Geya'rah

[KrakHed]

At this point I'll gladly take Avengers of Azeroth over Game of Warchiefs season 8.

Well, the good news is that they might actually use Vol'jin next expansion to give the Horde a solid hook into things.

[Super Dickmann]

At this point I'll gladly take Avengers of Azeroth over Game of Warchiefs season 8.

This is where I can never agree. All that's left of the Horde are the same character wearing different hats. Any internal conflict, any identity, any history and connection to its orcish origin are trashed. Stories without conflict are no stories, and there's no conflict to be had in people who have no needs to satisfy, since everything's arranged for them, and can only be opposed by evil caricatures. This was already the fate of the Alliance, the Horde becoming the same is just cutting out the middle man. Especially since right after this wraps up, Tyrande decides to finally give Anduin shit.

[Gann Stonespire]

Thanks for letting me know not to take you seriously, complete with insults. I leave you with an old favorite on the subject of atrocities.

The writers making the Horde act cartoonishly evil is a sign of Alliance bias if anything, so you are just proving my point and destroying your own argument.

And the funniest thing about Taurajo is it was Alliance crybabying about Taurajo that resulted in Baine being turned into Anduin's sockpuppet.

[Jastall]

This is where I can never agree. All that's left of the Horde are the same character wearing different hats. Any internal conflict, any identity, any history and connection to its orcish origin are trashed. Stories without conflict are no stories, and there's no conflict to be had in people who have no needs to satisfy, since everything's arranged for them, and can only be opposed by evil caricatures. This was already the fate of the Alliance, the Horde becoming the same is just cutting out the middle man. Especially since right after this wraps up, Tyrande decides to finally give Anduin shit.

They're absolutely shit at writing conflict that isn't good vs evil in the first place, so I'd rather they not try and cause so much damage to both the world and my brain in the process.

I'll go play The Witcher or something if I want grayer fantasy. As far as I'm concerned WoW is, as of now, better served by being us superheroes vs whatever big evil thingy we spank that day for loot. At least they usually don't fuck that up too much and it makes for much more climatic and satisfying boss fights than having Jaina go Super Sayain and bubbleheart at 5%.

[cparle87]

Not that she had much of a choice. Why would somebody, who has at least tiny self respect, follow somebody, who treats them like a shit? It seems, that loyalists after all of this like to be treated in that way.

Why do people serve cults whose advertised goal is the extermination of life (ie you)? Ambition is all to often not in one's own best interest.

[Super Dickmann]

They're absolutely shit at writing conflict that isn't good vs evil in the first place, so I'd rather they not try and cause so much damage to both the world and my brain in the process.

I'll go play The Witcher or something if I want grayer fantasy. As far as I'm concerned WoW is, as of now, better served by being us superheroes vs whatever big evil thingy we spank that day for loot. At least they usually don't fuck that up too much and it makes for much more climatic and satisfying boss fights than having Jaina go Super Sayain and bubbleheart at 5%.

It angers me more because I know they can do this. The pre-Dazar'alor stuff and the invasions in BFA in particular are examples of the kind of storytelling I expected - nothing high brow, just bashing the toys assembled over fifteen years together. Past that, the game has had individual storylines and racial conflicts that've been executed competently. BFA's problem is intent - it was intended to be this, not just the hamhanded execution.

[Ersula]

Why do people serve cults whose advertised goal is the extermination of life (ie you)? Ambition is all to often not in one's own best interest.

When their version of "extermination of life" is to replace it with a cooler, gother version of life. Its the entire appeal of Vampire fiction

[Jastall]

It angers me more because I know they can do this. The pre-Dazar'alor stuff and the invasions in BFA in particular are examples of the kind of storytelling I expected - nothing high brow, just bashing the toys assembled over fifteen years together. Past that, the game has had individual storylines and racial conflicts that've been executed competently. BFA's problem is intent - it was intended to be this, not just the hamhanded execution.

It's only the smaller-scale conflicts that they can sometimes do right. Daelin taking on Durotar, Stromheim, parts of Silverpine, parts of BFA, there have been decent faction conflict stories, but I'd say there has never been a good overarching faction war narrative, ever. They retconned some nice details into WC2's war but it's still hardly great.

Hopefully they can use NPCs like Tyrande to inject a bit of faction conflict stories now and then, make them more personal, low-key and with more understandable stakes for the people who enjoy that aspect of the setting, rather than the ridiculous nonsense of having Taurens fight Night Elves on Zandalar because a Worgen attacked a Forsaken on the Broken Isles. But the faction war should never again be a central theme in any WoW xpack. They provably cannot handle it, whenever it's by intent, incompetence, or (most likely) both.

[Dagoth Ur]

I wouldn't say the Horde lost much in terms of personality in the first place. Sylvanas was already turned into a monologuing edgelady long ago, Nathanos was Sylvanas without tits, Saurfang had a cool story in concept but terrible in execution, and Gallywix was close to being a meme character in the game proper.

@Super Dickmann pretty much explained how I feel about it.

You're right that our cast has been a circus long before current faction war epilogue, but at least it had some variation to it.

We've lost:
- Sylvanas, an irreparable sociopathic cyinic who pretty much enabled both inner and outward confict by merely existing
- Gallywix, who you're right about being a caricature, but caricature that was fun to follow around and who could serve as conflict enabler if need arises
- Saurfang, who even after everything I still cannot bring myself to fully dislike and who was a relic of Old Horde that strived for some kind of redemption

Personality-wise, both main stars we're left with and newly introduced characters might as well be Baine clones, considering they'll likely agree with everything his character pushes for. There are some exceptions, but I doubt they'll see the light of day anytime soon.

The Horde's been fucked ever since they appointed Garrosh Warchief and gave me more reasons to hate my boss than to hate my supposed enemy. We've been riding that bullshit wave from Cata onwards, and our roster's been a joke since they killed Cairne offscreen, made his son a spineless damsel, had Thrall go through Metzen's midlife crisis, turned our Warchief into Hitler, and killed our other Warchief via trash mob because muh faction war has to happen. BfA was just them trimming off the caricatures that remained.

Say what you will about Garrosh, but narrative-wise I value him more than all of our current cast combined. No matter if you like him or not, I think nobody can dispute how he enabled interesting stories with almost every character he interacted with. Saurfang, Vol'jin, Thrall, Jaina, Cairne are all examples of it. Characters like him are reason why I've always prefered Horde's in house interactions than Alliance's.

At this point I'll gladly take Avengers of Azeroth over Game of Warchiefs season 8.

As someone who publicly can't let the concept of faction war rest, even I agree with this now. I mean if this shit is what we're always going to be put through when it's faction war time, than fuck it, don't even try it anymore as far as I'm concerned.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, the good news is that they might actually use Vol'jin next expansion to give the Horde a solid hook into things.

I'm actually thinking Vol'jin dodged a bullet there. Him staying mostly out of this whole bullshit was probably the best thing that could've happened to him.

[tromage2]

She is the way Thrall should be.

She has the true Orcish values and care for her ppl in mind.
BfA Thrall is crying in a corner that he is a failure and wants to hide in Outland.

[KrakHed]

Say what you will about Garrosh, but narrative-wise I value him more than all of our current cast combined. No matter if you like him or not, I think nobody can dispute how he enabled interesting stories with almost every character he interacted with. Saurfang, Vol'jin, Thrall, Jaina, Cairne are all examples of it. Characters like him are reason why I've always prefered Horde's in house interactions than Alliance's.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm actually thinking Vol'jin dodged a bullet there. Him staying mostly out of this whole bullshit was probably the best thing that could've happened to him.

Garrosh enabled interesting stories, but in the crudest manner possible. They shoved a Warchief on top of the Horde who was incompatible with its prior direction. They did that in Warcraft 3 too, but there was a massive defeat, humiliation, and years to justify trying to change. It wasn't a sudden shift with all the same people still around.

Garrosh didn't have any allies among the other Horde leaders because none of them were even philosophically adjacent to the Garrosh we got after TBC. Garrosh's story had two paths it could take. Learn to compromise or be ejected. Maybe there was a planned plot where he learned that he shouldn't be blindly imitating his father, or his impression of who his father was.

Garrosh was character with a lot of potential depth who could have developed a ton of meaningful relationships with the other Horde leaders, and really could have had a better character arc than literally any other Warcraft character if that potential was realized. I would have loved a story in which Garrosh toned things down a bit as he realized the necessity of being practical.

Which is to say that before we went full villain bat, there were signs that the war industry was using up a lot of the resources it was fighting for. If Garrosh had stopped while he was ahead, everything would have been fine. Fighting a war to destroy the Alliance is a pointless, immeasurably costly, endeavor. Following any leader who promises that is suicidal.

The ideal faction war would be one to push the Alliance aggressors the fuck out of the Barrens, blow up Northwatch, and so on. Secure the resources needed, secure the borders, and yeah. Then you're gold. Mission accomplished.

- - - Updated - - -

She is the way Thrall should be.

She has the true Orcish values and care for her ppl in mind.
BfA Thrall is crying in a corner that he is a failure and wants to hide in Outland.

She's kind of an idiot. However Thrall may have degenerated, there was a point he made once. You can't just go do stupid things because someone shouts "For the Horde!". Geya'rah only just learned that now.

[Darththeo]

Thanks for letting me know not to take you seriously, complete with insults. I leave you with an old favorite on the subject of atrocities.

Well, given that they have wrote Sylvanas effectively retconning her all the way to Wrathgate ... we can discount any of that she was actively a part of. Those were actions of Sylvanas/Forsaken ... not the Horde. She was ordered not to use the Blight/New Plague, and did so. Yes, Forsaken are Horde, but it was clear that Horde leadership had a problem.

That's Hillsbrad, Southshore, Andorhal and Gilneas. Also, Andorhal was in ruins and the Alliance and Horde fought over it to purge the Scourge ... it really doesn't even belong here on the list. Hillsbrad can also be removed, as that actions were done by Warden Stillwater ... not any Horde Leadership (again, based on image shown). He specifically didn't want what he was doing to get reported to Sylvanas. We can discount that as "Horde" as well.

So you have two Theramore and Theramore Survivors. Theramore was an act of war, Garrosh gave time to evacuate the city. If it had been empty, would the mana bomb been dropped? Who knows. Garrosh was at war, in war cities are destroyed. Garrosh viewed Theramore as a threat as it was used to ferry Alliance military personnel into Kalimdor. Terrible yes, but it was an act of war from an orc whose motive was to build a home for his people (at least in his head).

Theramore Survivors are the only real thing, and at that point, canonly all player characters were rebels at the time and we do not know how much of Garrosh's leadership remains.

Also, Dalaran was called the Purge of Dalaran, enough for Blood Elves to view Jaina as a "murderer" ... it is way more than 5. Also, I am convinced game world and the lore world aren't a 1:1 scale anyway.

[Jastall]

Say what you will about Garrosh, but narrative-wise I value him more than all of our current cast combined. No matter if you like him or not, I think nobody can dispute how he enabled interesting stories with almost every character he interacted with. Saurfang, Vol'jin, Thrall, Jaina, Cairne are all examples of it. Characters like him are reason why I've always prefered Horde's in house interactions than Alliance's.



As someone who publicly can't let the concept of faction war rest, even I agree with this now. I mean if this shit is what we're always going to be put through when it's faction war time, than fuck it, don't even try it anymore as far as I'm concerned.

Garrosh forced interactions, sure, but they were more or less always hostile and just ended up painting a target on his back. He's the new character in the 3rd season of a sitcom who is such as asshole that everyone hates him. Yeah, sure, he brings conflicts and plotlines, but one has to wonder what of that is good characterization and what is just the writers using him to push conflict for conflict's sake. Varian had kind of the exact same job for the Alliance, except he mellowed out over time instead.

Garrosh could have worked had he been shown to be right about some things encouraging him to forge onward, wrong about others and thus forced to eat some humble pie, and had relationships with Horde characters that weren't either servile submission or open hostility towards him. Instead we got Orc Hitler, which is a character path I can never defend.

[Super Dickmann]

Garrosh enabled interesting stories, but in the crudest manner possible. They shoved a Warchief on top of the Horde who was incompatible with its prior direction. They did that in Warcraft 3 too, but there was a massive defeat, humiliation, and years to justify trying to change. It wasn't a sudden shift with all the same people still around.

Garrosh forced interactions, sure, but they were more or less always hostile and just ended up painting a target on his back. He's the new character in the 3rd season of a sitcom who is such as asshole that everyone hates him. Yeah, sure, he brings conflicts and plotlines, but one has to wonder what of that is good characterization and what is just the writers using him to push conflict for conflict's sake. Varian had kind of the exact same job for the Alliance, except he mellowed out over time instead.

I disagree with it being sudden, the groundwork was alluded to vaguely in Outland and was very blatant in Lich King before the shift happened. But I do agree with the core sentiment that it's incompatible with the direction of the WC3 Horde. It's just that that's a good thing. To call it a direction is in itself charitable, because the WC3 Horde had no forward momentum. It was an extremely coherent organisation, with very specific values, beliefs and positions and a clear goal, but that goal was achieved and they shared those values because the orcs were essentially already turned into mini-Thralls and the only three stories that remained to be told were - facing the Legion (done in WC3), facing the Alliance who didn't forget what they used to be (TFT) and taming the land (also TFT). Then you're pretty much done. The group had no motive to do anything but vegetate and had no interior friction because the tauren and trolls in that incarnation are just orcs with less depth and backstory, which is fine for the hangers-on in an RTS faction literally called "Orcs", but less so for the protagonists of their own stories.

Garrosh, much like the Forsaken and to a lesser extent the blood elves were necessary additions to this profoundly dull setup because they added conflict and forward momentum, as was the Warsong still being involved in border skirmishes and the allusion to resource deprivation. It was only relative to these groups that not just the Alliance reacted to the Horde and we got some conflict going there, but that the Horde was forced to interact with itself, which would be unnecessary in the Thrall hivemind of WC3. Garrosh was the one who set the orcs apart from the trolls and tauren and who had those races actually gain some meaningful definition and differentiation that lasts to this day rather than being the equivalent of those two guys in Sin City. Ditto, the retcon to Durotar added some badly needed depth to a narratively suffocating Messiah figure and some outward conflict to deal with, to which Garrosh's regional aggression was one available solution that completely gelled with the warlike aspect of the orcs. And it was a regional war - it only became a total war for world domination at the final chapter of Tides of War, when the writers had already decided that they would put the orcs on their first trip on the sacrificial altar.

Could he have been written as less of an angry caricature in Wrath? Definitely. Did they go overboard in making Thrall a whimpering pansy who appoints slavers, is advised by slavers and wants his people to suffer out of racial guilt? Of course. A much better route as mentioned in another topic would be to just make them the differentiation between the slow and quick path - that the Shattering had knocked the orcs' already fragile agriculture off its mark after a costly war in the North that let's face it, they didnt' have all that much to do with. That Varian was still a hothead and that while Thrall would be right that they'd eventually be able to adopt a sustainable model, that would cause short-term pain and, to the orcs, appear as weakness before a blustering foreign adversary. Friction with the other two Kalimdor races is still effectively the same, but now both orcs have a point instead of one being the springboard for the other or one of them being the author with green facepaint who can do no wrong.

It's not that Garrosh was done excellently, though I maintain that Cataclysm was the best period for the Horde as a faction for every race except the blood elves in terms of standing out and each having their own identtiy and place in the cohesive whole, but that he was a badly needed course correction and that in the wake of his removal and the first Mists, it's been downhill, with this current position being the absolute nadir, all the faults of the WC3 Horde without the cultural coherence, clear identity, or plausible redemption, but with half the races being ill-fitting, a cast that's smaller than back when there were just three races and an indescribable amount of baggage that cant' be shunted off towards a scapegoat convincingly. Without even a clear reason to exist at all.

[Reinhart11]

@ Feanoro

I see. And yes, i agree in regards to the characters. In a lot of aspects, Baine and Calia are almost copies of Anduin so the question can be asked, why they even exist. Apart from the need to turn the Horde into the Alliance.

@ Krakhed

In regards to Garrosh, i get often time the impression that people only see what they wanted to see and turned him into a bigger villain when he really was in Cataclysm. The writing for this character wanted to portray him in a bad light, but what really took away any interesting potential for development were the portrayed interactions between him and over important characters of the Kalimdor Horde, like Cairne and Voljin and in this regard the behaviour of the latter. There was no room for anything positive. But oh well, it is what it is. My opinion of Garrosh is more in line with people like Wildberry i guess.

The problem with Thrall isn't really that he is willing to kill other members of the Horde. The problem is, that he is more willing to kill Horde than he is killing or fighting against the Alliance. At least in WoW. In my opinion his portrayal is really clear in that regard.

I don't think it was a coincidence at all that Baine safed a Proudmoore. Not at all. And that people are sick of Baine for being more willing to help the Alliance above even more than helping the Tauren themselves is more than justified.

Its the same problem all over again. The Horde leadership is riddled with characters that aren't first and foremost loyal to their own faction or people, but to a foreign power they see as superior in literally every important aspect. And that power, at least before Anduin, wasn't friendly. Which is simply absolutely unnecessary and bad writing in my opinion.

To solve this problem and to have an easier time to write the story, Blizzard should simply dissolve the current factions. Create some more homogeneous factions, who fit each other. If people want the WC 3 Horde of Thrall, thats not a problem. The Tauren, Darkspear, Frostwolves and other Orcs who align with Thralls and Baines views, Goblins like Gazlowe, Pandaren and such could represent this Horde without a problem. But in my opinion they should remove the more aggressive, militant parts of the Orcs and the Mag'har as well, who put their own people first and above anyone else, from Thralls Horde.

Let them be a separate Horde in the Lore, with Allies who fit them, like Ogre, Yaungol, non-playable Goren, Ogron, Gronn etc for example. Put them on another continent, preferably a continent where Anduins Alliance is not present and let them be more like the Iron Horde for example. These two entities could still have diplomatic relations, like non aggression pacts or trade. But they wouldn't be the same faction and would not be dragged into any war of the other unless it makes sense. Not that Thralls Horde and Anduins Alliance would ever have any reason to wage war against each other anyway.

Same goes for races like Forsaken and Blood Elves. They should not be part of Thralls Horde. And they should also not be part of a faction like the Iron Horde. Night Elves shouldn't be part of the Alliance of the Eastern Kingdoms a.k.a Anduins fanclub. These kind of factions just hurt the single races in them too much in my opinion, especially if they don't fit with each other.

Gameplay wise the players should be allowed to play with eachother across any faction if they so choose, but with an reputation system in place, that is at least somewhat in line with the Lore. Short example, its hard for an Orc to get the necessary reputation to be able to enter a Night Elf settlement. Or it be hard for a Goblin to get the necessary reputation to be able to enter Ironforge or Gnomereagan.

I think you misunderstood my point about Thrall fighting the Alliance. I agree with you, that it is pointless to fight the current Alliance, which consists of holy samaritians who will forgive everything done to them (apart from current Tyrande). But where our solution to this problem seems to be different. I personally think that the Alliance should become more interesting, with characters having different views, clashing with each other, having different goals that don't always align. Like the human kingdoms in the Alliance of Lordaeron for example. While you don't want any faction war. I guess your solution is more practical because the current writing team will never turn the Alliance into a more interesting faction. If they planned to do that, we wouldn't be in the current situation. But if we let go the faction war and the conflict between the playable races completely, we will end up with a very boring fantasy world and story i think. Because big world ending baddies will never be threatening, competent or win even minor, but meaninful, victories. They're not allowed to.

Not that i constantly would need war with the Alliance. As i said, i'm absolutely no fan of the current factions and their composing parts. I'd really like to see the Horde for example having wars against races like the Harpies, Quilboars, Centaur. Some of those would be more minor conflicts, others could be big conflicts. On Kalimdor for example, i think the Centaurs should play a much bigger role, be a much bigger threat, have a much bigger presence. That would also help the Night Elf / Horde conflict on Kalimdor, because even if the Horde outnumbers and would be able to overpower the Night Elves and their Allies on Kalimdor, they would always have to consider an enemy like the Centaurs and could never bring all their might to bare on the Night Elves alone. Checks and balance so to speak. Meanwhile the Night Elves could have their own minor or bigger problems in their regions, like Satyr and the corruption of the Emerald Dream and such stuff. Qiraji and Silithids could play the same role like Centaurs could. I never understood why these were only active when the Old Gods break free. Mantids and Nerubians were able to do their own thing as well. Something like this would turn the landscape of Kalimdor into an much more interesting place, because local problems can play a bigger role and turn out to be good story lines. Without the doom of the world hanging over everyone constantly.

Same examples could be made for the Eastern Kingdoms, or Northrend, or Pandaria. But i will stop here, or this post will never end.

Cheers.

[KrakHed]

I think you misunderstood my point about Thrall fighting the Alliance. I agree with you, that it is pointless to fight the current Alliance, which consists of holy samaritians who will forgive everything done to them (apart from current Tyrande). But where our solution to this problem seems to be different.

Well, to address any misunderstandings, my perspective is like so.

It's not the fault of characters like Thrall and Baine that the Alliance of WoW is portrayed as "Lawful Good Overdrive". Their lack of participation in the war against the Alliance, and their greater willingness to fight the Horde, fits their roles as heroic characters on the side of good fighting evil.

As such, I don't see it as a character problem. You could switch out the characters, and it'd be another guy playing the role as the last shred of conscience in the Horde. The last person willing to stand up for what's right as everyone else gleefully charges down a dark path.

To me, this is 100% a narrative problem. I don't see Baine as fundamentally flawed. I see him as broken and stunted by poor growth conditions. He needed to be the good guy in a narrative where that meant being the last voice for peace on a Horde that was backsliding into being monstrous conquerors. This meant developing relations with Alliance characters. Horde leaders besides Garrosh and Sylvanas were pretty irrelevant back then, so the only other relation developed was with him.

In regards to Garrosh, i get often time the impression that people only see what they wanted to see and turned him into a bigger villain when he really was in Cataclysm. The writing for this character wanted to portray him in a bad light, but what really took away any interesting potential for development were the portrayed interactions between him and over important characters of the Kalimdor Horde, like Cairne and Voljin and in this regard the behaviour of the latter. There was no room for anything positive. But oh well, it is what it is. My opinion of Garrosh is more in line with people like Wildberry i guess.

As for the other Horde leaders never giving Garrosh a chance, that's not really true. Vol'jin got angry and argued a bit, but Thrall talked him down from that. Baine never took such an aggressive stance with Garrosh. I think this was part of an early narrative that would have facilitated his growth as a character. Finding compromises with the other leaders and realizing why they had such a huge issue with the way he wanted to run things.

I 100% believe that Baine was set up to be Garrosh's closest ally, to temper his aggression, but the narrative didn't go that way. There are traces of lore about the Tauren being the only other race that Garrosh respected. In short, Baine now exists without the character he was meant to complete. The connection he was supposed to have in the Horde got full villain-batted, rather than being pulled back.

In Cataclysm, I didn't see him as a villain, but I saw him as what he was presented to be since Wrath. All of his supposed skill as a general was an informed attribute. Whenever we actually saw him lead an operation, he succeeded entirely on the charity of others.

In Northrend, Garrosh shows more interest in attacking the Alliance than in fighting smart. He disregards a massive threat building up in his backyard, sends minimal support despite the warnings, and Saurfang has to solve it for him. All throughout, he acts like a condescending prick. In the short stories, we see him underestimate and almost wipe against Quillboars. We see prophecies of how his attack on Gilneas would have resulted in the destruction of the Forsaken. While that's an admirable end, it doesn't show much faith in his abilities. In the Twilight Highlands, he sends his escort to attack the Alliance forces despite being warned against it, while in the territory of another hostile faction which is supposed to be the priority, and things turn out exactly as expected. The player is forced to take over diplomatic action and do everything, but somehow Garrosh is the one who gets credit and is praised as a strong Warchief for being "able to keep together a diverse set of races" despite having done nothing but fuck up.

That was the Garrosh we new in Cata. A chronic loser. Whenever he was leading a charge, he was sure to fail. He took to increasingly desperate measures, he kidnapped children and enslaved their parents to fail in Ashenvale. He finally succeeded against Theramore, his first success ever, by using the tactics of those who were once his enemies or whom he had personally executed for dishonorable tactics. Garrosh was never able to win until he lowered his standards.

And you know what the truth of Theramore was? It was just like Garrosh in Northrend. Through his own unmitigated incompetence, he allowed a threat to grow that would have easily wiped out Orgrimmar if someone didn't save his ass. In this case, Thrall and Kalecgos are the only reasons why Garrosh didn't cause the near extinction of the Orcs through being too negligent to recover the power source for his bomb. Even in his time of greatest victory, it was through the charity of others that it didn't bite him in the ass.

I personally think that the Alliance should become more interesting, with characters having different views, clashing with each other, having different goals that don't always align. Like the human kingdoms in the Alliance of Lordaeron for example. While you don't want any faction war. I guess your solution is more practical because the current writing team will never turn the Alliance into a more interesting faction. If they planned to do that, we wouldn't be in the current situation. But if we let go the faction war and the conflict between the playable races completely, we will end up with a very boring fantasy world and story i think. Because big world ending baddies will never be threatening, competent or win even minor, but meaninful, victories. They're not allowed to.

Back to this point, you bring up how big world ending baddies can never be threatening, competent, or win. Then you also bring up that the Alliance should be interesting. I think the Alliance is just as able to be interesting as world ending baddies are able to be competent.

This is my way of saying that both are a pipe dream. There are obvious ways it could be done, but Blizzard doesn't do them. I wanted to like Garrosh, but I was unable to overlook how he was regularly depicted as incompetently overaggressive. There were ways he could have been better, but it's clear Blizzard wasn't building to that. There are ways the Alliance could be interesting, but I've lost faith that they'll ever try. There are ways to make a balanced faction war, but the Horde is going to need a long, long time to recover any sense of justification. There are ways that big bads could work and actually be threatening, but that's not Blizzard's style. The most successful force of evil is always the Horde.

At this point, I'm fine if next expansion doesn't have the highest stakes. At this point, my ideal expansion plot for the Horde would be in building infrastructure, towns, farms, or whatever, and defending these all from attack. There's been enough wars that I'd rather focus on base building.

But to make a long story short, Thrall and Baine and others like them are not problems. There's nothing wrong with the Horde having noble and good characters, but they need an enemy they can fight while remaining noble and good. The problem is the Alliance's lack of ability to be presented as convincing antagonists. You might be able to sell me a faction war if Anduin and Jaina died or were overthrown, but even then I'd be leery.

[ReVnX]

In what world does this make Geya'rah a Sylvanas loyalist? I think they were just try to be consistent about the Mag'har not being around long enough to actually understand the political history of Azeroth. What makes less sense is Rexxar being at the meeting with Anduin because he's not a faction leader, and entire characterization was about how the Kul Tiran's violence against the Horde was extreme & unforgivable.

You're also forgetting Talanji, who is definitely not going to sign any kind of peace treaty with the Alliance, essentially making the Zandalar & Kul Tiran the heirs to the Horde/Alliance conflict

And do not forget about Tyrande. She is still after vengea.. I mean justice

Faction conflict will always exist

[Venziir]

Thanks for letting me know not to take you seriously, complete with insults. I leave you with an old favorite on the subject of atrocities.

Andorhal was destroyed by the Scourge though, not the Horde. In fact, both factions fight over that town, they fight both each other AND the Scourge who are still in control of it.