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  1. #21
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    No, we have a tablet in Zul Farrak, which has been there since Vanilla and in BfA there was another mention, I think on a tablet too, in Zuldazar. And I don't know why people keep on about Traveler being a children's book, it's a good story and it's also a canon lore source. ^^
    Because its Childrens book were they, maybe introduced a big bad, that a majority of the playerbase would never read or know about because the majority doesn't even read the short stories on the WoW website so they wouldn't read that, and then said playerbase would complain about it. They have before, they have with BFA

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Because its Childrens book were they, maybe introduced a big bad, that a majority of the playerbase would never read or know about because the majority doesn't even read the short stories on the WoW website so they wouldn't read that.
    Sooo? the majority of players doesnt even care that much about lore, for them Mueh'zala will be just another dude theyll kill to get loot.
    And for Zul'farrak:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h9Yx1jxmi4
    literally 1min google, and there it is.
    Father of sleep IS him.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    But what is Helya even doing, why tell us she's getting stronger...Why tell us she wasn't really defeated? Why fake her defeat, which freed Odyn? She has to be plotting, she has to be scheming but to what end? And is she still in play now, or is she on the bench with the likes Xal'atath, and Hakkar?
    All questions for them to explore in a full fledged "Death" themed expansion. Her connection to Death makes me wonder what her role is in Sylvanas' master's role. There's no way Sylvanas is above her.

  4. #24
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvDnnY5qdhc

    Literally his first quote is:

    "Before the last shadow falls, the father of sleep shall savor his feast."

    Father of sleep is one of the titles of Mueh'zala since classic: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Tablet_of_Theka

    Now combine that with the fact that hes a powerful death-entity who feeds on souls, has recently been pushed with the 2 traveller books, and Sylvanas feeding souls to a "hungering darkness" she "wants to unleash", and this not rlly speculation at this point anymore. Ofc its not 100% confirmed, but highly, HIGHLY likely.

    Edit: In the second traveller book, Mueh'zala himself also quotes something thats awfully similar to what has happened in BfA: There would be a reckoning, the battle would come (=Battle for Azeroth), the fire would burn (=Teldrassil), and Mueh'zala would feast on all of Azeroth.
    My eyes have been opened, interesting, but I'm still not trying to talk about Mueh'zala though, I want to know about Helya. Which "you can't kill death itself" has been said about her. I just want to know could she still be in play here, or is she just a loose thread and could she, if any, have a connection to N'zoth

  5. #25
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    IMO Helya's boss is the entity that Odyn gave his eye to all those centuries ago. The rules of the Shadowlands are something she has no control over as we see when she tries to stop us from leaving her realm:

    Ashildir yells: Your terms were met, Helya. It seems even you must honor your word.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    But god damn, I'm not trying to talk about Mueh'zala!Lol, I want to know what the fuck is going on with Helya :P
    Welcome. I'm surprised this hasn't devolved into a classic v retail thread yet. IMO, the lore in retail is getting too complicated. We've already dealt with Heyla. It would be disapointing to go back. I liked classic lore, when you killed something, it stayed dead. Until they run out of ideas and bring dragons back of course.
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    why so mad bro

  7. #27
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Considering hwo some of the Island Expedition little stuff that we learn and some of it gets relevant in 8.3(One of the Mantid being a boss in Ny'alotha is a thing) and the Amarthet or w/e from Island expedition is relevant in 8.3. I'm sure Helya will be relevant...not 8.3 though..unless Odyn suddenly comes to us in 8.3.5 and says "Helya yet lives"


    Welcome. I'm surprised this hasn't devolved into a classic v retail thread yet. IMO, the lore in retail is getting too complicated. We've already dealt with Heyla. It would be disapointing to go back. I liked classic lore, when you killed something, it stayed dead. Until they run out of ideas and bring dragons back of course.

    Its not that complicated and if someone not dying makes it complicated..well thats not Blizzard's fault.
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  8. #28
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    Sooo? the majority of players doesnt even care that much about lore, for them Mueh'zala will be just another dude theyll kill to get loot.
    And for Zul'farrak:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h9Yx1jxmi4
    literally 1min google, and there it is.
    Father of sleep IS him.
    Yes but do you really think...putting blatant nods to events from the current expansion in a childrens book that came out prior, to alluded to the big bad, from an Expansion that was kind of rewritten halfway through makes sense? Or even plausible for Blizzard to maintain that much directional focus on their story I mean, its really on the nose and that book came out in 2016...2 years, and a couple months before BfA even launched...

    Yes father of sleep, someone said father of time, which is Amun'thul.
    Last edited by Evaddon; 2019-10-18 at 01:33 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    Because its Childrens book were they, maybe introduced a big bad, that a majority of the playerbase would never read or know about because the majority doesn't even read the short stories on the WoW website so they wouldn't read that, and then said playerbase would complain about it. They have before, they have with BFA
    Well yes, but that's the case with all the books. And they can just introduce Mueh'zala properly into the game... (or not, like Calia for example ) The name is ingame since Vanilla and they can build their story upon that, everybody who has read the books simply has additional context and story. It has never been different, no matter if any given book was a children's book or not.

    Or they'll just take the Ysildar entity instead of Mueh'zala, although they might just make it the same thing, just with different names if that is indeed 'Death'.

  10. #30
    Ehh I don't buy it. But we will likely see her again due to the hinting of a death expansion and the island expedition item.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  11. #31
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    IMO Helya's boss is the entity that Odyn gave his eye to all those centuries ago. The rules of the Shadowlands are something she has no control over as we see when she tries to stop us from leaving her realm:

    Ashildir yells: Your terms were met, Helya. It seems even you must honor your word.
    So it all connects back to "The Hungering Darkness", who apparently is the upper Hierarchy to the Shadowlands? Or does the Darkness directly appose, the hierarchy of the Shadowlands? And this thing, is apart of the bargin Sylvanas made with Helya in some way?


    SO MANY QUESTIONS! So many dangling threads and ideas from just the two last expansions alone!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    My eyes have been opened, interesting, but I'm still not trying to talk about Mueh'zala though, I want to know about Helya. Which "you can't kill death itself" has been said about her. I just want to know could she still be in play here, or is she just a loose thread and could she, if any, have a connection to N'zoth
    IF we go to Shadowlands for a death themed expansion I’d hope we see ALL of the death related entities we’ve encountered thus far and some new ones. So to answer your question. We’re still likely to tango with Helya at least one more time.

    Now. I would think even if she is working with Nzoth he sees her as an underling. The question is is Helya on tier with Aszhara or Sylvanas or a different tier all together. Even as powerful as Helya is we do t know how Nzoth would view that

  13. #33
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wanax View Post
    IF we go to Shadowlands for a death themed expansion I’d hope we see ALL of the death related entities we’ve encountered thus far and some new ones. So to answer your question. We’re still likely to tango with Helya at least one more time.

    Now. I would think even if she is working with Nzoth he sees her as an underling. The question is is Helya on tier with Aszhara or Sylvanas or a different tier all together. Even as powerful as Helya is we do t know how Nzoth would view that
    Most definitely would hope so!

    Well Helya fought the Old Gods before, locked away the Elemental Planes, and could make different dimensions...so I'd assume she'd be on a level all her own. She was Titanforged Watcher and if she was corrupted? I'd think that would be a great use to almost anyone. So I could see why N'zoth would want her...especially if she could get him into the Shadowlands...or even make him his own realm as in Ny'alotha? Maybe?

  14. #34
    So, here is what Xal'atath had to say about Helya in Legion:

    "Loken did find work turning her. But in truth, Odyn's arrogance takes most of the credit."

    To me that seems like Xal'atath considers Helya 'turned' to the Old Gods, which may or may not be completely true and maybe also not actually something Helya would see the same way. And of course Odyn did more than half the work, because he enslaved her and turned her into an undead, because he thought his will has to be followed and he knows best. Which was the reason Helya's mind was already darkened and she gave in to Loken as easily as she apparently did.

  15. #35
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    I don't even know N'zoth's plan. Some might of hinted he WANTS to be put into the blade to avoid death. Thing is....how would that be beneficial for him, he's still pretty vulnerable in the blade. It can't be that though.... there must be something else for his goal unless he's just dying and thats that.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowmatrix View Post
    IMO Helya's boss is the entity that Odyn gave his eye to all those centuries ago. The rules of the Shadowlands are something she has no control over as we see when she tries to stop us from leaving her realm:

    Ashildir yells: Your terms were met, Helya. It seems even you must honor your word.
    But helheim isn't connected to the shadowlands. Its a world helya build herself like deepholm or the firelands.

    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    So, here is what Xal'atath had to say about Helya in Legion:

    "Loken did find work turning her. But in truth, Odyn's arrogance takes most of the credit."

    To me that seems like Xal'atath considers Helya 'turned' to the Old Gods, which may or may not be completely true and maybe also not actually something Helya would see the same way. And of course Odyn did more than half the work, because he enslaved her and turned her into an undead, because he thought his will has to be followed and he knows best. Which was the reason Helya's mind was already darkened and she gave in to Loken as easily as she apparently did.
    I think you can compare this to the pawn whisper. Did Magni help the old gods? Yes. Is he a servant/supporter of the old gods? no. Same for helya.
    Loken confirmed that odyn had restrained helyas free will and promised to restore it if she locks odyn away. Its not sure if she even knew that loken was corrupted by yogg-saron. Nevertheless she did him a big favour.
    The only thing we can say for certain is that odyn is a prick.
    Last edited by Foolicious; 2019-10-18 at 02:01 AM.

  17. #37
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    So, here is what Xal'atath had to say about Helya in Legion:

    "Loken did find work turning her. But in truth, Odyn's arrogance takes most of the credit."

    To me that seems like Xal'atath considers Helya 'turned' to the Old Gods, which may or may not be completely true and maybe also not actually something Helya would see the same way. And of course Odyn did more than half the work, because he enslaved her and turned her into an undead, because he thought his will has to be followed and he knows best. Which was the reason Helya's mind was already darkened and she gave in to Loken as easily as she apparently did.
    So that being said...if Helya was/is in league with the Old Gods, N'zoth, she did so willingly without need to be corrupted because the anger,the hate,the envy it was already in her and since Undeath gives a sort of immunity to Old God corruption..she, like Sylvanas is free for of her own will, and that could also tie in some connection between Yogg'saron (since he corrupted Loken), The Lich King, and The Frozen Thrones connection to the Shadowlands!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I don't even know N'zoth's plan. Some might of hinted he WANTS to be put into the blade to avoid death. Thing is....how would that be beneficial for him, he's still pretty vulnerable in the blade. It can't be that though.... there must be something else for his goal unless he's just dying and thats that.
    I was thinking he wants to physically enter the Shadowlands via The Black Blade...but to what end, is unforeseen at the moment. But Sylvanas having the Blade, is definitely apart of his plan. So he wants whatever to happen, to happen

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    But helheim isn't connected to the shadowlands. Its a world helya build herself like deepholm or the firelands.



    I think you can compare this to the pawn whisper. Did Magni help the old gods? Yes. Is he a servant/supporter of the old gods? no. Same for helya.
    Loken confirmed that odyn had restrained helyas free will and promised to restore it if she locks odyn away. Its not sure if she even knew that loken was corrupted by yogg-saron. Nevertheless she did him a big favour.
    The only thing we can say for certain is that odyn is a prick.
    Yes, but as a Death entity, she herself is connected to the Shadowlands. Willingly or not it would seem?

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Foolicious View Post
    But helheim isn't connected to the shadowlands. Its a world helya build herself like deepholm or the firelands.
    Helheim might still be connected to the Shadowlands, the same way the Elemental Planes are connected to the living world.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    I don't even know N'zoth's plan. Some might of hinted he WANTS to be put into the blade to avoid death. Thing is....how would that be beneficial for him, he's still pretty vulnerable in the blade. It can't be that though.... there must be something else for his goal unless he's just dying and thats that.
    Maybe within the blade is the only way he can enter the shadowlands. It allows him to cross the threshold without detection or harm or something along those lines.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Evaddon View Post
    So that being said...if Helya was/is in league with the Old Gods, N'zoth, she did so willingly without need to be corrupted because the anger,the hate,the envy it was already in her and since Undeath gives a sort of immunity to Old God corruption..she, like Sylvanas is free for of her own will, and that could also tie in some connection between Yogg'saron (since he corrupted Loken), The Lich King, and The Frozen Thrones connection to the Shadowlands!

    ...
    Undeath does not make you immune to the Old Gods. The Old Gods create undead and control them just fine. The Scourge undead might be immune or resistant, because they are created with the Lich King's will, who was in turn created with Sargeras's will.

    The reason why so many people think that undead are somehow immune is the comic with the void whispering about Sylvanas being allied to the enemy of all and Alleria should kill her KILL HER. Nothing in there that says anything about undeath or all undead. Only Sylvanas herself (and her ally, the "enemy of all") and nothing about undeath.

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