[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Slant]

Well, at least the EU got exactly what they wanted. No red line was crossed.

For the Brits on the other hand...

Maybe a good training for trade negotiations to come.

This isn't just red lines not being crossed. As it turns out, from the commentary, the EU has done it again... they convinced Boris to swallow a deal that's shittier than May's and force him to either throw the DUP under the bus or lose the vote in the Commons. Either way, he can't blame the EU, because the EU already signalled agreement today.

How they managed to pull this off, no idea... but that's why we have them.

[Flarelaine]

Do we have a time set for the Commons debate? I may look up some livestream.

[mojojojo202]

I'm taking all this as a good sign. The fact that the ERG are prepared to vote for something that they specifically legislated to make illegal last year suggests to me that they realise they are on the brink of losing and are desparate. We just need to hold our nerve, vote this deal down and force the issue. Worst case scenario, we get a second referendum. Best case scenario is revocation of Article 50.

Like the rest of them dribbles knows that the writing is on the wall; hence his spastic cheerleading on here for the last couple of days. Thrashing around throwing insults and crowing about in all directions with no identifiable sense of purpose. This is the last hurrah before his dream dies, and you can bet he knows it.

I dont get it.

When are you going to have this referendum?

Juncker has signaled the EU aren't interested in another extension.

As desperate as Brexiteers sound a huge amount of Remainers seem utterly delusional.

[Jessicka]

I think it depends on Saturday. If the deal is voted down and then there is a succesful vote for a referendum then I cannot imagine the EU not giving the UK an extension. But if the deal is voted down, there is no vote for a referendum (or an unsuccesful one) and the Remainers still cannot decide to do a vote of no confidence, the EU should offer no extension.

Seems tricky to have both a referendum and a VONC. It takes logistically longer to hold a referendum, because reasons, than organise a general election. I mean, if we get a GE, then a referendum is basically assured, but giving Boris a straight referendum could actually head off a GE, and regardless of outcome remain in power for at least another 3 years.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Juncker has signaled the EU aren't interested in another extension.

Juncker has nothing to do with granting an extension, and the people who actually do have indicated that an extension for a 3rd referendum/general election would be granted.

[Gorsameth]

I dont get it.

When are you going to have this referendum?

Juncker has signaled the EU aren't interested in another extension.

As desperate as Brexiteers sound a huge amount of Remainers seem utterly delusional.

Juncker has no say in whether or not there will be an extension
Tusk on the otherhand has not ruled out another extension.

[Mayhem]

Juncker has nothing to do with granting an extension, and the people who actually do have indicated that an extension for a 3rd referendum/general election would be granted.

Only if the referendum actually leads somewhere. The EU isn't interested in giving an extension for a referendum that brings about the same outcome again.

[Jessicka]

Only if the referendum actually leads somewhere. The EU isn't interested in giving an extension for a referendum that brings about the same outcome again.

Well given we actually have a deal now, the 'leave' option is far less nebulous and better quantifiable, so people will know exactly what they're getting.

[dribbles]

I'm taking all this as a good sign. The fact that the ERG are prepared to vote for something that they specifically legislated to make illegal last year suggests to me that they realise they are on the brink of losing and are desparate. We just need to hold our nerve, vote this deal down and force the issue. Worst case scenario, we get a second referendum. Best case scenario is revocation of Article 50.

Like the rest of them dribbles knows that the writing is on the wall; hence his spastic cheerleading on here for the last couple of days. Thrashing around throwing insults and crowing about in all directions with no identifiable sense of purpose. This is the last hurrah before his dream dies, and you can bet he knows it.

That is so not the case. This is the best compromise from no deal brexiteers you remainers are going to get, vote for the deal on Saturday or get no deal.

Moderates like me have for a short time limit compromised, if extreme remainers choose not to and this deal is voted down it will be full steam ahead for no deal.

Labour and their position is all over the place and in no fit state of opposition to fight a general election which is coming soon. They face electoral annihilation because of their dithering and fence sitting over Brexit.

Make no mistake the brexit party is coming for Labour seats at that GE and there is already talk of a phase two Brexit by them. Any Labour MP in a leave constituency, the majority of which were for leave, who votes against this deal tomorrow won't have a leg to stand on campaigning against Farage. Look what the real power and money behind the BXP are saying...

The Brexit party should focus on smashing labour in seats where the conservatives could never win. Get positive , and focus on round two of the battle. This is a long bloody war to fully leave the EU, that will last for a very long time. The public want the first phase done

https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/stat...19412656967680

It's shit or bust for the remainer MP's tomorrow, which option will they choose, softish phase one brexit on Oct 31st or a no deal one soon after. Their only hope to knock out the BXP is to vote for the deal tomorrow, and even that may not be enough.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Only if the referendum actually leads somewhere.

If the referendum says leave with Boris' shitty deal and create a customs border down the Irish sea - go for it.
If the referendum says remain - go for it. My Irish passport is ready regardless

A referendum with defined end points will always lead somewhere.

[Fuiking]

That is so not the case. This is the best compromise from no deal brexiteers you remainers are going to get, vote for the deal on Saturday or get no deal.

Moderates like me have for a short time limit compromised, if extreme remainers choose not to and this deal is voted down it will be full steam ahead for no deal.

Labour and their position is all over the place and in no fit state of opposition to fight a general election which is coming soon. They face electoral annihilation because of their dithering and fence sitting over Brexit.

Make no mistake the brexit party is coming for Labour seats at that GE and there is already talk of a phase two Brexit by them. Any Labour MP in a leave constituency, the majority of which were for leave, who votes against this deal tomorrow won't have a leg to stand on campaigning against Farage. Look what the real power and money behind the BXP are saying...



https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/stat...19412656967680

It's shit or bust for the remainer MP's tomorrow, which option will they choose, softish phase one brexit on Oct 31st or a no deal one soon after. Their only hope to knock out the BXP is to vote for the deal tomorrow, and even that may not be enough.

Moderate? You? Your viewpoints come across as extremely extreme most of the time mr Dribbles.

[Jessicka]

It would mostly be about not interfering with democracy tbh. Juncker would have wanted for this to end within his commission (which itself ends at 31/10/19). To some extent, it will be a failure of his commission to not have resolved this and pass it over to Von Der Leyen; Juncker's commission has been immensely succesful at delivering trade agreements and this would be a black mark, whether it is his fault or not (it really isn't).

Well Merkel says an extension would be unavoidable, and we know she's actually in charge here so that settles that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...box=1571391980

[Slant]

Juncker has nothing to do with granting an extension, and the people who actually do have indicated that an extension for a 3rd referendum/general election would be granted.

Juncker is sitting down with the EU Council and he will have his say. And people will listen to what he has to say, because he is the head of the Commission still. And "the people who actually have to do with an extension" are the heads of the member states. So unless you know personally that every single member state is approving, I call bullshit. Just one veto from any of the 26 would torpedo an extension.

No offense, but it baffles me that people still don't get this...

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Well Merkel says an extension would be unavoidable, and we know she's actually in charge here so that settles that.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...box=1571391980

She's just one head of the member state and has no more actual say than Lithuania, for example. She can express the opinion of the German Government, and what she says has some weight, but she's not speaking for the 26, nor can she force anyone voting one way or the other.

Stop reading the British press and believing what they say. Start cross reading across the continent. The British are notoriously ignorant of anything outside the UK. You will never get a proper picture if you rely on the Guardian, as pro-Remain as that paper is. They're desperately clinging to anything these days just like Brexiteer papers are condemning everything these days...

[mojojojo202]

Moderate? You? Your viewpoints come across as extremely extreme most of the time mr Dribbles.

How have people not caught on to this yet?

Lots of people over the last few years, both left and right, have taken to calling themselves centrists/moderates as a pathetic way to try to legitimise their opinions and dismiss those who disagree them as completely unreasonable wierdos.

It's completely disingenuous and obviously transparent.

[Jessicka]

She's just one head of the member state and has no more actual say than Lithuania, for example. She can express the opinion of the German Government, and what she says has some weight, but she's not speaking for the 26, nor can she force anyone voting one way or the other.

Stop reading the British press and believing what they say. Start cross reading across the continent. The British are notoriously ignorant of anything outside the UK. You will never get a proper picture if you rely on the Guardian, as pro-Remain as that paper is. They're desperately clinging to anything these days just like Brexiteer papers are condemning everything these days...

There's no practical sense that any country wouldn't follow Germany's lead on this. Technically, sure, Lithuania could disagree and veto them, but let's face it, that's just not going to happen.

[Dezerte]

Moderate? You? Your viewpoints come across as extremely extreme most of the time mr Dribbles.

I remember when he talked about UK using military action to get what he wanted.

[lagiacrux]

Twitch Plays Brexit?

well played good sir, well played

[Mayhem]

A referendum will always lead somewhere.

Ahm, 3 years now to nothing thanks to a referendum.

[Slant]

There's no practical sense that any country wouldn't follow Germany's lead on this. Technically, sure, Lithuania could disagree and veto them, but let's face it, that's just not going to happen.

There is no practical sense that they wouldn't do it if it suited them better. The reason for the veto is not to force people into unanimous votes, the reason a veto exists is so small states won't be ignored. It's not a technicality, it is what we call democratic principles. You're hoping... which is fine in itself, but HOPE is all you got right now.

It might work out the way you hope it will. It might not. Certainly Merkel isn't "making them approve". That's not how Germany sees itself, it's not how Merkel conducted Germany's foreign policy. Germany is very much keen on broad consensus as the basis for these decisions.

And most importantly, Germany will not put itself into a controversial position where we can be blamed for another fuckup. Haven't you noticed that throughout this thing Germany was always the moderate voice next to France being the spearhead?

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Why on earth do you believe that? Why are you not paying attention? Did the other countries follow Merkel's lead when it came to immigration? How tortured were the negotiations when it came to saving Greece and how much capital and goodwill did Merkel need to expend to convince countries like Finland? The level of protection that the EU gives to small units is so insane that there are countries were it's not just the government that gets a veto, but each individual autonomous state that is smaller in population than most minor metropolitan centers gets to have a veto too.
The EU is about broad compromise and if anything Germany does most of the compromise, not most of the deciding.

Thank you for appreciating that Germany was the moderate in that debate. We took the brunt of hate, but it's good to see that some people saw what was going on.

[Jessicka]

And most importantly, Germany will not put itself into a controversial position where we can be blamed for another fuckup. Haven't you noticed that throughout this thing Germany was always the moderate voice next to France being the spearhead?

I have, which is why I see it for what it is, the pragmatic voice, the calmer head that usually prevails while Macron and others have been more vocal in expressing their frustrations.