are like that for the most part, trolls, tauren, orcs they all know war and are not afraid to wage war and then settle for peace but still remain with a Warchief at the lead to keep It's population ready for war. The way MoP and BfA showed the Horde was due to extremists who wanted to rule the whole world, well how about choosing your Warchief this time, properly. Thrall choose Garrosh and made a mistake, Vol'jin's ghost friends told him to choose Sylvanas and so he did (And nobody in the Horde questioned that It might just be his fel-corrupted body from the recent stab wound in his gut from a fel glaive).

So to me, having a council now doesn't make me even proud to be Horde anymore, what will I yell? FOR THE COUNCIL! when I charge into battle? Meh. And also this puts an interesting question on the table, will the Alliance be demanding a council too now, instead of a High King of the Alliance? Would be odd If the Alliance didn't see this happen and think "Maybe we should have a council of competant military veterans and advisors instead of a young lion king who barely knows how to lead in the first place"

I think this council thing fits the Alliance more, an Alliance after all, right? Where each kingdom's leader has a say in everything, the Ironforge Council, Tyrande/Shandris/Malfurion, Anduin, Panda girl whatever her name is, Gnome King, etc. right?

But the HORDE Is a HORDE with a single leader under it, If not we'll become... what, a commonwealth, a red alliance? It's so dumb and takes away further identity of being a proud Horde member.

Lastly, with the 8.3 spoilers datamined and such, we see Tyrande basically going Sylvanas on the Alliance, a basic copy of Sylvanas but in the Alliance now.... they're so unoriginal they can't even come up with a good conflict within the Alliance other than "Tyrande goes abit mad" like most people seem to go mad, one expansion it's Alliance, one It's Horde........... althugh for the most part It's the Horde lets be honest cause we're the baddies, right?

Last last point to make, seriously wouldn't this make the Alliance consider a council too? Historically speaking It'd be like the French Revolution spreading ideas to neighboring kingdoms that "Maybe a Monarch/single leader isn't needed after all" and I'll be so shocked If there's no division in the Alliance due to this at the very least.

[Mehrunes]

Cali has never been alliance they go out of there way to point that out in before the storm. Calling her alliance because she’s friend with anduin is like calling wrathion alliance.

Was Calia exiled from Lordaeron when it formed the Alliance or what now? And Valeera also likes to pretend she's not Alliance even though she's the personal spy of the High King.

[Soon-TM]

Was Calia exiled from Lordaeron when it formed the Alliance or what now? And Valeera also likes to pretend she's not Alliance even though she's the personal spy of the High King.

Yeah, gotta love those "neutral" characters like Calia or Valeera. "I'm not Alliance bois, I swear it! *pinky finger*". Imagine if there was a close friend to Sylvanas claiming all of a sudden that he/she wasn't actually Horde...

[Mehrunes]

"There is a sickness in the Horde and my heart can bear it no longer." His exact words. He was disgusted with _Sylvanas_ actions for a while, who as it turns out, did not care about the Horde at all. Her being a genocidal psychopath made him rebell against her and her supporters. Stopping her from using Derek in a horrifying plot that made even some of her Forsaken uncomfortable was just the last spark. Just like Saurfang he wanted the Horde to be noble and honorable, while Sylvanas was just using it to kill as many people as possible. If you still can't see this you must have closed eyes and ears during the last month of cutscenes to try to justify your irrational hatred towards Baine.

He only reacted that way when Sylvanas' actions affected the brother of his human master. He had no reaction to Teldrassil whatsoever at any point in this expansion. And yeah, killing Horde members just minding their business at the post they were ordered to be is very noble. And honorable. Acting only when Zelling made him believe their tracks would be covered is also top notch honor. Because nothing says honorable as much as skulking in the shadows. Same applies to Sourfang. High treason, murder of Horde members, sabotaging Horde's war effort which lead to even more dead Horde members, crawling to and allying with the enemy of the Horde. As opposed to dealing with Horde's issues within the Horde. Nobility and honor abound.

Yes, but did you know that Baine also orchestrated the monstrous unforgivable attack in Stormheim? He is behind most Alliance attacks really. The Illuminati told me.

The fact that in your defense of Baine you have to resort to a (particularly sad) straw-man just second paragraph into the argument is quite telling.

Yes, you are obviously ignoring everything else just to justify your world view. Like how Baine criticized Sylvanas as early as during the Siege of the Undercity, probably still because of Derek, he was still dead then but it is possible!!!
Did you know that Baine also personally fired the cannons on board of the Skyfire in Stormheim and started the war? Well, Baine and Saurfang together actually, they are known for their intrigues.

You do realize Baine's "criticism" at Siege of Lordaeron was bullshit, right? Because the only thing criticized in that fight was Sylvanas "abandoning Saurfang to die", when in reality Saurfang openly disobeyed the order to retreat. Other than that horsecrap he didn't say a word. Not about Sylvanas blighting Horde troops, not about her resurrecting Horde troops, not about her turning a Horde city into a tomb. His only complaint was based on his delusion.

With allies like Garrosh, Gallywix, and Sylvanas that is really a surprise for you? Not to mention that the Horde has betrayed Baine before. Like when Cairne challenged Garrosh to Mak'gora and got killed by poison (not applied by Garrosh sure), what did the Horde do to avenge their murdered leader? Not a thing. Garrosh was happy to wait out the Tauren civil war and see which side would win. It was Jaina personally that gave Baine funds to win against Magatha. I assume you are ignoring that bit as well. Of course he bloody well considers her a friend, she saved him, when the Horde ignored his pleas.

Gallywix wasn't even in the Horde yet at the time. And Sylvanas didn't like Garrosh, which other members knew about. Including Baine because he and Vol'jin discussed that when the Darkspear Rebellion began. Besides you "accidentally" left out half of the Horde. Or the part where the help Baine sought out was financial, which means he just needed to send a trusted scout to a meeting with other Horde members. When it was necessary for him to betray the Horde, Baine somehow managed to send scouts to Theramore when it was openly at war with the Horde with the scout successfully succeeding his task. Yet he couldn't send one to meet with friendly Horde members and ask them for a loan without Garrosh finding out? Baine's flimsy excuses for not reaching out to the Horde don't hold up. And this isn't even the only part of why they don't.

Well, he is more loyal to the Horde then Sylvanas ever was, or Gallywix, or even Lor'themar. He just feels that sometimes the Horde has to be protected from itself, and considering how you and many others close your eyes as to not be disturbed in the deluisons you created for yourself I am absolutely with him. The Horde does no longer seem to be able to discern right from wrong (Hint: Genocide = Wrong), so I am very uncomfortable leaving it alone. I throughly WISH the Alliance would establish an occupation to watch out that the Horde is not just running after the next psychopath that shouts "For the Horde"... but I expect too much.

Yes, repeatedly betraying the Horde for its opponent is just apotheosis of loyalty. And please, if the Alliance didn't start conflicts with the Horde, which they do only when the world is already busy with an ongoing apocalypse, there would be no Horde reaction for them to then cry about. The Horde has to be protected from the Alliance. Because sooner or later another Genn will cause another Stormheim when we are in a war with the Void Lords or whatever and Anduin will once again pretend it didn't happen. Which is precisely why Alliance sycophants like Baine are so harmful to the Horde. And why Warchiefs waging war against it with the goal of making sure the Alliance can never raise its unhinged head against the Horde.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Was Calia exiled from Lordaeron when it formed the Alliance or what now? And Valeera also likes to pretend she's not Alliance even though she's the personal spy of the High King.

Correct she’s never been post scourge alliance.

Valeera on the other hand is true blue she’s just a spy.

[Mehrunes]

Correct she’s never been post scourge alliance.

Valeera on the other hand is true blue she’s just a spy.

What's this post-Scouge Alliance that you talk about given how Metzen confirmed years ago Alliance of Lordaeron and Alliance we have now are the same thing?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Ok, Calia isn't Alliance, but she's quite close nevertheless. The very fact that Golden had to go out of her way to point it out is because otherwise Calia could easily be mistaken by a sister to Anduin or something, that's how close they are.

Btw Wrathion did have more than a couple of... um, misunderstandings with Anduin. Much unlike Calia.

Calia is a rather boring character so I don’t really expect her to do any thing but tow them happy fun peace horde line like say baine/thrall sadly.

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What's this post-Scouge Alliance that you talk about given how Metzen confirmed years ago Alliance of Lordaeron and Alliance we have now are the same thing?

The same alliance that kicked the now undead citizens to the curb even though there the same people? Sure it’s the same entity but they don’t hold all of the same members.

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Yeah, gotta love those "neutral" characters like Calia or Valeera. "I'm not Alliance bois, I swear it! *pinky finger*". Imagine if there was a close friend to Sylvanas claiming all of a sudden that he/she wasn't actually Horde...

Thralls wife was been pretty neutral every time she’s shown other then Mabye wod wasn’t she?

[Mehrunes]

This is simply wrong. If you had followed the plot of BFA you knew that Baine was very unhappy with basically everything Sylvanas did and he only stuck around because he rightly feared that the other Tauren would pay the price if he openly rebelled like Saurfang. It`s pretty clear he DOES care for his people, he wanted to prevent more war BECAUSE he cares about them not being send into a pointless war.

But, I see you made up your head canon, probably beyond any reasonable argument at this point.

When has Baine ever expressed that fear, exactly? Especially since Orcs paid fuck all for Saurfang's insubordination? Or expressed his unhappiness about Teldrassil or Horde soldiers being blighted at Lordaeron?

I did not think I had to give you a source for an ingame cutscene from this expansion..., you do play this game yes? It literally happened right before Anduin, Genn, Jaina and Alleria confront Sylvanas in the old Lordaeronian throne room. Baine accuses Sylvanas of sacrificing Saurfang and she tells him worry about his own people, meaning that she will take out his insubordnation on them.

It's rather clear what @Gann Stonespire was referring to as a straw-man there... And like I said before, Baine's remark about Saurfang at Lordaeron was yet another delusion from the same guy that gave us "Garrosh betrayed my father". And you're reaching really hard into what Sylvanas said. She didn't even mention Tauren there, she talked about the living in general. It's rather obvious she was contrasting the people of the Horde Baine could still help to Saurfang she "abandoned to die".

Garrosh did... what? I gape in awe at your ability to twist reality. I am not in the mood to count up all the crimes Garrosh commited against the Horde. He clearly stated in Warcrimes that he did not give a crap about anyone non-orc and would have gladly killed or exiled them all to make his own pure orc Horde.

First of all, they linked quests supporting their argument about Garrosh sending help to the Barrens. So what you got here amounts to "nuh huh". And trying to use Garrosh's outlook in War Crimes as an argument used to handwave away his actions in early Cataclysm is utterly ineffective given how Garrosh's views changed significantly over time. In Cataclysm he was still trying to make the Horde like him and respect him and it continued all the way until Theramore where he realized people like Baine won't do that no matter what he does.

And another poster has already shown your quote being completely out of context. Baine saw Garrosh with Magatha so he had to assume they were together in the killing of his father. Of course he doesn't trust him.

This is just adorable, because you're taking what happened out of context here yourself. That other poster said that @Gann Stonespire was taking things out of context only when they quoted a single sentence of Baine that wasn't even part of his excuses in question. When the topic shifted to those reasons themselves the very poster you're trying to pretend supports your argument here admitted that Baine's aguments in regards to non-Orcs were illogical and inconsistent and argued that it was a case of the writer looking for an excuse to send him to Theramore no matter what.

Funny. Considering I am constantly on the site of those defending the Horde leadership you still have, Baine, Thrall, previously Saurfang, Thal'ryssa, while you can do nothing but whine over them and wish your old Warchiefs that HATED your Horde back, i.e. Garrosh and Sylvanas. Weird, one could almost say that I am speaking up FOR the Horde survival, while you just want it destroyed.

What's funny is all those characters are those that betrayed the Horde and teamed up with the Alliance. And please, who are you trying to convince that your position is pro Horde when you already expressed your position on it in your previous post? You know, this:

The Horde does no longer seem to be able to discern right from wrong (Hint: Genocide = Wrong), so I am very uncomfortable leaving it alone. I throughly WISH the Alliance would establish an occupation to watch out that the Horde is not just running after the next psychopath that shouts "For the Horde"... but I expect too much.

[anon5123]

"horde are not the bad guys"

"horde must be warmongers or else they are not the horde"

hmmmmm

[Mehrunes]

The same alliance that kicked the now undead citizens to the curb even though there the same people? Sure it’s the same entity but they don’t hold all of the same members.

They didn't do that to the still living Lordaeronians. And since Anduin is magnanimous when it comes to undeath Alliance is now OK even with Forsaken. Let alone a Lightforged perfect undead like Calia.

[Feanoro]

What? Did you even play classic/vanilla? The alliance are the de facto aggressors with Forsaken exception.

Both Durotar and Mulgore are being invaded by Allianace friendly npcs (Read this, GREEN TO THE PLAYER) - Kul Tiras marines that followed the Horde across the seas, and Dwarves that are disturbing Tauren burial grounds.

This is directly hostile actions.

The earliest a Alliance player faces alliance threat is lvl 5. But the earliest Alliance face a Horde threat is much later.

Know those frostmane trolls in Coldridge Valley? Well guess what? They are trolls, but not horde. They are not horde friendly npcs and Horde can attack them. The same goes for the Dragonmaw in Wetlands --- again not Horde faction, and Horde players can attack them.

The earliest a Horde NPC attacks alliance is either in Darkshore (Forsaken) or Hillsbrad (again Forsaken). The earliest an Orc/Troll/Tauren npc is found to be hostile to Horde is mid 30s in Arathi Highlands.

The Horde have very little to do with the Alliance (Forsaken withstanding) before that. You seem to have just drank the Alliance racism kool-aid and thought "Orc! IT MUST BE HORDE"

And it's well known that they just threw together Alliance NPCs for early questing because they did Horde second and had more of a time crunch, but don't let that stop you from flat out calling another poster a racist.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They didn't do that to the still living Lordaeronians. And since Anduin is magnanimous when it comes to undeath Alliance is now OK even with Forsaken. Let alone a Lightforged perfect undead like Calia.

They didn’t kick them out but a ton of them left and joined other groups like the scarlet crusade argent dawn or just puttered about on there own.

I do believe you had said arthas formally ditched the alliance when he came back all spooky in a different thread but I haven’t got around to reading the lichking book to confirm.

Anduins love all the forsaken crap is also sickening.

[Raisei]

What's funny is all those characters are those that betrayed the Horde and teamed up with the Alliance. And please, who are you trying to convince that your position is pro Horde when you already expressed your position on it in your previous post? You know, this:

Yeah sorry, skipped most of this after another rendition of "Anduin is Baine's Master". It's an absurd idea and it does not make the rest of what you said very convincing.

You are halve right and halve wrong in your final point at least. I am pro Horde, but not your Horde apparently. I am absolutely against a Horde of warmongering idiots led by a genocidal psychopath. This verson of the Horde is sooooooooooo over and done, for the second time. I would like to see a constructive Horde instead of a destructive one for once. Hence why I do think the new leadership council is an interesting idea, why I find Calia might help the Forsaken and why I am glad Thrall is back. These changes can actually create something interesting.

This view is not shared by many of the Horde playerbase, including yourself I guess, who either complain about every last one of these new leading figures, pray Sylvanas comes to deliver them from Calia, or blatantly call those folks "Traitors to the Horde", because they SAVED YOU FROM BEING FED TO DEATH BY YOUR WARCHIEF...
Basically all the Horde playerbase atm does is wallow in self-pity and whine and would rather see the Horde destroyed then it being led by Baine and Thrall, it is quite ridiculous and childish, but also somewhat amusing.
So when I express my distrust towards the Horde it is more of the people then of the characters. I have high hopes for the new leadership council

[Soon-TM]

I have high hopes for the new leadership council

If this new Horde council is anything like Dwarves', you are in for a lot of disappointment my dude.

[Feanoro]

If this new Horde council is anything like Dwarves', you are in for a lot of disappointment my dude.

Except that the writers actually like writing Horde, and want GoT style bickering.

[Arrashi]

Except that the writers actually like writing Horde, and want GoT style bickering.

Ok, now that was a good joke.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

If this new Horde council is anything like Dwarves', you are in for a lot of disappointment my dude.

Ha the dwarves “council” where only
Moria does any thing while the other clans twiddle there thumbs. They really should have just made her queen of iron forge I don’t think the other two have even shown up since mop and even then it was just to say that they wouldn’t do any thing.

[Super Dickmann]

Except that the writers actually like writing Horde, and want GoT style bickering.

Call me when Baine even appeared in any story that wasn't about him trying to sabotage the current Horde Warchief on behalf of Anduin/Jaina. The Horde Council is a narrative dead end. It exists so the writers don't have to write Horde and there's no bickering to be had since all participants think the same.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I kinda forgot the other two even existed lol

Ya as a dwarf fan it’s rather sad that we only really get the race traitor Magni as our rep.

As a dark iron fan though it’s good to see the queen represent.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Blizzard honestly sucks hard at using their cast of characters... :/

I don’t know if they suck at it or they just don’t care. Legion had a ton of old forgotten characters show up and be great but then bfa goes back to the there’s only like 20 or so named characters like other past expans.