Turkish troops launch offensive into northern Syria, says Erdogan

[Skroe]

I'd wager to move them to Croatia. They hate the Turks and the Ruskies with white hot passion.

Well I say Romania because Romania has the base, and is nearly the same easy-access to Russia's soft underbelly that Turkey provides. Lest anyone have any confusion why those nuclear bombs are there.



Long story short, Turkey was useful during the Cold War and is useful today because geography makes Russia defending attacks from the south rather hard, so a long standing part of US strategy is to send bombers in from Turkey (B-1s, B-52s and B-2s stopping over). The B-52s would launch nuclear air launched cruise missiles (stored in the US) to destroy Russia's limited southern air defenses en masse, and then the B-1s and B-2s would go "behind enemy lines" hunting for mobile launchers.

Simulations by universities and think takes give a really high success rate for such a thing. We'd get most of them.

The thing is, it may not be necessary anymore. Nuclear bombs and warheads made a kind of sense decades ago because precision guidance was not a thing. If you can't hit accurately then what? Blow up the entire area. But in a world with precision guidance that could destroy bunkers, mobile launchers and air defenses all on their own, what's the purpose of a nuclear bomb other than to take out a base in one hit or other massed forces (which mobile launchers by definition won't be... they'll be very widely dispersed)? Not much.

To put a bigger perspective on this, the people most concerned about this is Russia. Because if the US were to build air launched or US-launched hypersonic cruise missiles that could Strike Russia in ~30-60 minutes from extreme range and do huge damage non-nuclearly, then it opens the door to the US having a technology Russia's doesn't , but could only be countered with nuclear weapons themselves.... but Russia is subject to a warhead cap on the counter when the US wouldn't be on Hypersonics.

Moral of the story, fuck with Russia and keep then in Romania. But in the name of God, get them out of Turkey.

[JohnBrown1917]

I don't give a shit about Karl Marx. I didn't create an account for this, I just found your comments really fucking stupid with your username.

Coming from the guy who does not know the difference between anarchism and tankies or that communism, as an ideology, became a thing becease of Karl Marx writing.



Lol

[Miracle Mira]

Coming from the guy who does not know the difference between anarchism and tankies or that communism, as an ideology, became a thing becease of Karl Marx writing.



Lol

Communism is communism. You can try to go "It's not real communism" all you want as an attempt to excuse the atrocities committed under communism but that doesn't undo them.

[JohnBrown1917]

Communism is communism. You can try to go "It's not real communism" all you want as an attempt to excuse the atrocities committed under communism but that doesn't undo them.

Try reading an wiki article about anarchism and karl marx. Ill be waiting on your next joke lol

[Shadowferal]

Someone explain to me how Russia is benefiting from this - because for Trump to do this and piss off so many of his GOP allies, he must be either getting something for it or paying someone back.

Not a subtle hint here, beyond tracking money; Syria Invasion Forces Russia To Halt Oil Projects

Russian oil giant Rosneft has temporarily suspended works at one block in Iraq’s semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan due to security concerns because of the blocks’ proximity to the Syrian border, Rosneft’s First Vice President, Eric Maurice Liron, said on Thursday.

Rosneft has signed several agreements with Kurdistan dating back from 2017 and 2018 to cooperate in exploration, production, infrastructure development, logistics, and trading of oil and gas in Kurdistan.

Rosneft has Production Sharing Agreements (PSAs) on five production blocks in the Iraqi Kurdistan.

However, in view of the current unrest in Syria, with the Turkish offensive against the Kurds in northern Syria, Rosneft has decided to temporarily halt works on block 8 because it is close to the Iraqi Kurdistan’s border with Syria. Rosneft continues works on block 11 in Kurdistan, Liron told reporters on Thursday, as carried by the Russian news agency TASS.

The Russian oil giant is suspending the works at block 8 until the safety of the company’s employees is guaranteed, Liron said, but noted that Rosneft is in Kurdistan for the long term. Production plans for block 11 remain unchanged, while the closeness to the Syrian border and the safety concerns are the only deterrents to Rosneft’s plans for block 8.

----------------

Can't forget that Putin pulls Trump's strings.

[Breccia]

Once again, it's time for Guess the Speaker!

The decision to abandon the Kurds violates one of our most sacred duties. It strikes at American honor. What we have done to the Kurds will stand as a blood stain in the annals of American history. There are broad strategic implications of our decision as well. Iranian and Russian interests in the Middle East have been advanced by our decision. At a time when we're applying maximum pressure on Iran by giving them a stronger hand in Syria, we've actually weakened that pressure. Russia's objective to play a greater role in the Middle East has also been greatly enhanced. The Kurds, out of desperation, have now aligned with [Syrian President] Assad.

"That could be literally anyone but Trump."

It's Mitt Romney. Wanna see the video?

[Shalcker]

Because Assad wins, Iran wins, Putin gets to negotiate a treaty without screwing his allies because the Kurds aren't his allies, Putin gets to sell weapons across the aforementioned countries with impunity, the destabilized region raises their oil prices, and most importantly Trump and by proxy the US looks like a bunch of losers who couldn't even negotiate with a NATO country to stop them from committing a genocide, next question :P

A-a-a-a-and... they actually negotiate to promptly stop it.

Looks like a win for everyone involved.

[ati87]

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/3/9/1...t-turkey-lobby

So I think we all fucking forgot about something very interesting related to this whole Turkish disaster.

Remember when Flynn admitted to working as an unregistered foreign agent for the Turkish government?

Does that play into any of this at all?

Honestly I think your just looking to much into this with Flynn. There is no grand plan behind Trumps actions.

- - - Updated - - -

Turkey should be removed from NATO. Period. There is no mechanism do to that, but NATO allies should basically cut them off so they leave on their own.

And we need to move our nuclear weapons to Romania.

Turkey has there own national intrest and part of that also means respecting that they will never allow a group that has such a close tie with a separatist group to create there own country. This stance is no different then if tomorrow Hawai would ask to separate or Porte Rico, the US government would never allow that either.

Turkey has been a excellent Nato partner if you look at it objectively. Turkey should have said ''hey US/UK you invaded Iraq and created ISIS maybe you should take more then 10 refugees)

BUt then again I thinkyou once wrote that you supported invading Iraq no? That's a bit telling.

[Skulltaker]

Turkey has there own national intrest and part of that also means respecting that they will never allow a group that has such a close tie with a separatist group to create there own country. This stance is no different then if tomorrow Hawai would ask to separate or Porte Rico, the US government would never allow that either.

Turkey has been a excellent Nato partner if you look at it objectively. Turkey should have said ''hey US/UK you invaded Iraq and created ISIS maybe you should take more then 10 refugees)

BUt then again I thinkyou once wrote that you supported invading Iraq no? That's a bit telling.

First of all:

"There" is an indication of a direction, as in 'I put the boxes down over there.'

"They're" is the abbreviated form of 'they are'. "They're over there = They are over there."

"their" indicates belonging or possession, as in "Turkey has their own interests."

While they sound similar, the meaning of each one is rather different from the other. This isn't rocket science, and it is hard to take people seriously who cannot manage to make a simple distinction like that.

Second, it isn't up to Turkey to decide who gets to form their own nation, and violently suppressing people just because you don't like them is a human rights violation.

[Gaidax]

Second, it isn't up to Turkey to decide who gets to form their own nation, and violently suppressing people just because you don't like them is a human rights violation.

Sorry, we forgot that holy right belongs only to the Great US.

Of course it's up to Turkey or Syria to decide, durr. Just as it's for Spain to decide there won't be a country named Catalonia, for example.

[Skulltaker]

Sorry, we forgot that holy right belongs only to the Great US.

Of course it's up to Turkey or Syria to decide, durr. Just as it's for Spain to decide there won't be a country named Catalonia, for example.

No, it 'belongs' to the UN. And yes, what happens in Spain isn't right, either.

[Gaidax]

No, it 'belongs' to the UN. And yes, what happens in Spain isn't right, either.

UN? lol...

You mean the organization that can't agree about anything and has Saudi Arabia as a proud member of the Commission on the Status of Women?

I'll give you some newsflash. UN has the right to recognize the formation of the country, it does not really create one.

[Gaidax]

It is up to Spain to decide if there will be a country that carves of their sovereign land and leaves with it. It is not up to Turkey to decide if there will be a country that carves of sovereign land of a neighbour same way it is not up to Turkey to OCCUPY that land in the first place. It is such a ridiculous argument to make since these are exactly opposites; one is a state defending its sovereignty and the other is a state defiling the sovereignty of its neighbours.

You are right it's up to Assad and he has none of it, so case closed. That's why this whole country making grandstanding is pointless, I'm not even sure why people brought it up.

[Skulltaker]

UN? lol...

You mean the organization that can't agree about anything and has Saudi Arabia as a proud member of the Commission on the Status of Women?

I'll give you some newsflash. UN has the right to recognize the formation of the country, it does not really create one.

And people have the right to self determination, which is something both Syria and Turkey acknowledge. So again, it's not up to either to allow or hinder the Kurds to form their own nation if they hold the majority of the population. It's up to the Kurds, and hindering them with military force remains a human rights violation. I'm somewhat puzzled by you defending this.

[Gaidax]

And people have the right to self determination, which is something both Syria and Turkey acknowledge. So again, it's not up to either to allow or hinder the Kurds to form their own nation if they hold the majority of the population. It's up to the Kurds, and hindering them with military force remains a human rights violation. I'm somewhat puzzled by you defending this.

They do, however this does not mean that the surrounding nations or Syria itself for that matter has to roll over and just let everyone do whatever they want.

Catalan people have right for self-determination... and where did it get them? They were literally suppressed by force and their leaders jailed and yet I don't hear such big noise about it here.

In case of Kurds, Turkey has some very real claims against them, after all they are a hostile armed force on their border with ties to internationally recognized terrorist group fighting Turkey.

[Skroe]

Sorry, we forgot that holy right belongs only to the Great US.

Of course it's up to Turkey or Syria to decide, durr. Just as it's for Spain to decide there won't be a country named Catalonia, for example.

No it is not a "holy right", but the US is alone in its power in to create a reality whereby a new country exists where there was not any before. We've done it dozens of times in the 20th century. Kosovo was one of the latest. We will do it again.

Syria and Turkey have no such power or such right. Syria's government lost legitimacy when it started to attack its own people and used chemical weapons against them. The greatest mistake of Obama's Presidency... one that we are STILL paying for, is we let Assad waltz over the red line for violating the chemical weapons prohibition, rather than completely annihilating the Syrian armed forces for that transgression.

Turkey has no such power. The coup a few years ago and the fragility of the military forces on display paint it clearly as what it is. Another local authoritarian bully hell bent on continuing its happy history of neighbor slaughtering neighbor. The perpetual war of peoples in Eurasia. Thank God for vast oceans.

Middle power countries do not get to decide. Donald Trump single handedly created this catastrophe against the advice of every single one of his advisers who had created an effective reality of an independent Kurdish state in Syria for five years, with but what... a few hundred US forces acting as a tripwire? That is power. Power our national wet fart of a President knows not how to wield.

But he will not be President forever. Or even much longer. And then the bill will come due to those who capitalize on his ineptitude. The bill always comes do.

[Gaidax]

No it is not a "holy right", but the US is alone in its power in to create a reality whereby a new country exists where there was not any before. We've done it dozens of times in the 20th century. Kosovo was one of the latest. We will do it again.

Right now you need to concentrate on fixing your own shit.

US is not what it used to be back in the 20th century and as the time goes on its power will wane. At very most US has clout to have another shot or two at what you allowed yourselves a decade or two ago and that's about it and it won't be burning it for Kurds, who are more than questionable allies for US. (BTW, Rojava allies of US, nice joke).

In that specific part of the world US became a bit player. Whatever happens in Syria and Turkey is largely out of US hands and US has little appetite at the moment to invest in that place further.

Syria was literally handed to Russia by the impotent international policy of Obama and in my opinion quitting it altogether at this point is the correct course of action. People are 8 years late to the party here, should have thought about Kurds and what not 8 years before when US had a real chance to remake Syria in its image.

[Skulltaker]

They do, however this does not mean that the surrounding nations or Syria itself for that matter has to roll over and just let everyone do whatever they want.

Catalan people have right for self-determination... and where did it get them? They were literally suppressed by force and their leaders jailed and yet I don't hear such big noise about it here.

In case of Kurds, Turkey has some very real claims against them, after all they are a hostile armed force on their border with ties to internationally recognized terrorist group fighting Turkey.

As I've said, what happens in Spain isn't right either. But a lot of whataboutisms isn't going to change anything about the subject.

As for the internationally recognized terror organization, which one would that be? The PKK? Last time I checked the UN doesn't acknowledge them as a Terror organisation. Did that change?

[Gaidax]

As I've said, what happens in Spain isn't right either. But a lot of whataboutisms isn't going to change anything about the subject.

As for the internationally recognized terror organization, which one would that be? The PKK? Last time I checked the UN doesn't acknowledge them as a Terror organisation. Did that change?

PKK is recognized to be a terror organization by EU, UK, US and other 12 states. That's pretty damn international there.

Your precious paper tiger UN does not matter in slightest.

[Skroe]

Turkey has there own national intrest and part of that also means respecting that they will never allow a group that has such a close tie with a separatist group to create there own country. This stance is no different then if tomorrow Hawai would ask to separate or Porte Rico, the US government would never allow that either.

Turkey has been a excellent Nato partner if you look at it objectively. Turkey should have said ''hey US/UK you invaded Iraq and created ISIS maybe you should take more then 10 refugees)

BUt then again I think you once wrote that you supported invading Iraq no? That's a bit telling.

Turkey's national interests - denying an independent Kurdistan that would exist outside its borders - are illegitimate. Turkey, yet another Eurasian country with artificial borders, has only ever projected its own insecurity about those borders on the Kurds. What did it define them as? "Mountain Turks"? Laughable. Its just the old story of peoples in the old world doing what they do best and have done best since time immemorial - slaughtering their neighbor and taking their land.

We Americans got out of that business before there was such a thing as the Armenian Genocide. And we've largely made our peace with it. Unlike the Turkish government which lacks the confidence in itself to face its own historical demons.

The argument you are making about independence movements is a very old internet argument dating to the 1990s. It was used then, on the forums of the times, with respect to the break up of the now former Yugoslavia and potential Chechen independence. The argument is specious for a simple reason: the complexity of every country's historical, ethnic and political status makes a unifying rule for the legitimacy of independence movements impossible to construct. It is on a case by case base. In the case of Kosovo, the ethnic cleansing occurring by Serbs was deemed by the greatest powers in the world to have caused Serbia to forfeit the rights and claims on Kosovo and the people therein. Legitimacy of rule is predicated on the nature of that rule.

Equally so, Assad is illegitimate, because of how he has wielded his power. A President who turns chemical weapons against his own people loses the right to rule, and a minority government using those weapons to oppress other groups losing the right to claim continuance of the privilege of ruling.

Under the US Constitution, State succession is illegal and that is legitimzied by the fact that the US government does not abuse its power and forsake its legitimacy over the states that constitute it. If Puerto Rico wants independence, as a commonwealth, that is their right. Every 10 years or so, they put it to a poll. Catalonian independence without assent of the central government of Spain is illegal under EU law and nothing the Spanish government has done in its democratic era denies them the historic right to continue governing Catalonia. It has legitimacy.

As for Turkey's role in NATO, they've been an extremely unreliable partner since Erdogan came to power. They've were extraordinarily difficult to work with during the Iraq War. They let the US and its Arab allies begin the war against ISIS without their help (they didn't let the US use the air base until way later). They have brought the S400 system into a NATO country.

Most of all, modern (post-Cold War) NATO is about liberal democratic values and Erdogan - a dictator - has systematically attacked democracy and human rights in his country. If he had done nothing else, that alone would be grounds for expulsion. It is the same reason Hungary needs to be looked at for suspension, at least. Most NATO countries are not great contributors to European defense - NATO's core mission- in more than just manpower, and even that is limited in most cases (albeit not with Turkey). Turkey, with how incapable its arms industries are at producing domestic weapons, has even less endurance at staying in a fight than the other big European countries. Thats why its been hoarding F-16 parts. That's why it's up shits creek since being booted out of the F-35 program. Since the military value is questionable, it falls to territory and political values.

On territory... it's a sacrifice we should be willing to make. Again, moving our bombers to Romania can threaten Russia basically the same way. Romania was closed to us during the Cold War. Now it is not. Thus for that purpose, we do not need Turkey anymore.

On values... if Turkey won't commit to liberal democracy in full, then it has no business in the room.

I am new to this position in the past year. Up until a year ago, I was all for turning a blind eye to Turkey's misbehavior in the name of the value that it brought to alliance. But I've been convinced, by its deeds, by its words and by the coalescing consensus among American security experts that it is time to make Turkey unwelcome in NATO, so it exits.

As for the Iraq War, I supported it back in 2003. It is 2019. I've changed my opinion on that many years ago. Unlike many Americans, I didn't retcon my history. I own it. I am informed by it. I changed my mind as the facts changed. You know... just like I did with Turkey.

Today, I'm a non-interventionist by in large. I want the US focused on the big picture stuff - China and Russia mostly. If folks in Eurasia want to butcher their neighbors, once a rebalanced foreign policy is in place, everybody there gets to own the consequences of it. I know its fashionable among contemporary people living in Eurasia to think their cities will never be destroyed again. That entire generations of their countrymen will never be wiped out. That they can tend their fields, walk their cities, play their (video) games / leisure activities, or what have you.

They aren't the first generation of people living in Eurasia to think that. They aren't the first generation of people who think that the current settlement is the everlasting one. This one won't last either. Especially as and if America refocuses on China and Russia. There will be an veritable ocean of blood across vast swathes of it. Especially as climate change and population growth puts pressure across the Arc of Instability.

To which I say again, thank God for the Atlantic and Pacific. And when everyone in Eurasia is done murdering each other once again, Americans will trade with whoever is left, just like the last three times.