Why I look forward to Calia's rule (if blizzard does anything with this)

[stomination]

Your point was that all undead just blindly followed Sylvanas. I gave you 3 examples of undead not blindly following her due to their own motivations. You're just moving the goalposts now.

I was actually referring to the conversation between an Orgrimmar Grunt and Forsaken refugee from 8.2.5.

Orgrimmar Grunt: You must be saddened to see Sylvanas leave.

Forsaken Refugee: Why? Because I'm Forsaken? Did you shed tears for Garrosh because you're an orc?

Orgrimmar Grunt: No... I shed tears because he brought shame to us all.

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/news=295290/...loyalists-bain

There have been different undead over the years. I think you're vying change for the sake of change which is fair enough since the undead have always had Sylvanas, but to be replaced by Calia who is as one-dimensional as it gets? She still needs development.

NO my Orgrimmar Grunt Blizz writers brought shame to all of you.

[Shiza]

Unity Mode is coming.

Together with classic skill trees?

[GreenJesus]

When they've been the whipping boy for fifteen years, the undead can scream just as loud.

Yeh even as a horde fan its impossible to deny that the night elves are the worst treated race since vanilla compared to their WC3 power.

[Merin]

The character is not anywhere near interesting enough to make this work. This is doubly true with the limited art assets, development time and seemingly low development inspiration of the game as is.

This is an old game on a rocky path with a third string set of developers. Why they are choosing now to try and make these half baked changes is beyond me.

[matrix123mko]

When they've been the whipping boy for fifteen years, the undead can scream just as loud.

So we are here.

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Yeh even as a horde fan its impossible to deny that the night elves are the worst treated race since vanilla compared to their WC3 power.

No. Their WC3 power wasn't as big as they want. They want Knaak power levels.

[Rojakka]

Anybody who remotely knows Trassk and his reputation should see through all this bullshit for what this post blatantly is - thinly-veiled window dressing to unleash his never ending hate-boner for Sylvanas. Nevermind all the 'justifications' he's given to try and dress it up as a "constructive" argument, we all know it's just another pathetic excuse to passively aggressively rage at all the Sylvanas fans on here shitting over Calia because she is, by definition, narrative cancer with zero justification. He doesn't care about the logical reasons why Calia is irrelevant, he doesn't care that she's been shoehorned into the story by hacks that he personally worships, he doesn't even try to hide that he knows fuck all about Sylvanas's motivations and hasn't read a single book on her character - is just an elaborate way of saying "Hahaha fuck you Forsaken fanboys" without getting Banned for the millionth time cos he can't keep his hate-boner in his pants. Life must be truly empty and meaningless for somebody like Trassk, that he just can't accept people have different views to him and leave it alone. 20,000+ posts of nothing but negativity, kinda tells you everything you need to know about this thirsty troll.

[Infraction]

[tromage2]

Wonder on what way Calia is going to get her ppl fresh bodyparts that they need.
If she will not get human and Night elves bodyparts for her ppl then all Forsaken will rot away in a few short years....

[Unholyground]

Together with classic skill trees?

Everything is pointing to the factions becoming much closer.

Side note, I bet you the expansion is called Shadow of Death.

[Lolites]

"hey, remember the guy bcs of who we are all undead? well, his sister, who have NOTHING in common with us, who wasnt there for us in years (perhaps decades), who allied herself with people who want to exterminate us and who have zero experience in leadership, she would surely be AMAZING leader to us"

[thegoodbroham]

The problem is that as the various races change, they end up losing their identity and are all basically reskins of the same personality, which is the very reason the faction war has been stupid for years. I would rather stay stagnant and cool than become another reskinned human, if those are the only options available. Undead should be borderline evil by default anyway if you ask me cause who the hell wants nice zombies?

If this were a new game or story being written fresh, sure, valid criticism. Except that warcraft 3 came out in 2002 and I'm going to just guess you haven't played it. I would much rather The Forsaken regain the sympathetic vibe to their story rather than be turned into a generic zombie faction. I'm sure you've heard criticisms of blizzard's storytelling before, that characters get 180 degree flips and they go against their own writing, people acting uncharacteristically after a while...

.. Weeellll, that's what you're asking for. Because of generic zombie craze and things like the walking dead, the average John Smith online wants the undead to be borderline evil, wiping away any and all setup up until now. The fact others echo your sentiments is sad. They're usually the same people who would complain about cross faction "OMG NO MORE WAR IN WARCRAFT", yet you're totally fine with making the Forsaken a generic evil zombie faction and re-branding as much of the rest of the game to suit how you feel the cover of the book must look, without ever having opened the pages.

[Shiza]

Everything is pointing to the factions becoming much closer.

Side note, I bet you the expansion is called Shadow of Death.

First, for the time but Blizzard will never shut up the possibility to creat another faction war, so the divide will remain. It was all always a core feature of the game.
Second, if you are ganked by players 5 levels beyond you wearing white equip you don't deserve the 10% experience
Third, I actually prefer single word expansion titles to whatever of whatever, which always sounds generic. I think Cataclysm and Legion were so far my favorite titles. I also like the way FF14 is naming their expansions, Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers, these are actually pleasing names.

[Super Dickmann]

.. Weeellll, that's what you're asking for. Because of generic zombie craze and things like the walking dead, the average John Smith online wants the undead to be borderline evil, wiping away any and all setup up until now. The fact others echo your sentiments is sad. They're usually the same people who would complain about cross faction "OMG NO MORE WAR IN WARCRAFT", yet you're totally fine with making the Forsaken a generic evil zombie faction and re-branding as much of the rest of the game to suit how you feel the cover of the book must look, without ever having opened the pages.

The Forsaken were evil from the very beginning. They were called "cruel and vicious" in their intro, and the official site described them as harbingers of doom. The game that introduced them, WC3 made it their mission statement to slaughter anyone in their way. The Forsaken were the objects of ostracism, sure, but it was a self-reinforcing circle since undeath fucks with the moral compass and the soul. The Forsaken have advanced in a consistent direction until a crappy tie-in book a year ago. It's being turned into sad misunderstood humans who just need a hug and can't tie their shoelaces without a character who's just returned from 15 years in the wilderness and has jack in common with them except the origin that's the out of place addition, not them being evil zombies.

[Unholyground]

First, for the time but Blizzard will never shut up the possibility to creat another faction war, so the divide will remain. It was all always a core feature of the game.
Second, if you are ganked by players 5 levels beyond you wearing white equip you don't deserve the 10% experience
Third, I actually prefer single word expansion titles to whatever of whatever, which always sounds generic. I think Cataclysm and Legion were so far my favorite titles. I also like the way FF14 is naming their expansions, Heavensward, Stormblood, Shadowbringers, these are actually pleasing names.

Doesn't change the fact that we are going to be able to group together with the counterpart to War Mode. Which like I said effects you in no way since you won't partake in it anyways right? Right.

[Shiza]

If this were a new game or story being written fresh, sure, valid criticism. Except that warcraft 3 came out in 2002 and I'm going to just guess you haven't played it. I would much rather The Forsaken regain the sympathetic vibe to their story rather than be turned into a generic zombie faction. I'm sure you've heard criticisms of blizzard's storytelling before, that characters get 180 degree flips and they go against their own writing, people acting uncharacteristically after a while...

.. Weeellll, that's what you're asking for. Because of generic zombie craze and things like the walking dead, the average John Smith online wants the undead to be borderline evil, wiping away any and all setup up until now. The fact others echo your sentiments is sad. They're usually the same people who would complain about cross faction "OMG NO MORE WAR IN WARCRAFT", yet you're totally fine with making the Forsaken a generic evil zombie faction and re-branding as much of the rest of the game to suit how you feel the cover of the book must look, without ever having opened the pages.

Only that the Forsaken always had a Villain vibe, so guess who never played the story. Sylvanas was already presented as a Villain-Protagonist in WC3 TFT. The Nathrezim compared Sylvanas nature with their own, all of her action were rather cruel, ruthless and traitorous. In WoW, the Forsaken became more sympathetic as a part of the Horde and with a more humanoid look (in TFT they were presented as regular scourge units). They still had a dark and rather villainous vibe to them. They had questionable schemes going on, were already deep into producing what would become the plague and generally acted cruel and dishonorably. They worked as a morally grey faction, because they dedicated everything to get vengeance on the Lichking and due to the Scarlet Crusade being the core threat of their starting zone. The Crusaders balanced things out, as they were even more cruel and villainous than the Forsaken despite representing the light and human Lordaeron, which gave justification to the Forsakens mistrust and hatred of the livings. They were sympathetic as villain-protagonists, because the traditional heroes were actually more evil than them.

Their sympathetic vibe always was, that they were kinda evil but fought opponents who are actually more evil than them. People liked them, because they were more focussed on dark themes and had a darker and more gothic-inspired visual theme. Calia not only breaks the tone of the Forsaken, the sympathetic villains, but also the visual style. She is fully Alliance themed, with her look failing to indicate undead and more looking like a Lightforged Human and her outfit combining a generally alliance human design with the bright alliance army of light color scheme. She fully breaks with everything that defines the Forsaken, thematically and visually, and yet is put into a position where she represents the whole race. This is bad. I mean, imagine if suddenly an Orc would become king of Stormwind. Or a Gnome High Priest of Elune.

The problem is also, that Calia is a full light character. This is also a nitpick on the attempts of making light and void both morally grey. You can't do that if you have no representation of the void being a good force and the light being a bad force. Which we barely have. What we have is Void elves, who are on the Alliance, and the Lightbound, who only appereared in a short alternative universe quest.

The Forsaken were always closer home to the void in terms of their priest class. Their priests are called dark clerics and it fits their visual theme perfectly. With the void elves serving as a strong representation of the void in the Alliance, it would have made sense to return to a focus towards the forgotten Shadow in the Forsaken, to recreat a representation of the shadow inside the Horde. After all, originally the Alliance in terms was always the light-themed faction and the Horde the shadow-themed, if you look at classic racials. But yeah, instead of doing something like this and making Calia a Shadow Priest who learned the ways of the forgotten Shadow, which would have put her culturally closer to the Forsaken, she remains a pure alliance style Light Priest. With this, the Horde is actually stronger light-themed than the Alliance.

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Doesn't change the fact that we are going to be able to group together with the counterpart to War Mode. Which like I said effects you in no way since you won't partake in it anyways right? Right.

We are probably not.

[Unholyground]

Only that the Forsaken always had a Villain vibe, so guess who never played the story. Sylvanas was already presented as a Villain-Protagonist in WC3 TFT. The Nathrezim compared Sylvanas nature with their own, all of her action were rather cruel, ruthless and traitorous. In WoW, the Forsaken became more sympathetic as a part of the Horde and with a more humanoid look (in TFT they were presented as regular scourge units). They still had a dark and rather villainous vibe to them. They had questionable schemes going on, were already deep into producing what would become the plague and generally acted cruel and dishonorably. They worked as a morally grey faction, because they dedicated everything to get vengeance on the Lichking and due to the Scarlet Crusade being the core threat of their starting zone. The Crusaders balanced things out, as they were even more cruel and villainous than the Forsaken despite representing the light and human Lordaeron, which gave justification to the Forsakens mistrust and hatred of the livings. They were sympathetic as villain-protagonists, because the traditional heroes were actually more evil than them.

Their sympathetic vibe always was, that they were kinda evil but fought opponents who are actually more evil than them. People liked them, because they were more focussed on dark themes and had a darker and more gothic-inspired visual theme. Calia not only breaks the tone of the Forsaken, the sympathetic villains, but also the visual style. She is fully Alliance themed, with her look failing to indicate undead and more looking like a Lightforged Human and her outfit combining a generally alliance human design with the bright alliance army of light color scheme. She fully breaks with everything that defines the Forsaken, thematically and visually, and yet is put into a position where she represents the whole race. This is bad. I mean, imagine if suddenly an Orc would become king of Stormwind. Or a Gnome High Priest of Elune.

The problem is also, that Calia is a full light character. This is also a nitpick on the attempts of making light and void both morally grey. You can't do that if you have no representation of the void being a good force and the light being a bad force. Which we barely have. What we have is Void elves, who are on the Alliance, and the Lightbound, who only appereared in a short alternative universe quest.

The Forsaken were always closer home to the void in terms of their priest class. Their priests are called dark clerics and it fits their visual theme perfectly. With the void elves serving as a strong representation of the void in the Alliance, it would have made sense to return to a focus towards the forgotten Shadow in the Forsaken, to recreat a representation of the shadow inside the Horde. After all, originally the Alliance in terms was always the light-themed faction and the Horde the shadow-themed, if you look at classic racials. But yeah, instead of doing something like this and making Calia a Shadow Priest who learned the ways of the forgotten Shadow, which would have put her culturally closer to the Forsaken, she remains a pure alliance style Light Priest. With this, the Horde is actually stronger light-themed than the Alliance.

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We are probably not.

We definitely are.

[Florena]

I do hope we get some other forsaken perspectives. For me, the forsaken lost a lot of what made them interesting in vanilla when they became conquerors using necromancy and blight to spread their territory. I like the forsaken more as underdogs, shunned by human society but remembering living in it. It's also a bit weird that a race known for having strong wills largely followed a cult of personality around Sylvanas. You never really got much of other perspectives pre BFA. Voss was never 'Forsaken' pre BFA, undead yes but she ran off on her own. The desolate council from the novel had potential but were all killed off in the novel that introduced them. Putress rebelled but was then swiftly killed.

Andorhol for me in Cata was a huge missed opportunity. Making it yet another undead vs living battleground when having living humans and forsaken living next door in an uneasy peace could have been a far more unique and interesting story than the battle we got in the end.

I don't want the current forsaken angle to go away entirely, there are people that enjoy it and it should remain a part of their identity, but I would like to see more from them too.

[Shiza]

We definitely are.

I think a guy who is not even able to cut a post to just the one small sentence he actually is answering to doesn't possesses the capacities to guess the future features of a MMO

[Alixie]

What actually interests me about this, isn't Calia herself to much, but the possibility of what she could do for and with the forsaken.

The best path forward out of this stupid story line, is if Calia builds off the Reunion event, and creates a home base where her undead and the living (Alliance) mingle and live together, rather than simply joining the Horde. Sort of like a new coalition/guild hall, or if its a new city, is neutral like Dalaran. Calia and Derrek are on good terms with Jaina and Anduin, and there's probably plenty of living Lordaeron humans who might want to rebuild a new home with the true heir to Lordaeron.

Undead Night Elves should embrace their nationalist roots and vow to use the gift of undeath as an opportunity to defend the Kaldorei again. BUT this is too much to ask for, so the next best thing is that they build a neutral base who want to focus on protecting their new race while offering help to the Horde/Alliance. If Bolvar ends up going evil Lich King, they could be uncorrupted version of the Ebon Blade.

Another option is that they recover Undercity, Calia takes the throne, and that becomes a neutral hub for both fractions. Not a Horde city because there's no way to recover Teldrassil, and Darkshore are blight covered crumbled ruins.

[Dinduffen]

Funny how only forsaken need to be cleansed of this "stagnation"

[Evilfish]

Funny how only forsaken need to be cleansed of this "stagnation"

Funnier how it's mostly Alliance who think we need this cleansing.