Would it hurt to fix hybrid speccs Mana issues?.

[Unholyground]

I'm sure they could afford to take all their customers to a bar and buy them a beer but they are a business. I dont think you can expect them to spend on development costs for something that's not gonna make them money.

I guess we will have to wait and find out, I am also excited for Dark Rangers in retail. the future of WoW is bright.

[Gorgodeus]

It would be very hard to buff classes like shadow without making them super op, because shadow can still heal. It wouldn't just be a simple buff it would have to be a massive rework.

No it would not. Buff SP mana regen and nerf their healing. Simple. Takes all of a weekend, at most.

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I'm sure they could afford to take all their customers to a bar and buy them a beer but they are a business. I dont think you can expect them to spend on development costs for something that's not gonna make them money.

It is already making them money. It's called a sub.

[ellieg]

No it would not. Buff SP mana regen and nerf their healing. Simple. Takes all of a weekend, at most.

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It is already making them money. It's called a sub.

Ya my point was they have the retail players subbed. They released classic and captured a lot of the players who dont play retqil. I just dont think there is a large enough pool of players not subbed to classic or retail but would sub to classic+, to make it profitable enough to develop.

[Dundebuns]

All I want is for TBC to become part of the release cycle, where you can 'nominate' a level 60 character and 'promote' it to a TBC server (or just start a brand new one on a TBC server)

[Gorgodeus]

Ya my point was they have the retail players subbed. They released classic and captured a lot of the players who dont play retqil. I just dont think there is a large enough pool of players not subbed to classic or retail but would sub to classic+, to make it profitable enough to develop.

There are plenty of Classic subs. Sub counts tripled after Classic released.

[Nozuka]

what do you mean by „hybrid spec“? someone who invests alot of points in more than 1 tree? or classes in general, who are considered to be hybrids?

[ellieg]

There are plenty of Classic subs. Sub counts tripled after Classic released.

Yes I agree. You are misunderstanding me. They are already subbed. Developing classic+ is not gonna add many more subs on top of that.

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what do you mean by „hybrid spec“? someone who invests alot of points in more than 1 tree? or classes in general, who are considered to be hybrids?

The classes with a healing tree are referred to as hybrids. Druid, priest, pally, sham

[Gorgodeus]

what do you mean by „hybrid spec“? someone who invests alot of points in more than 1 tree? or classes in general, who are considered to be hybrids?

All the classes that have a healing spec are considered "hybrids". Blizzard philosophy in Vanilla was hybrids should do less damage than "pure" dps classes. The intent was for hybrids to do around 5-10% less damage, but as usual they screwed that up, with some hybrids doing 30% of the dps of pure classes.

[Argorwal]

This comment should be pinned/stickied.

When do warriors and rogues need to gimp their damage so they can last the whole fight?

[Gorgodeus]

Yes I agree. You are misunderstanding me. They are already subbed. Developing classic+ is not gonna add many more subs on top of that.

I think the idea is that Classic+ might retain more players than Classic alone will.

[Sithalos]

Ah, but you see you can't fix any of classic's problems, because it's "community" will defend every poor design decision to the death.

Sorry.

[Gorgodeus]

This comment should be pinned/stickied.

No, the comment is just dumb. Let us know when melee classes have to start cycling different ranks of their abilities. Either all dps specs should have to downrank, or none.

[Shockzalot]

If they fix mana issues they have to fix numerous things. Druids could use a rez. Pallys could use a taunt. What about worthless talents? Prune those and add something worthwhile? What about worthless items like Cloth with Agi and Str? Leave the game as it is. All these "well can we please fix one little thing it won't hurt" threads need to fucking disappear.

[Gorgodeus]

That doesn’t work. You can’t “buff shadow” you mean buff shadow talents.

Specifically you mean buffing shadow talents that are inaccessible to holy/discipline priests.

“Nerfing healing for shadow” really means nerfing priest base healing, and then buffing holy talents that are inaccessible to shadow priests. And you have to figure out what that means for disc, as a PvP spec that would suddenly find itself nerfed by not having access to the powerful healing talents for holy or the dps talents for shadow. So you have to buff the last few talents in the disc tree as well.

Then you realize that you’ve just massively nerfed priests for leveling because all the best talents are really far down the talent trees to prevent op hybrids, and you have to decide what to do about that.

Starting to see why this isn’t that easy?

It is very easy, and no, it is not as convoluted as you imply. Simply nerf the healing for anyone with the Shadowform talent. Example: Shadowform talent chosen = -50% healing.

[Pigy2]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

It depends entirely how its implemented, the go-to druid healing spec in later gear, Dreamstate specced, utilized the mana regen continued while casting talent in balance to be a never-ending heal machine. These types of unforseen changes to the heal specs by giving the hybrid specs some love could be devastating.
Same thing in PvP, hybrids are already quite strong in PvP, and giving them more mana reg options might make them unstoppable.

There's a load of parameters to keep in mind, I certainly can't think of all of them, when it comes to "fixing" classic.

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With no dual spec? The glory of Classic is that your shadow priest easily can pop out of shadowform and help healing, or heal that 5-man dungeon your guildies desperately need a healer for. Your suggestion removes this option entirely, or foces 100 gold spent just for a dungeon.

Your suggestion is killing the hybrids entirely in vfavour of the "specialization" of retail. No thank you from me.

[Hctaz]

And now you need to buff the output of every boss in order to compensate for that change as well.
Because if healers now suddenly have a lot more output, you need less healers, which means you can invite more dps, which means that bosses die even faster.

Not to mention PvP ramifications.

Not so "EZ" after all, eh?

Literally said "Classic +"
It would change a LOT of things class wise/balance wise, but it wouldn't affect the core gameplay of Classic is the point. That's why Classic + people aren't wanting TBC. We don't want flying or daily quests or arenas or even a brand new continent. We want something in between Classic and TBC.

[AceofH]

It really wasn't lol. Elemental Shaman still had to rotate in other ranks of spells to not go oom, Boomkins also had to do this. The only reason these specs were brought was because of their utility buffs/debuffs, the same reason they're brought now. Classes didn't get more balanced, numerically, until Cataclysm, though in Wrath iterations were better in the mana sense.

yes elemental and boomkin were still in a sore spot, but enhancement, retribution (horde), feral, and shadow all got better. as did warlocks and hunters, who traditionally did poorly in vanilla compared to mages, rogues, and warriors.

[Hctaz]

Ya we should add dual spec too cause I hate being locked to only 1 spec. Flight paths should be faster. Actually let's just give out flying mounts. Every class should do within 1% dmg of eachother in all situations because raids are the only thing that matters. Give druids a rez. Get rid of reagents. Get rid of hunter deadzone and the need for arrows.

The problem with #Somechanges is that everyone has different ideas on what would be acceptable. #Somechanges is actually just #Mychanges. At least with #Nochanges people know what they're gonna get.

The moment you start with classic+, ppl are going to have to ask for classic all over again because after ~15 years of finally getting it back, it was changed again and no longer available.

That whole slippery slope shit is nonsense. It's easy to discern the difference between Classic + and accidentally making something that isn't classic. Class balance is one small aspect of the game, and it really isn't what made Classic amazing. You listed off a bunch of things that you think would make Classic not Classic. I agree. I think that dual spec, faster flight paths, flying mounts, raids being the only thing that matters, etc. are all things that shouldn't be in Classic + because that's not what Classic was about.

It's not like balance changes are asking every class to be within 1% of each other for all scenarios. It could just be a little better. I'm a warrior. I'm basically god tier at tanking and dpsing. I can pop a shield on and tank for a bit if the tank dies. I'm MOSTLY useful, but even I need to move when Garr starts farting or for the Arcane Explosion boss. It's not like we're asking DPS specs to be all great, we just want them to all be VIABLE. Like... if a boomkin goes OOM after 30 seconds no matter WHAT the situation is AND THEY DONT EVEN DO THE BEST DMG EVEN WHEN THEY ARENT OOM, then they're just always useless.

[AceofH]

it would be nice, Spec and class balancing overall for Classic would be sweet. But you can't have any quality of life changes in Classic, due to the incoming deafness from the screeching #nochange crowd.

what is the goal of classic? to be an authentic recreation of vanilla wow. that is it. so yeah, no changers have a point. by the way. class and spec balancing is not quality of life changes.

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It would be great and is something I've been a proponent for since classic was announced. However, the #nochanges crowd will of course REEEEEEE and throw fits because hybrid classes becoming viable threatens their FOTM class choices.

they already are viable. they aren't optimal.

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I dunno, I Shaman Tank better than most warriors I have seen, old Meta doesn't mean shit because most of the data was pulled for poorly tuned pservers. when Vanilla was retail 95%+ of the wow players had no idea how to properly itemize anything.

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This is why things should be voted on who have level 60's already. They should do a survey and they can find out what people would be ok with after Naxx has been played out.

or you know, they can release separate servers where you can all vote on that.

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Make them PvE only changes as passives (in PvE). Blizzard does this all the time now as they have the technology. We're playing a game from 2004 but on 2019 tech.

They kept the debuff slots intentionally restricted to give the community that same feel. If a large part of the community would like some brush ups to PvE content (not at the expense of PvP) then perhaps there's a chance Blizzard will listen.

But saying "oh if they do this it'll affect PvP" is a non-argument because they have the tech to separate PvE and PvP balancing if they decided to even balance in the first place.

so now were fundamentally changing how the game is played even further. no thanks. you have retail for that type of garbage.

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I distinctly remember a lot of talk about homogenization around the time of Wrath, and I agree that classes need to stand apart. But if you have a dps spec, it should be at least somewhat competitive in a theoretical Classic+, at least in my mind.

we had that in bc, for the most part. that was the sweet spot between vanilla with separate tookits and wrath and the start of homogenization.

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That whole slippery slope shit is nonsense. It's easy to discern the difference between Classic + and accidentally making something that isn't classic. Class balance is one small aspect of the game, and it really isn't what made Classic amazing. You listed off a bunch of things that you think would make Classic not Classic. I agree. I think that dual spec, faster flight paths, flying mounts, raids being the only thing that matters, etc. are all things that shouldn't be in Classic + because that's not what Classic was about.

It's not like balance changes are asking every class to be within 1% of each other for all scenarios. It could just be a little better. I'm a warrior. I'm basically god tier at tanking and dpsing. I can pop a shield on and tank for a bit if the tank dies. I'm MOSTLY useful, but even I need to move when Garr starts farting or for the Arcane Explosion boss. It's not like we're asking DPS specs to be all great, we just want them to all be VIABLE. Like... if a boomkin goes OOM after 30 seconds no matter WHAT the situation is AND THEY DONT EVEN DO THE BEST DMG EVEN WHEN THEY ARENT OOM, then they're just always useless.

but see, there is tons of people out there who do want stuff like dual spec and faster flight paths.
balancing if classes stay vanilla design would have to be done very carefully.
because for example - druids dps auras are party wide, not raid wide. so buff them too much, now your raid needs 8 dps druids alone. oh. and horde needs 8 shamans for totems too. so if you're horde, 40% of your raid is strictly shaman and dps druid.

[Devilyaki]

Oh but we sure did. Now that we have it we can also have discussions about it. Pretty neat really

Ya I guess but it seems most just want to change it back to retail anyways.