Once again Europe does not support the will of the people

[Rozz]

Reel it in. Do not make discussion person and refrain from insults.

[Geckoo]

Sadly I have to assume that there is a not so small segment of the population, just like there is in Greece, that between friends or in private and in front of their children occasionally go "well the dictatorship was not so bad" with maybe a smaller number going to greater extent (I mean I know people who had pictures of Papadopoulos (the leader of the Greek dictatorship between 1967-74) on that corner of the house together with Christ and their favourite saints).
And those children, they learned from their parents like everyone does.

Honestly i think most of the times is just nostalgia for better times rather than nostalgia for a dictatorship. And this is also the case with Catalonia although rather than nostalgia is more of an utopic vision of how things would have been if 80 years ago things had gone in a different way. It just happens that both Greece and Spain had a dictatorship going on during that sweet spot in recent history that made the world push forward after the convulsed first half ot the 20th century.

Think about it. We've been through a very severe and devastating financial crisis, we are at the doorstep of another financial crisis. As part of a bigger community (EU), our individual countries have lost autonomy and we have even given up on our culture because like ir ot not, the european culture is very tied to religion and we are less religious than ever. As citizens we are poorer than our parents and grandparents despite the fact that we are, generally speaking, more prepared than ever and have more freedom than ever.

So the idea that back then they lived better is not that far-fetched because it's probably true for them, they had a different set of problems, but life was more affordable and forming a family was more affordable. Different times with different values and different issues.

And i'm not saying that Franco (or Papadopoulos) supporters don't exist right now, but it would be good, even wise, to do the exercise of not mixing that nostalgia for better times i talked about with a straight up support for a return to an authoritarian regime or praise for the dictator himself.

[PrimiOne]

I'm a standard spanish citizen worried about our future which is being stolen by greedy terrorist catalan bastards.

Obviously I'm speaking for most of Spain, you can check the media in Spain. Even the left wing media bashes catalans continually because it unites the country against a common enemy. All of the politicians of the major parties have at least insinuated or directly asked to put in jail all their actual leaders (politicians and civilians) to make a second example. Then take control of Cataluña via the constitution (the so called 155 article) to finally this time delete the catalan school, their public catalan television (their only main media in their disgusting language), their catalan cultural institutions like their languages academy, and destroy what we have left of their petty autonomous government forever like their traitors police and their too expensive healthcare system.

Then, if they continue fighting who knows what could happen, hopefully you understand me

VOX, Fuerza Nueva, La Fundación Francisco Franco. All of them are LEGAL parties and associations who join MILLIONS of people in Spain. Then we have Ciudadanos and the Popular Party which are not far from us. If we sumate all of them we are MAJORITY. And if you don't belive me, wait for the 10tn of november.

We dont have any totalitarism rethoric, all we do, we do from democracy and law. Is that true that this democracy and law is inherited from a glorious dictator? Maybe. But noone in Spain or the international comunity is doing nothing to stop it. Meaning that this is GOOD.

And I don't care if we fuel independentism, because nothing is more enjoyable than the pleasure of bashing this catalan sons of a bitch to the ground. And like me, MILLIONS in Spain we think the same, although you might not like it.

You are 8% thats what you are.

That's the people who support your "I would really like a good old times Civil War" (wich btw is incredibly absurd given that there's no Catalonian army)

That's the people who (like you) would be pleased to use a military force to "end the problem directly".

It should be 0% but I can work with 8% given than the other 92% still keeps his brain functional and ,truth to be told, is not a bad figure if we look around in the neighbor countries.

Now be aware that right now the international community looks at the problem as "Some rich region trying to not share its wealth" and your stupid option would drastically change that perspective.

At this point I don't even know if you are a russian troll, a hidden independentist trolling or just plain nazi but we do your option....and Catalonia is independent in less that 2-3 years.

And I don't care if we fuel independentism, because nothing is more enjoyable than the pleasure of bashing this catalan sons of a bitch to the ground. And like me, MILLIONS in Spain we think the same, although you might not like it.

When people don't think what they say they end up saying what they really think.

I know the far-right lives on conflict. The bigger the chaos, the most fucked up the situation is,more people would be tempted to use the nuclear option.

You are basically the same as they ( the independenstist) trying to breed hate and discord to achieve your agenda but as opposed to you I really want to end this shitshow instead of taking advantage of it.

You don't care if your attitude makes the situation worse...I knew m8. I know who you are and how you work.

-snip-

[treclolx]

I'm a standard spanish citizen worried about our future which is being stolen by greedy terrorist catalan bastards.

Obviously I'm speaking for most of Spain, you can check the media in Spain. Even the left wing media bashes catalans continually because it unites the country against a common enemy. All of the politicians of the major parties have at least insinuated or directly asked to put in jail all their actual leaders (politicians and civilians) to make a second example. Then take control of Cataluña via the constitution (the so called 155 article) to finally this time delete the catalan school, their public catalan television (their only main media in their disgusting language), their catalan cultural institutions like their languages academy, and destroy what we have left of their petty autonomous government forever like their traitors police and their too expensive healthcare system.

Then, if they continue fighting who knows what could happen, hopefully you understand me

VOX, Fuerza Nueva, La Fundación Francisco Franco. All of them are LEGAL parties and associations who join MILLIONS of people in Spain. Then we have Ciudadanos and the Popular Party which are not far from us. If we sumate all of them we are MAJORITY. And if you don't belive me, wait for the 10tn of november.

We dont have any totalitarism rethoric, all we do, we do from democracy and law. Is that true that this democracy and law is inherited from a glorious dictator? Maybe. But noone in Spain or the international comunity is doing nothing to stop it. Meaning that this is GOOD.

And I don't care if we fuel independentism, because nothing is more enjoyable than the pleasure of bashing this catalan sons of a bitch to the ground. And like me, MILLIONS in Spain we think the same, although you might not like it.

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First of all sorry but I cant find the posts in english, they are all from old news.

In 2012 the catalan parties came to the Congreso de los Diputados to ask permision for a referendum. The discusion ended in just one evening, with a major vote against it and some funny jokes about their crazy idea. Basically, the spanish constitution defends the union of Spain. So the spanish parties could not be ok with a referendum, because it is against the law.

In 2017, after the failed atempt of state coup that catalan propaganda called referendum, Puichdemong was ready to throw everything away to just enter a dialog with Rajoy's government. He was about to cancel all their acts and anulate the results of the "referendum" and convoque autonmical legal ellections to start speaking with Madrid. As it should, we refused, and he run away from justice.

Once Sanchez got in the government he started a round of conversations with the catalans. He even tried to have an international personality to help with the negotiations, whatever they were. Luckly for us all, the center and right wing parties we filled with more than a million people the streets of Madrid against it. With the popular presure, Pedro Sanchez retired from the table.

As you see, the punny catalans have tried, and they continue trying even now, when we have their leaders in jail for years. It is our strengh and the bold foundation of our constitution that negates not only the right to make a referendum, but the right to talk about it.

In fact, as of now, our constitutional court forbids the catalan terrorists of talking about the referendum or self determination in THEIR regional parliament. LOL

I don't understand why this person hasn't been banned AND arrested for hate speech yet. This isn't just a case for moderators, it's a case for mental institution and criminal persecution.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

I don't understand why this person hasn't been banned AND arrested for hate speech yet. This isn't just a case for moderators, it's a case for mental institution and criminal persecution.

I have a hard time deciding if that is the case or if its some elaborate trolling. Some of his posts seemed just way over the top to the point I sometimes thought he might have tried to make a case for the Catalans.

Now given my exposure to different points of view :

- a lot of Spanish people are pissed at the Catalan Nationalists, and that is not limited to Castillians but also other Communities (like my Gallician colleague) even encompassing some Communities or even foreign lands where Catalan is the spoken language, where local authorities have in the past voiced their distaste at Catalan expansionism (like in Valencia and Alghero) (See Catalan Countries)

- Catalan Nationalists are essentially a band of dangerous clowns : during the referendum one of its leaders was gloating that per Spanish Nationality laws, citizens of Catalonia would still retain Spanish Nationality and thus EU citizenship... on the other hand Rajoy and the PP made the choice of frontal confrontation, but Sanchez and the PSOE won't give them much leeway after all their circus.

- Catalonia is extremely divided on the issue, in part owing to the fact that a substantial part of its population originates from different parts of Spain (and have their children exposed to some bizarre nationalist discourse in school and the public space). Said population is prominently present in the dense, rich areas surrounding Barcelona, but representation laws make it so that the sparsely populated and staunchly independentist countryside dominates the local parliament and government, and thus is able to push for an independence agenda. Amusingly enough, this situation made the unionist ask for the autonomy of "Tabarnia" against Catalonia, reversing the whole self-determination and tax-drain approach.

- Both sides are trying to paint the opposing side as the devil and themselves as victims, so it will be a long journey before this whole thing gets settled

[PedroloGeo]

You are 8% thats what you are.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/1...d438b467a.html

There you are, the last poll for the election in the 10th of November.
Popular Party (In favor of a permanent 155, the ones who asked for the detention of the catalan leaders in 2017) = 21.2% of the voters.
VOX (In favor of deleting forever the catalan autonomy and take full control from Madrid) = 11.3% of the voters.
Ciudadanos (In favor of a permanent 155 and jailing of actual president Torra) = 9.3% of the voters.
Totals = 41,8%

8% you say? Lies. Mothe that 40% of the people wants to intervene Cataluña and star reducing their autonomy and movement, or even jail all their actual leaders and delete the autonomy directly.

It should be 0% but I can work with 8% given than the other 92% still keeps his brain functional and ,truth to be told, is not a bad figure if we look around in the neighbor countries.

Nice, insults. The way to defend the arguments of the left winged people. No way you get banned.

Now be aware that right now the international community looks at the problem as "Some rich region trying to not share its wealth" and your stupid option would drastically change that perspective.

Opressing the catalans until now has been too easy. In Spain we can do the things hard mode, with the truth in front! We won't hide facts to the international comunity, we will convince them that the facts are right!

a hidden independentist trolling

Oh yes! You got me! Bull pamtumaca i acer castellets. España ems rova. Chupo la tita a Torra. Um que buena. ¡Muert al Burbo!

Keep on ignoring a guy who is spreading "Una,Grande y Libre" everywhere ( what would happen if some other user start posting "Heil Hitler!" in every post?).
Keep on ignoring the nation bashing.
Keep on ignoring the hate.
Keep on ignoring the bolded part.

Infract me again. Good work!!

Una Grande y Libre is not the same as Hail Hitler. The fascists and nazis were defeated and it was proved in an international court all the crimes they did. The falangists in Spain were never defeated, they ruled during 40 years with the connivance of all the nascent democracies in Europe, and even the USA sent humanitarian help to Franco's Spain to have them as allies and not as comunist oponents.

When the falangists stoped ruling on spain no trials were held, no ruler has been demostrated to have comited ANY crime. So Una, Grande y Libre is a perfectly LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC sentence. You don't like the poeple that used it for some years, but it doesn't make it punishable in this forum.

You say nation bashing and hate speech. I say it is the perfectly LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL speech of 3 of the 5 major parties in spain.

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I don't understand why this person hasn't been banned AND arrested for hate speech yet. This isn't just a case for moderators, it's a case for mental institution and criminal persecution.

Because my speech is the speech that have 3 of the major political leaders in Spain. And who do you want to arrest me? The Guardia Civil? There...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJr2Yb2siI8

Guardia Civil being sent to Cataluña singing "¡A por ellos!" which translates to "Go for them!" So yeah, sure, I'm gonna be arrested by them...

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- Catalan Nationalists are essentially a band of dangerous clowns : during the referendum one of its leaders was gloating that per Spanish Nationality laws, citizens of Catalonia would still retain Spanish Nationality and thus EU citizenship... on the other hand Rajoy and the PP made the choice of frontal confrontation, but Sanchez and the PSOE won't give them much leeway after all their circus.

Oh thats funny. It wasn't one catalan politician. It was an Onda Cero journalist. (Onda Cero is in no way related to independentists by the way)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBRSry3uwk

Really, catalan politicians are terrible people. But because of their terrorists acts, sending tumultuous people against the Guardia Civil and making an state coup. And saying things like that they are clowns reduces their terrorist state to simple knownothings, and we can't accept that.

[PrimiOne]

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2019/1...d438b467a.html

There you are, the last poll for the election in the 10th of November.
Popular Party (In favor of a permanent 155, the ones who asked for the detention of the catalan leaders in 2017) = 21.2% of the voters.
VOX (In favor of deleting forever the catalan autonomy and take full control from Madrid) = 11.3% of the voters.
Ciudadanos (In favor of a permanent 155 and jailing of actual president Torra) = 9.3% of the voters.
Totals = 41,8%

8% you say? Lies. Mothe that 40% of the people wants to intervene Cataluña and star reducing their autonomy and movement, or even jail all their actual leaders and delete the autonomy directly.



Nice, insults. The way to defend the arguments of the left winged people. No way you get banned.



Opressing the catalans until now has been too easy. In Spain we can do the things hard mode, with the truth in front! We won't hide facts to the international comunity, we will convince them that the facts are right!



Oh yes! You got me! Bull pamtumaca i acer castellets. España ems rova. Chupo la tita a Torra. Um que buena. ¡Muert al Burbo!



Una Grande y Libre is not the same as Hail Hitler. The fascists and nazis were defeated and it was proved in an international court all the crimes they did. The falangists in Spain were never defeated, they ruled during 40 years with the connivance of all the nascent democracies in Europe, and even the USA sent humanitarian help to Franco's Spain to have them as allies and not as comunist oponents.

When the falangists stoped ruling on spain no trials were held, no ruler has been demostrated to have comited ANY crime. So Una, Grande y Libre is a perfectly LEGAL and DEMOCRATIC sentence. You don't like the poeple that used it for some years, but it doesn't make it punishable in this forum.

You say nation bashing and hate speech. I say it is the perfectly LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONAL speech of 3 of the 5 major parties in spain.

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Because my speech is the speech that have 3 of the major political leaders in Spain. And who do you want to arrest me? The Guardia Civil? There...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJr2Yb2siI8

Guardia Civil being sent to Cataluña singing "¡A por ellos!" which translates to "Go for them!" So yeah, sure, I'm gonna be arrested by them...

- - - Updated - - -



Oh thats funny. It wasn't one catalan politician. It was an Onda Cero journalist. (Onda Cero is in no way related to independentists by the way)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBRSry3uwk

Really, catalan politicians are terrible people. But because of their terrorists acts, sending tumultuous people against the Guardia Civil and making an state coup. And saying things like that they are clowns reduces their terrorist state to simple knownothings, and we can't accept that.

I should know better than waste my time with your kind so just a brief rundown before ignore.

You don't fool anyone pretending to be a right guy.

You are a fascist. That's what you are.

You are one of those guys who bark fascist ideology(have you bashed some of those sons of a bitch already?), who use fascist mottos (you are not the one who make it "grande y libre"), who defend fascism (so you got away from trial is your excuse? lovely) but…is not a fascist at all,right?

Yeah , I know a lot like you.

Reality check incoming: you are a fascist.


So start putting numbers down because your representation right now is 8%(VOX)...not future guesses(polls).Don' try play a conservative because that's not what you are. Don't try to pretend you just want to apply 155 because no fucking one believes you.

And nothing more ...just wanted to wish you that November Election is as much happy for your kind as March was

[Shadowferal]

hmf...you guys already helped France destroy the Cagots...And now you want to destroy the Catalans...It's like every century or so you guys drink the haterade and have to go and show the world just how much bigotry you have.

[Hif]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...164304413.html

I go to the deep field for a few days and all hell breaks loose in Catalonia.

Half a million people marched in protest of the decision to send Catalonia's leaders to jail. A crying shame the EU is silent on a known legal part of international law.

[Hif]

Welcome to MMO-C!



You keep calling UN wishes "international law". How do you substanciate this?
(Not that I generally disapprove of the UN and their goals. But there are very very few actually binding things out there regarding their prefered state of things that make it into actual laws.)

Already did from Cornell, an EU paper from the University of Geneva and from wikipedia. All which you ignored

[PedroloGeo]

I should know better than waste my time with your kind so just a brief rundown before ignore.

You don't fool anyone pretending to be a right guy.

You are a fascist. That's what you are.

You are one of those guys who bark fascist ideology(have you bashed some of those sons of a bitch already?), who use fascist mottos (you are not the one who make it "grande y libre"), who defend fascism (so you got away from trial is your excuse? lovely) but…is not a fascist at all,right?

Yeah , I know a lot like you.

Reality check incoming: you are a fascist.


So start putting numbers down because your representation right now is 8%(VOX)...not future guesses(polls).Don' try play a conservative because that's not what you are. Don't try to pretend you just want to apply 155 because no fucking one believes you.

And nothing more ...just wanted to wish you that November Election is as much happy for your kind as March was

Two things. 1) I’m not fascist, fascists were defeated in 1945 and now they are just sad shadows of their former selfs.

And 2) Bye it was fun to discus with you even when you insulted me!

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hmf...you guys already helped France destroy the Cagots...And now you want to destroy the Catalans...It's like every century or so you guys drink the haterade and have to go and show the world just how much bigotry you have.

Isn’t that lovely when we uphold this historical european traditions?

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Welcome to MMO-C!

Nice to meet you, welcome.

You keep calling UN wishes "international law". How do you substanciate this?
(Not that I generally disapprove of the UN and their goals. But there are very very few actually binding things out there regarding their prefered state of things that make it into actual laws.)

Ohh how nice another catalan basher! Yay! Friends! ¡A por ellos!

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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...164304413.html

I go to the deep field for a few days and all hell breaks loose in Catalonia.

Half a million people marched in protest of the decision to send Catalonia's leaders to jail. A crying shame the EU is silent on a known legal part of international law.

First, aren’t there other media more reliable than Aljezeera? I don’t know, El Mundo, El Pais, La Razon, El ABC, El Periodico, La Gazeta... /sigh

You go to the “deep field” and every night since then catalan terrorists start burning Barcelona. A casual thing?

Half a million he says, lol. I saw the images, only during the peack of the march and in very small areas people was really dense. The most part of the street was mostly empty with some kids walking arround. I could say there are more catalan terrorsts burning the city right now than people on the so called “marches for freedom” that should be called “marches to cut roads and bother citizens that want to go to work”.

[Moldevort]

Catalonia isn't a country but 30 years of well planned brainwashing are pretty effective.

You can keep deluding yourselves but that's reality. Everyone with a little common sense knows it. You can check it on internet easily. And this is not North Korea. All that crap about being oppressed it's simply an insult to those country where they are IN REALITY.

You can keep twisting the history. You can keep messing with education to create obedient zealots. You can keep crying everywhere to get some attention like the spoiled brat the Catalonia government has become.

A government who has been 30 years being used as a trump card by Spanish government for more money. Money spent on more propaganda, even worthless embassies. Embassies with no country. And at the same time you could find hospitals in Catalonia crowded, with their staff demanding resources.

Pretty lame imo.

[PedroloGeo]

I have written a bit in this thread already, you might want to catch up with that before throwing around accusations like these.

Oh no. It wasn’t an acusation. It was cheering! I’m with you. We must go for them! ¡A por ellos!

[Yunru]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...164304413.html

I go to the deep field for a few days and all hell breaks loose in Catalonia.

Half a million people marched in protest of the decision to send Catalonia's leaders to jail. A crying shame the EU is silent on a known legal part of international law.

It is all over news here.

[Slant]

Already did from Cornell, an EU paper from the University of Geneva and from wikipedia. All which you ignored

And you seem to ignore how law works. The EU isn't based on anarchy.

[Tiwack]

The minority will have to get the rest of the area on board first and I can understand that's hard when they can't explain how independence will improve anything the current establishment can't already - other than leaving them to be left sailing their own boat. It's just like Trump and his deepstate, they've been blaming the fed for their own corruption for years comboed with a skewed representation from dirt voting and being pandered to for power at the detriment to the masses in the city that don't understand what's going on or where to even begin tackling this as the mis- and disinformation is rampant enough to cause a sufficient amount of people to live in a parallel-society and draw headlines like this.

[PedroloGeo]

A government who has been 30 years being used as a trump card by Spanish government for more money. Money spent on more propaganda, even worthless embassies. Embassies with no country. And at the same time you could find hospitals in Catalonia crowded, with their staff demanding resources.

I’m with you in almost everything. Bashing catalans is fun and it should become the Spanish national sport. Here for example: “Hit the seditious” could be called this game, when a manifestatiom of catalans comes near your home you throw rocks at them. They only got 1 hit, a pitty.

https://youtu.be/bLKkWuo-UDY

Then you say their hospitals are crowded because they build embasies and don’t have money for medics. Oh no! Their hospitals are crowded because WE destroyed their healthcare system.

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...e-alfonso.html

Here is a conversation between the head of the anti-fraud office and the interior minister of Spain. We used this office to hinder catalans and their independence aspirations. (maybe not very legal, but what is ilegal when Spain is at risk?) This heroes made some nice actions like spread false rumours about catalan politicians, attack the CTT (catalan media center), and most important, act against their healthcare system. Because while people is worried about their health (crowded hospitals, long queues, no specialists) they can’t also think on destroying Spain.

Don’t steal our doings. We spend a lot of resources to stop the catalans, and some victories are ours to claim!

[Infraction]

[Noradin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

yes it is. The UN charter defines it as such.

Irrelevant, the ECHR considers the Europeasn Convention of Human Rights as your own quote in post #6 makes clear.

Learn to read what you quote.