Would it hurt to fix hybrid speccs Mana issues?.

[Coldfrostzero]

It’s not the same people. The ones who have been fighting for Classic for 15 years are not the ones who are crying for changes. The people who want changes are modern retail players who are trying classic and are unhappy they cant play their favorite specs.

This is false. I wanted Classic servers, but also understand the playerbase will consume content so fast the game will be over only a few months after phase 6 releases without some sort of development. Most of the people I talk to who joined the game after quitting for years have stated they want development and some balance brought to the game.

It's possible to "have your cake and eat it too" with Classic+ servers. Keep the purists in their own corner and let those of us who are okay with some modernization to Vanilla to happen.

[Itori]

Hybrids have their place, if you change it or ask for balancing then youre asking them to shit on the reason they gave us classic, and if they bring TBC then theyll also have to balance the new changes from classic around the changes tbc brings which would be a nightmare.

[legendaryusername]

Mage have mana issues too, i go OOM super fast. Fix plix! (No dont fix it, i like how the game is now)

If u think a mage ooms fast then please go ahead and try to play a oomkin

[Kaver]

This is false. I wanted Classic servers, but also understand the playerbase will consume content so fast the game will be over only a few months after phase 6 releases without some sort of development. Most of the people I talk to who joined the game after quitting for years have stated they want development and some balance brought to the game.

It's possible to "have your cake and eat it too" with Classic+ servers. Keep the purists in their own corner and let those of us who are okay with some modernization to Vanilla to happen.

You and the few people you have talked to, are not a significant group.

The majority of the people who have been fighting for Classic WoW througout the last 15 years, don't want any modifications. Some small changes have already been made but that doesn't mean we should get more.

If you want Classic+ then you can fight for it for 15 years and you'll might get it in the year 2035. Fingers crossed.

[AceofH]

Stop with the bs. You do not need 1 per party. You do not have 40 dpsers in a raid.

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I am so tired of people spewing this bullshit argument. There are tons of changes already, that were not in Vanilla.

Being able to cancel a flight and land at the closest FP (not in Vanilla).

Being able to mail up to 12 slots at a time (not in Vanilla - everything had to be mailed in individual stacks).

Item Comparison (being able to hold down shift to compare a drop to an equipped item - not in Vanilla)

Auto Loot without having to hold down Shift (not in Vanilla)

Turning addons off/on without logging off (not in Vanilla)

Loot Trading in raids (not in Vanilla)

I can go on and on, but you get the point.

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If they were to do balance changes, it would at that point be Classic+

It isn't BS. if a feral druid + the dps boost it provided was > then someone elses, they would run a feral for every melee group in the raid. this is that whole OPTIMAL RAID SETUP THING.
same thing with a balance druid in caster groups. that aura for crit is good for tanks and healers, despite what you may think otherwise. especially paladin healers.

yeah. there is tons of changes - that doesn't mean you add more changes and make it less authentic. but man, for a group that likes to say the slippery slope is a fallacy, pro changers LOVE to sit there and say "There is already changes, why not add more".

[Coldfrostzero]

You and the few people you have talked to, are not a significant group.

The majority of the people who have been fighting for Classic WoW througout the last 15 years, don't want any modifications. Some small changes have already been made but that doesn't mean we should get more.

If you want Classic+ then you can fight for it for 15 years and you'll might get it in the year 2035. Fingers crossed.

I never said it was concrete proof of anything. Naxx is still anywhere from 4 months to a year away depending on how the release of BWL goes. When it does come out and people complete their "journey" the only thing left will be to hope people make alts and repeat the process or create new content. Otherwise, numbers will dwindle. Eventually, people will say, "why am I paying $15 to play a game that is now stagnant?" Whether that's the extremely lazy model of "release BC"

Yeah, that's a logical argument. Except the fact that Blizzard has already mentioned it as possible since they opened this can of worms. Until we get a 100%, "there will be no development on Classic" statement or "BC will be our next endeavor into legacy content" it's all speculation. Shutting down the topic doesn't make it go away, mind you.

[Mukind]

1) learn too spell and use actual English

2) Go back to school. You're embarrassingly ignorant and incapable of logic.

Oh great point clevin

tell us more about how classic is a perfect emulation of vanilla, lol

you have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back into whatever hole you came out of. Retailers lol

You exposed yourself the moment you implied classic was anything close to vanilla. Hahhahahah

Know your place pleb

[clevin]

I am so tired of people spewing this bullshit argument. There are tons of changes already, that were not in Vanilla. [/COLOR]

Sigh... you utterly missed the point....

The design goal of classic was to recreate Vanilla as closely as possible. Not perfectly, but as closely as they could given some constraints like integration into BNet, etc.

Now, you want to use the fact that some things changed to advocate for MORE changes which is confirmation of the slippery slope argument... that by changing one thing you open the door to people saying "We changed A, let's change B, C D and E!". Congrats, you just played yourself.

Also, most of the changes you note aren't gameplay related. Altering mana use... is. It has follow-on effects that will be obvious and inevitably some that will not be anticipated. We could do this... OR we could tell people that, with 15 years of hindsight, it's their issue if they picked a hybrid class and only want to DPS. Given that you seem to think that because some things have changed we can accept other changes, why not alter the mana use for my mage? Why not put combo points on the rogue vs the target? Why not.... See where this goes?

It's not that some of these changes are bad ideas, it's that you start to move farther and farther away from the primary goal of Classic... which is to be as close to Vanilla is it's reasonable to be.


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Oh great point clevin

tell us more about how classic is a perfect emulation of vanilla, lol

you have no idea what you're talking about. Crawl back into whatever hole you came out of. Retailers lol

You exposed yourself the moment you implied classic was anything close to vanilla. Hahhahahah

Know your place pleb

I played vanilla, asshole. You obviously did not. And I didn't argue it was perfect. It's goal is to be as close as it can be done given time and other constraints. But you just got an /ignore because you're incapable of anything more than a 13 year old's level of discourse.

[Kaver]

I never said it was concrete proof of anything. Naxx is still anywhere from 4 months to a year away depending on how the release of BWL goes. When it does come out and people complete their "journey" the only thing left will be to hope people make alts and repeat the process or create new content. Otherwise, numbers will dwindle. Eventually, people will say, "why am I paying $15 to play a game that is now stagnant?" Whether that's the extremely lazy model of "release BC"

Yeah, that's a logical argument. Except the fact that Blizzard has already mentioned it as possible since they opened this can of worms. Until we get a 100%, "there will be no development on Classic" statement or "BC will be our next endeavor into legacy content" it's all speculation. Shutting down the topic doesn't make it go away, mind you.

OK. But my point was that the majority of people who have been fighting for Classic for a long time don't want any Balancing changes to the game right now. So people are in most cases wrong if they think that the players who wanted Classic are the same players who are complaining about Classic.

[jackofwind]

Imagine Shadow Priests with no mana problems.

[Mukind]

Sigh... you utterly missed the point....

The design goal of classic was to recreate Vanilla as closely as possible. Not perfectly, but as closely as they could given some constraints like integration into BNet, etc.

Now, you want to use the fact that some things changed to advocate for MORE changes which is confirmation of the slippery slope argument... that by changing one thing you open the door to people saying "We changed A, let's change B, C D and E!". Congrats, you just played yourself.

Also, most of the changes you note aren't gameplay related. Altering mana use... is. It has follow-on effects that will be obvious and inevitably some that will not be anticipated. We could do this... OR we could tell people that, with 15 years of hindsight, it's their issue if they picked a hybrid class and only want to DPS. Given that you seem to think that because some things have changed we can accept other changes, why not alter the mana use for my mage? Why not put combo points on the rogue vs the target? Why not.... See where this goes?

It's not that some of these changes are bad ideas, it's that you start to move farther and farther away from the primary goal of Classic... which is to be as close to Vanilla is it's reasonable to be.


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I played vanilla, asshole. You obviously did not. And I didn't argue it was perfect. It's goal is to be as close as it can be done given time and other constraints. But you just got an /ignore because you're incapable of anything more than a 13 year old's level of discourse.

yea so what/

you played it, past tense. And were I'm sure terrible. Probably also a small child at the time.

Let me assure you nohitng we got from blizz is close to perfect, lol. This is a terrible terrible attempt to sorta half assed make a passable emulation.

Retailer = sum1 who pays blizz to play retail. It doesn't mean you did or did not play vanilla. It means you didn't play p servers, and thus really had nothing to do with us getting classic. Nor do you know anything about the expansion relative to people who did play on p servers. Where these topics have been discussed for over a decade.

[Improtaight]

first of all, what happened to #nochanges? its either you dont change anything, or u start with "lets just change this" and after that the "this" is multiplied by 100

balancing mana may cause other issues, there are always going to be balance issues, even in retail they keep nerfing specs, or buffing them in one way or another.
going into classic it was well known (especially if u looked in any forums) that a lot of classes/spec are not really viable for endgame. "the classic experience".

[Coldfrostzero]

That's not true either. You're going the extreme. I wanted Classic, but also during Vanilla I was the one asking for balance. If Vanilla hadn't ended, they'd still have balancing. They shifted their focus from supporting Vanilla to BC and that's why 2.0.1 had such drastic balancing changes. I was playing in the time when they were doing literal passes to all classes. Blizzard didn't do enough to give hybrids a real chance to play an actual hybrid, unless you were a warrior (in limited cases Priest and Shaman).

Could literally fix balance with nearly 1-2 changed per class. Would make all classes play optimally without completely breaking what makes Classic enjoyable. Most of it could be through gear, a talent tweak, increased duration of a self buff, or reduction in threat/resource cost. Mind you, this is balance for the class itself and not a way to seriously buff against pure classes.

Problem with the game is, after Wrath, they focused on homogenization instead of making classes stand up on their own two feet. They brought this back a little bit in BFA with fights like G'huun and Jaina where you're at an advantage for bringing Warlocks or Priests respectively. As the elitists in the classic community will tell you, if you're playing anything other than a Priest, Warrior, Mage, Rogue, and late game as a Holy Paladin...you're completely playing the game wrong.

[Gorgodeus]

It isn't BS. if a feral druid + the dps boost it provided was > then someone elses, they would run a feral for every melee group in the raid. this is that whole OPTIMAL RAID SETUP THING.
same thing with a balance druid in caster groups. that aura for crit is good for tanks and healers, despite what you may think otherwise. especially paladin healers.

yeah. there is tons of changes - that doesn't mean you add more changes and make it less authentic. but man, for a group that likes to say the slippery slope is a fallacy, pro changers LOVE to sit there and say "There is already changes, why not add more".

It is BS. You are not going to have 8 melee grps. No one said anything about making hybrids OP. But anyone with a brain can see that having a more balanced game would be beneficial.

You talk about too many druids in a raid, yet don't seem to have a problem with raids being flooded with mages, rogues and warriors.

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Hybrids have their place, if you change it or ask for balancing then youre asking them to shit on the reason they gave us classic, and if they bring TBC then theyll also have to balance the new changes from classic around the changes tbc brings which would be a nightmare.

Hybrids have their place = never raiding

TBC balance has nothing to do with Vanilla balance. Every expansion has seen a complete balance rework of classes.

[AceofH]

It is BS. You are not going to have 8 melee grps. No one said anything about making hybrids OP. But anyone with a brain can see that having a more balanced game would be beneficial.

You talk about too many druids in a raid, yet don't seem to have a problem with raids being flooded with mages, rogues and warriors.

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Hybrids have their place = never raiding

TBC balance has nothing to do with Vanilla balance. Every expansion has seen a complete balance rework of classes.

did i say 8 melee groups? no. you're just not understanding.
i said for EVERY MELEE GROUP.
so say a raid has 3 melee groups. thats 3 feral druids. and then 5 ranged groups would get a balance druid each. for 5.

and no. you didn't say anything about making hybrids op. but others. not here maybe in this thread, but others out there? DO WANT THAT TYPE OF CRAP.
they want druids to do the same friggen dps as a rogue, or a hunter, and keep all the friggen toys they have. which would be beyond broken.

and did i say i have no issues with mages rogues and warriors? no i did not. but the fact of the matter is, the point of classic is to be vanilla friggen wow. not vanilla + some balancing. not vanilla + everyones favorite retail quality of life. not vanilla + new content.

if you want that type of stuff, ask for a new friggen game. i spent 10 years watching what the best intended of changes has done to this game, and after finally getting a version of the game i actually had respect for again, i refuse to have it taken away.

[Ange]

Imagine Shadow Priests with no mana problems.

Why not give them an execute and maybe let them reg mana for the whole group? And why not scale the group heal and the mana regen from DPS? I am sure it would not break raid-class balance.

Oh wait, TBC shadows.

[gd8]

Ya we should add dual spec too cause I hate being locked to only 1 spec. Flight paths should be faster. Actually let's just give out flying mounts. Every class should do within 1% dmg of eachother in all situations because raids are the only thing that matters. Give druids a rez. Get rid of reagents. Get rid of hunter deadzone and the need for arrows.

sounds great to me

[Alexplode]

and no. you didn't say anything about making hybrids op. but others. not here maybe in this thread, but others out there? DO WANT THAT TYPE OF CRAP.
they want druids to do the same friggen dps as a rogue, or a hunter, and keep all the friggen toys they have. which would be beyond broken.

now that is something that def I don't want for classic/classic+

if you want that type of stuff, ask for a new friggen game. i spent 10 years watching what the best intended of changes has done to this game, and after finally getting a version of the game i actually had respect for again, i refuse to have it taken away.

classic should stay as it is since there is a huge playerbase that wants it that way. Can't do nothing about it. We all seeking different things in this gamem Blizzard decided to go with #nochanges it is for a reason. Let me elaborate...

You talk about too many druids in a raid, yet don't seem to have a problem with raids being flooded with mages, rogues and warriors.

Aceof concern would be hybrid's toolkit overshadowing dps only specialized class and taking the spot which looking at the big picture it is not as simply tweaking mana but looking at a whole raid dps throughout with a set combination of specs. basically aiming simulations where no hybrid can outperform a pure dps spec but not have a raid swarmed by hybrids or pure dps. Man that is hard to balance...

Again, it was a "what if thread". On a possible future we may have our classic+ which It could be a good topic and to share of ideas on a new thread.
The only thing that worries me is thinking in what blizz said that would be equal to retail which can go good or very bad, probably would feel like a very incomplete retail version. I really hope not and i hope it is brought up at Blizzcon.

[ellieg]

sounds great to me

Sweet. BFA is available. Happy to help you find the game you desire.

[jackofwind]

Why not give them an execute and maybe let them reg mana for the whole group? And why not scale the group heal and the mana regen from DPS? I am sure it would not break raid-class balance.

Oh wait, TBC shadows.

Right?

It's hard to imagine that people can be so naive as to think a single class's balance and tuning exists in a bubble.