Would it hurt to fix hybrid speccs Mana issues?.

[Zyky]

yes elemental and boomkin were still in a sore spot, but enhancement, retribution (horde), feral, and shadow all got better. as did warlocks and hunters, who traditionally did poorly in vanilla compared to mages, rogues, and warriors.

No they didn't lol. Shadow Priest was known as and only used as a "mana battery", enhancement was also only used for totems, Ret was trash too with 2 minute seals. None of these specs saw multiple raid spots within the raid, you had 2 at most and it depended entirely on how many of other classes you had.

Also this entire post was regarding HYBRIDS no one is talking about warlocks, hunters, mages, rogues, or warriors.

[Hctaz]

but see, there is tons of people out there who do want stuff like dual spec and faster flight paths.
balancing if classes stay vanilla design would have to be done very carefully.
because for example - druids dps auras are party wide, not raid wide. so buff them too much, now your raid needs 8 dps druids alone. oh. and horde needs 8 shamans for totems too. so if you're horde, 40% of your raid is strictly shaman and dps druid.

That's fine that they want that, but it isn't in the spirit of Classic is the point. And you don't buff the party auras. They're there already but we don't need those to be any stronger. They just need to be able to play the game.

Classes being playable in raids doesn't introduce flying and LFR into the game. You can balance classes to work in the mindset of Classic, you can't add Dual Spec or flying and have those work for Classic. They are two fundamentally different things

[Kralljin]

your getting pvp and pve mixed up dont use a pvp argument to try change something in pve

I never used PvP as an argument outside of "not to mention PvP ramifications", because healers suddenly having a shitload of more output most certainly does affect PvP.

That aside, i've never suggested any "change in pve".

i doubt you have lead many raids in vanilla or classic if you think killing a boss faster makes it easier

Killing Rag before the submerge seems like a wise strategy to me, same goes for bringing Ony into P3 before any Breath.

You skip mechanics, healers don't have to worry about their mana as much, everyone profits from it.
By prolonging a fight, you just create room for more errors.

at the same time you seem to misunderstand how the very basic mechanics of Golemagg work

No, the fight is a tank & spank fight.
You just nuke the boss until he's dead, no dmg stop, that's it.
Outside of keeping the dogs away from Golemagg, one doesn't have to worry about anything, trying to play around the debuff just prolongs the fight for no beneficial reason whatsoever because the healers can't simply generate mana out of thin air, they still have to keep people up.

Also, please start using punctation marks, i have to read over your sentences multiple times in order to actually understand them.

[AceofH]

No they didn't lol. Shadow Priest was known as and only used as a "mana battery", enhancement was also only used for totems, Ret was trash too with 2 minute seals. None of these specs saw multiple raid spots within the raid, you had 2 at most and it depended entirely on how many of other classes you had.

Also this entire post was regarding HYBRIDS no one is talking about warlocks, hunters, mages, rogues, or warriors.

Ahh yes. The good old "hybrid dps need multiple raid slots per spec" if thats the case that completely bones pures all together.

A 25 man raid would have 6 or 7 healers, 2 tanks, and 16 to 17 dps slots.

There is in bc 8 hybrid dps specs (shadow, ret, feral, balance, elemental, enhancement, arms and fury)
There is 12 pure dps specs.

Thats 20 specs for 16 to 17 slots. Why would it be fair for hybrids to have more then 1 slot per spec?
If even half of them did, thats hybrids owning 16 to 17 raid slots for 5 classes and the other 4 classes being relegated to 8 or 9.
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That's fine that they want that, but it isn't in the spirit of Classic is the point. And you don't buff the party auras. They're there already but we don't need those to be any stronger. They just need to be able to play the game.

Classes being playable in raids doesn't introduce flying and LFR into the game. You can balance classes to work in the mindset of Classic, you can't add Dual Spec or flying and have those work for Classic. They are two fundamentally different things

You miss what im saying. If you make hybrids TOO COMPETITIVE, they will wipe out raid slots for others. If druids do close to the same dps as a pure, all of a sudden their aura becomes much stronger as their dps makes them competitive.

Right now its a non issue. Druids just dont do enough dps.

If you buff them too much, the meta swings the other way and you need one druid per group because their dps + aura = more dps then another class.

[ClassicIsTerrible]

I think a class rebalance via Classic+ would be awesome. Shake up the meta.

Man, you Classic fans should just admit that Vanilla wasn't as great as your nostalgic asses remember. It's objectively the worst version of WoW.

[Super Kami Dende]

The moment you start with classic+, ppl are going to have to ask for classic all over again because after ~15 years of finally getting it back, it was changed again and no longer available.

There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

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what is the goal of classic? to be an authentic recreation of vanilla wow. that is it. so yeah, no changers have a point. by the way. class and spec balancing is not quality of life changes.

Considering it already has changes that make it not an entirely authentic recreation makes the nochange crowd inane anyway.

[AceofH]

There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

Weve seen where balance leads. Blizzard said if they were to balance classic, we would get retail balance. No thanks.

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There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

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Considering it already has changes that make it not an entirely authentic recreation makes the nochange crowd inane anyway.

Just because its not 100% doesnt mean you can add more.

[Biomega]

You wanted #nochanges, you get #nochanges. There's a reason they redesigned so much of the game in the expansions - many aspects of Vanilla gameplay sucked. But that's what it was, so that's what you get in Classic.

[Caperfin]

I know you guys talk about this, and theres disagreement on the term "viable", but this is why ppl dont like to bring dps hybrids. While you are cycling different ranks to "fix" the mana problems of your spec, the mage is just spamming max rank frostbolt and doing double your damage.

I am sorry to sound obtuse but... so what? The boss still dies.

P.S. Did you really think I didn't know mages do more damage...

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I spam max rank starfire as Boomkin and went oom only twice for Maj and Rag fights and was saved by CDs / consumables. Innervate is for myself, demonic rune + mana potion + no silly healing out of form = no mana issues. Imp GotW, Moonkin aura, is my utility. Only getting out of chocobo form for critical BR or Tranquil.

haha chocobo form I never heard that one :P

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Ya for mc it's all fine cause fights are short. I'm more referring to why they are "discriminated" against in later raids

Even in Later raids this "discrimination" is not warranted.

[Alexplode]

You think you wanted classic but didn't.

Classic never interested me tbh, i never hopped in to the #nochanges wagon simply because it saddens me that players could not enjoy their favorite class/specc to the fullest. it bothers me that some players had to go trough some bad experiences simply because of their specc not being invited to do content or getting flamed for playing whatever specc they want.

now when i heard about classic i was hoping for a "remastered classic" where devs can implement new graphics, balance changes, extra content, etc... but seeing my Tread it is obvious that we are a divided community and we think differently over how classic should be.

[AceofH]

Classic never interested me tbh, i never hopped in to the #nochanges wagon simply because it saddens me that players could not enjoy their favorite class/specc to the fullest. it bothers me that some players had to go trough some bad experiences simply because of their specc not being invited to do content or getting flamed for playing whatever specc they want.

now when i heard about classic i was hoping for a "remastered classic" where devs can implement new graphics, balance changes, extra content, etc... but seeing my Tread it is obvious that we are a divided community and we think differently over how classic should be.

Tell me. How much dps should a hybrid do compared to a pure? 80% 90%?

[Alexplode]

Tell me. How much dps should a hybrid do compared to a pure? 80% 90%?

My concern was Mana efficiency not raw damage. I understand that this question floating in this post is purely because some think that speccs that are struggling with Mana, with a change like this will over perform pure dps classes which is a valid concern.

With that being said can someone point which specc could potentially be performing too well if that was the case?

[AceofH]

My concern was Mana efficiency not raw damage. I understand that this question floating in this post is purely because some think that speccs that are struggling with Mana, with a change like this will over perform pure dps classes which is a valid concern.

With that being said can someone point which specc could potentially be performing too well if that was the case?

Strictly mana efficiency has issues with making them broken in pvp. Balance and elemental do fine in pvp. Make them more mana efficient and it gets absurd

[Alexplode]

what do you mean by „hybrid spec“? someone who invests alot of points in more than 1 tree? or classes in general, who are considered to be hybrids?

It is implied in the context you know that... I apologize if the Title is misleading.

It is about specs like shadow, elemental, balance, etc...

Edited and no comments...

[Raven]

Short answer, yes it would hurt.

[Fkiolaris]

There is a large difference between adding/removing things and just tuning numbers to have things balanced.

I find most idiots that argue against class balancing are the ones that just chose the "best" dps class and are scared that they'll be outted for being trash if any other class actually competed with them on a level playing field.

Other than calling these people idiots, that's also my take on the topic. Most people who are against the mana changes are rogues/mages/warriors, with a select few going for the "they will be OP in PvP" angle. Either way, I truly believe that if Blizzard goes for Classic+ in terms of content, they are bound to make class changes of one form or another.

[shaunika123]

No but the specs where at least playable. Can't speak for arcane mages in that expansion, they seemed non-existent until Wrath.

arcane was actually pretty good with the t5 set.

but otherwise yeah.

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Other than calling these people idiots, that's also my take on the topic. Most people who are against the mana changes are rogues/mages/warriors, with a select few going for the "they will be OP in PvP" angle. Either way, I truly believe that if Blizzard goes for Classic+ in terms of content, they are bound to make class changes of one form or another.

sure, once classic is for all intents and purposes "over"

the next phase could have changes.
but until then, it would just create an avalanche.

if you balance one class/spec you'll have to keep balancing all of them.

and that's an endless loop, since as you can see even 15 years later the game isnt exactly balanced(just less imbalanced)

[Beuargh]

Fix any "problem" you have with specs and the content will be even easier. It will not be fun for long IMO. Let's not burn players out too fast plz

[TriggeredKid]

no. learn to manage mana

[Ogarash]

Hello, 1st post on a wow forum since I lost posting privileges on AJ during WOTLK lol.

Anyway,

Wouldn't that make your classic experience better?.

Is it going to hurt your nostalgia or gameplay?.

Wouldn't that make raids and other content more fun?

Thoughts?

Yes it would hurt because it's simply, not, meant to be that way. Since the endgame is so much PvE of modern WoW, it's farily easy to bog down into this.
But, the mana issue is for raids ONLY, and really only for raids. You can perfectly well dps as an elemental, enhancement, retribution, moonkin, shadow priest in dungeons. Perfectly well. Most raids even have an enhance shammy, spriest, oomkin for buffing stuff. I don't know about alliance since I don't play it.

And while I understand that people generally see only the hybrid speccs, there are tons of other speccs for "non hybrids" that are not feasable at ALL in a raid environment.

Instances: Most mages play arcane/frost early on and then arcane/fire. One mage is probably deep frost specc to buff the others. This hurts his DPS so he's just utility.
Nobody, nobody, plays full arcane or fire, in a raid environment.
Hunters, I believe, generally play Beast Master and Marksmanship. Survival is a PvP specc and is shit in raids.
Warriors, either tank with fury/prot or prot, or dps with fury. They don't go arms as it's shit in raids.
Rogues, play combat mixed with something other I dunno. Assa/combat maybe, I'm not wholly knowledgable. I just know they don't play Assasination nor Sub in raids. The one instance I remember Hemo specc being a thing ( Sub ) is with those Bop trash maces from Naxx. Combat rules supreme otherwise.
I'm not sure about warlocks but they also have cookie cutter specs while the rest is useless.

So you see, every class has basically one specc that is viable. The only class, well not only obviously you CAN raid with anything up to a point really, but the only class that start to finish fills two roles in a raid environment is the warrior, being THE tank and melee dps.