Let’s move away from forced specs.

[Kralljin]

Chain Heal throughout the whole original game? I may be wrong, but isn't it not available until Level 40?

During the early game, the difference is even smaller.
Because the entire game works off baseline values, all you need to do to work as healer during the early game is having the highest rank of heal spells and equipping Int / Spirit gear.

That aside, i've used raids as example, so that gives a hint i'm talking about endgame content.

[qwerty123456]

So basically the op just wants to go online and cookie cutter the flavor of the month spec someone else worked out so he can appear better than the players who would just use the abilites they think are cool looking and end up having 1/4th the dps of the op?

[Doffen]

That difference was there in the early expansions, where you didn't have an instant or quick cast in the arcane spec, which today you do. And living bomb was a deep fire talent anyway so it's not like you had access to it as arcane anyway.

I would've wanted access to felguard as affliction but guess what?

It's just examples. And you now show how good they did with making specs more complete and more sensable. They might have taken it a bit too far when it comes to class fantasy, and they didn't do enough for gameplay after loss of artifact weapon/traits in BfA, but that they fixed so that each spec have the toolkit instead of borrowing from some other spec is a good thing imo. But again, a tad too far perhaps.

[Celarent]

During the early game, the difference is even smaller.
Because the entire game works off baseline values, all you need to do to work as healer during the early game is having the highest rank of heal spells and equipping Int / Spirit gear.

Which pleases players who want to be shaman and can frustrate players who want to be premier Resto. I wouldn't say that makes Vanilla trees "terrible"; just unsuitable as-is for the current game. At the same time, one has to ask himself how much longer Blizzard can keep up with spec-as-classes with individuality and equity across the board.

[Kralljin]

Which pleases players who want to be shaman and can frustrate players who want to be premier Resto.

No, it frustrates people who want to have an impact in their specialization choice.

And that just doesn't work in a party / raiding enviroment.
This is why Classic Paladin / Druid is such a mess, because it tried to be a "Paladin" rather than a Healer, Tank or Dps.

This entire concept of being a hybrid that does a little bit of everything doesn't fit into this classical RPG schematic, clear cut roles simply perform far better.

It's not like it has any impact on their actual playstyle, they're wearing Resto gear and spam CH, they're doing the same as they would be doing if they were Resto.

[Kaibhan]

It's funny how many people in this thread are like but min/maxing. Like people don't play something other than the most optimal spec for their class already.

Fun should not be nerfed for balance. Classic shows that the idea of class with the ability to specialize is preferred by a not insignificant subset of people. The min/maxers will always min max and this option changes nothing for them.

[shise]

Then you will end up forced to take a build or another, as long as optimization exists (which obviously should), that is not possible. There will always be a talent build that is best.

[Radaney]

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=2v2&faction=

https://www.arenamate.net/?region=&r...r=3v3&faction=

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../23#dataset=95

Looks like an L2P issue.

And stop stacking OP PvE utility

Looks like a reading issue, and the inability to look at the amount of parses per specialisation, and to judge the difference between minimum and maximum dps on warcraftlogs.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

[rrayy]

I don’t care. I don’t care if there will be cookie cutter build. There are always cookie citter build no matter how many abilities or talents you have. Retail got cookie cutter builds and Classic got cookie curter builds. But it’s not about that. It’s about being a Class and not a Spec. A Mage should not lose their fire abilities just because they are spec’ed into frost. We need more Class identity instead of Spec identity. Sure the fire spells would be useless in that scenario but they should still be available no matter what.

No they shouoldn't. You made a choice to play a frost mage. YOu should live with that decision. Choices still need to matter and the "gimmie gimmie gimmie" attitude is one that needs to stop. You made a choice. Live with the consequences. You in no way have to have everything.

[Kralljin]

Fun should not be nerfed for balance. Classic shows that the idea of class with the ability to specialize is preferred by a not insignificant subset of people. The min/maxers will always min max and this option changes nothing for them.

Meanwhile, the most prominent classes on classic are Warrior, Mage and Rogue, while Druids are nearly extinct.

[Sagenod]

The "illusion of choice" has always been the key phrase for the removal of the old talent trees.

I think it would be nice if they had an old style talent tree for each spec, but the options are entirely oriented towards utility and not damage buffs. Then make the current talent rows all about damage.

Too much work though, I'm sure.

[TheRevenantHero]

People talk about class identity when talking about the Classic skill trees but there really was no class identity. Having specs ACTUALLY gives the class identity. With the old talent trees all mages are the same. Just because you took a couple different talents doesn't mean you have identity. You're still just a mage like every other mage out there. Whereas in Modern WoW, a fire mage and a frost feel different. You actually have an identity.

Also, with the old talent trees, sure you could take whatever you wanted. But unless you took the cookie cutter build for your class, you were absolutely worthless. Nobody would take you to their raids. You would be awful in PvP. Dungeons and world content didn't really matter because you can mindlessly do all of them. So people who say classes had more identity in Vanilla or Classic are fucking liars. Everyone takes the same talents if they're a warrior tank or a mage or what have you. If you didn't then you were worthless.

[Segus1992]

And stop stacking OP PvE utility

Looks like a reading issue, and the inability to look at the amount of parses per specialisation, and to judge the difference between minimum and maximum dps on warcraftlogs.

https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...d/leaderboards

You've got three forms of high end endgame, DK is better at 2/3, you choose to complain about the third. If not an L2P issue, maybe you're just being a baby.

[Tumile]

Balancing basically. If you merge the specs you basically again have only one spec you HAVE to play because it is going to be so much better.

Right now the specs are at least so close to each other, that most poeple don't care what you play unless you pug high level keys.

Retail is not classic. Don't bring too much classic in retail. If you like the specs in classic where basically 2/3 of specs were useless... go play classic. But please don't change retail to something wow was 15! years ago. That is not compatible anymore

a destruction warlock having access to trash abilities will not impede your fragile sense of the current game buddy. we had it back in the day and it worked just fine, you had COrruption, you had Seed of Corruption etc, they were generally useless abilities tho, but they could be used in certain Nieche situations, such as setting up burst on a target in PVP, why not through up a Seed before u chaos bolt ur seduced/feared target? it doesnt do much extra damage, but everything counts. this obviously is only viable if you have all enemies currently CC'd, as well as you trading recovery time for a tiny amount of more dmg on ur burst. it created depth in the gameplay, and rewarded skill.

No need to dumb down the classes just because you aren't able to keep up, that isn't our problem, it could quite literally change nothing for you as an individual, but may give that guy who is 100x better than you 1% more dmg in certain situations, it isn't much to ask, so why are you so against it?

[Shakana]

What if blizz remove the talent trees and and the only customization option the player have is to choose their spec?

By removing the talent tree, it dosent mean they're removing the abilities, you will just get them autmaticly without having to decide wich one.

Yep, more like giving a talent tree of your choice without being specific or having points to choose. Just ranks of a spell that would unlock other rank of another. You know, for example arena fights, the board of wins:



You have all this spells, but depending on your preference through the course of leveling, it evolves to a spec that will be unlocked at the last level. A mage for example: Frost, fire or arcane. And you could have some quests attached to it, to train spells, and an academy of learning them and fight against others, making you stronger and having a certain xp after you finish a train daily. Once you get it right you won't be able to change unless you go to a trainer and say you want to spec into something else and need training for it daily to have spec changed. Not being there to change when you want to.

Example starter mage:
Frost bolt - trained spell
Fire bolt - trained

Learning them both would give you a Frostfire Bolt = learnt spell for training both of them and mastering both of the bolts.
In the end you could be a frost mage with a frostfire bolt. And a fire mage with frostfire bolt too. With more fire spells, and a frost with more frost spells, cause you loved to use them.

Then arcane would be more the basic spells that are powerful, and need to learn before casting frost and fire, because to cast fire and frost you need arcane as source. Arcane is the source of mages magic. Fire and frost are a subcategory of arcane.

And if you as a mage, prefer arcane and not evolve to frost or fire as arcane's subcategories, then you learn arcane magic to it's fullest potential and be an arcane mage only.

[VinceVega]

a destruction warlock having access to trash abilities will not impede your fragile sense of the current game buddy. we had it back in the day and it worked just fine, you had COrruption, you had Seed of Corruption etc, they were generally useless abilities tho, but they could be used in certain Nieche situations, such as setting up burst on a target in PVP, why not through up a Seed before u chaos bolt ur seduced/feared target? it doesnt do much extra damage, but everything counts. this obviously is only viable if you have all enemies currently CC'd, as well as you trading recovery time for a tiny amount of more dmg on ur burst. it created depth in the gameplay, and rewarded skill.

No need to dumb down the classes just because you aren't able to keep up, that isn't our problem, it could quite literally change nothing for you as an individual, but may give that guy who is 100x better than you 1% more dmg in certain situations, it isn't much to ask, so why are you so against it?

Sure. I am bad you are good. You won the argument. *eyeroll* cya

[Tumile]

Sure. I am bad you are good. You won the argument. *eyeroll* cya

Legit no one cares if you're bad or good, you completely missed the argument if that is what you got out of it, I could not care if ur some mouth breathing window licker who clicks, or a 3k rated Arena player from Method with multiple MDI championships under your belt. the point is that it should in no way negatively impact the mouth breather, and benefit the method player, so why are you so against it?

[Cuddleheart]

I don’t really care about shitty people in LFR to be honest. That might sound harsh but this is of course also a selfish request that would make the game better in my opinion.

Ya, except if they added the old spec system and you didn't use an optimal spec, you WOULD be the shitty people in LFR to be honest.

[Kaver]

Ya, except if they added the old spec system and you didn't use an optimal spec, you WOULD be the shitty people in LFR to be honest.

There will ALWAYS be an optimal spec no matter what. I just don’t like the restrictions that Blizzard put on specs. I feel it is unnecessary for them to baby us. Also I currently don’t like how e.g an Outlaw Rogue and an Assassination Rogue feel like two seperate classes. In my opinion Blizzard need to focus more on Class identity and less on Spec identity.