Why I look forward to Calia's rule (if blizzard does anything with this)

[Alixie]

Funnier how it's mostly Alliance who think we need this cleansing.

Are they the Forsaken or the Scourge? Right now, there's no difference.

[Arrashi]

Everything is pointing to the factions becoming much closer.

Side note, I bet you the expansion is called Shadow of Death.

Heroes 3 already did that.

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Are they the Forsaken or the Scourge? Right now, there's no difference.

Except for everything that makes diffrence.

[Mehrunes]

Except for everything that makes diffrence.

Shhh, it's time to pretend it doesn't exist because it's convenient that way to the people championing Calia. Ignoring inconvenient parts of Forsaken identity is kinda a running theme with the pro-Calia position after all.

[mickybrighteyes]

Shhh, it's time to pretend it doesn't exist because it's convenient that way to the people championing Calia. Ignoring inconvenient parts of Forsaken identity is kinda a running theme with the pro-Calia position after all.

it's also the running theme with the writers...

see: Voss.. and well... basically the entire story so far...

[Unholyground]

I think a guy who is not even able to cut a post to just the one small sentence he actually is answering to doesn't possesses the capacities to guess the future features of a MMO

I have predicted a ton of stuff accurately over the years.

[sighy]

The best path forward out of this stupid story line, is if Calia builds off the Reunion event, and creates a home base where her undead and the living (Alliance) mingle and live together, rather than simply joining the Horde. Sort of like a new coalition/guild hall, or if its a new city, is neutral like Dalaran. Calia and Derrek are on good terms with Jaina and Anduin, and there's probably plenty of living Lordaeron humans who might want to rebuild a new home with the true heir to Lordaeron.

Why would the Forsaken accept either of them? Especially Calia.
The Forsaken are founded on bitterness and their ties to the Horde are basically a political necessity more so than actually liking Orcs&stuff. Plus Calia flies, in the face of everything the Forsaken are and can never have. Because the light actively harms them... that is the reason they so broadly embraced the cult of eternal shadow to begin with. Yes there are a few light wielding undead, however they have been the most extreme of zealots who do so despite the obvious physical harm it does them.

Beyond that Calia is the sister of the man they hate the most and have dedicated their entire existence to destroying. Besides the fact she chose to abandon them, before the whole scourge debacle even happened and then hid, for decades.

Undead Night Elves should embrace their nationalist roots and vow to use the gift of undeath as an opportunity to defend the Kaldorei again.

Tyrande would never accept them. And their choice to become a dark ranger was based on their disillusion, with Tyrande and Elune to begin with. From what little dialogue they did get.

BUT this is too much to ask for, so the next best thing is that they build a neutral base who want to focus on protecting their new race while offering help to the Horde/Alliance. If Bolvar ends up going evil Lich King, they could be uncorrupted version of the Ebon Blade.

Before 8.2.5 i would have called this unlikely, because why would Blizzard abolish one of the most iconic class things. But seeing how the forsaken lost pretty much everything they could and got Calia to top the dung pie i could actually see this happen.

Another option is that they recover Undercity, Calia takes the throne, and that becomes a neutral hub for both fractions. Not a Horde city because there's no way to recover Teldrassil, and Darkshore are blight covered crumbled ruins.

At this point it would probably be better to rebuild the ruins of alterac, if one was to go for a new undead faction hub. Because if they undid that, what would be the point of losing the Undercity to begin with? If a faction in WH40k decided to go full exterminatus they wouldn't repopulate and rebuild the place immideately, for example. There needs to be at least some time, until the fallout subsides.

I have predicted a ton of stuff accurately over the years.

When you say a lot of things you have to be right, at some point.

[Raisei]

Heroes 3 already did that.

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Except for everything that makes diffrence.

Hmmm, care to give examples instead of just an empty claim?

Scourge:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by the Lich King through magic
- No free will
- No real intelligence, hive mind

Forsaken:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by Sylvanas through manipulation and violence
- with free will
- Fully intelligent, no hive mind

Sylvanas controll is less visible then then Lich Kings, but she did abuse their hopelessness and despair to recreate herself as the unchallenged leader of this group and use them for her plans. I also give you point 4 and 5, however, the fact that they actually have free will and intelligence makes them WORSE then the Scourge, who have neither, because of the way they make use of these advantages. Namely in creating more deadly weapons to kill more living people. I still have no idea how the ingame lore manages to bend the other Horde races so much that they accept these walking horrors with B and C weapons among themselves. The Tauren druids should collectively suicide after seeing the Forsakens work on Darkshore and Liadrin and her Blood Knights should call for a crusade...

I still think that Calia is the answer to exactly this problem. At the moment the Forsaken simply do not fit the "new" Horde, to avoid the need to slaughter them as the life-hating monsters they are they require change, which is surely a bummer for those players who want to be the walking horrors. Oh well.

[Soon-TM]

I am loving all these folks ITT trying to defend Calia because of Sylvie's "one dimension-ality", when the former is as one-dimensional as it can get: "see bois, undeath isn't so bad, just follow me ".

[Verdugo]

I still think that Calia is the answer to exactly this problem. At the moment the Forsaken simply do not fit the "new" Horde, to avoid the need to slaughter them as the life-hating monsters they are they require change, which is surely a bummer for those players who want to be the walking horrors. Oh well.

Thing is, there was no problem. Only people like you and degenerates like Golden see a problem.

Infracted.

[Katchii]

Hmmm, care to give examples instead of just an empty claim?

The only thing that separates the Scourge from the Forsaken is free will, but that is a hugely profound thing.

The Lich King literally commanded them through magic and there was no free will.

The Forsaken have free will, but were manipulated by Sylvanas to do her bidding, but they CHOSE to follow her.

That makes the Forsaken no different than any other sentient race in the game.

[Arrashi]

Hmmm, care to give examples instead of just an empty claim?

Scourge:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by the Lich King through magic
- No free will
- No real intelligence, hive mind

Forsaken:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by Sylvanas through manipulation and violence
- with free will
- Fully intelligent, no hive mind

So 3 of your points are diffrences, and one is objectively wrong. Nice for defeating your own argument.

Also, you realise that if anything, latest cinematic proved that sylvanas never ever had any "control".

[Yuugumo]

Shhh, it's time to pretend it doesn't exist because it's convenient that way to the people championing Calia. Ignoring inconvenient parts of Forsaken identity is kinda a running theme with the pro-Calia position after all.

Whats that "forsaken Identity" you speak of?

[Rojakka]

I love how people say Sylvanas ruled the Forsaken through control and manipulation and mind control and all these other baseless memes but completely ignore all the times she has been betrrayed by Forsaken characters, threreby completely rendering their "argument" bullshit. Gee I wonder why these trolls don't mention those parts People who have not read one book or a single Quest text are so easy to identify lol

[Mehrunes]

Hmmm, care to give examples instead of just an empty claim?

Scourge:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by the Lich King through magic
- No free will
- No real intelligence, hive mind

Forsaken:
- Rotting Zombies
- Intent on destroying life and raising it as undead
- Controlled by Sylvanas through manipulation and violence
- with free will
- Fully intelligent, no hive mind

Sylvanas controll is less visible then then Lich Kings, but she did abuse their hopelessness and despair to recreate herself as the unchallenged leader of this group and use them for her plans. I also give you point 4 and 5, however, the fact that they actually have free will and intelligence makes them WORSE then the Scourge, who have neither, because of the way they make use of these advantages. Namely in creating more deadly weapons to kill more living people. I still have no idea how the ingame lore manages to bend the other Horde races so much that they accept these walking horrors with B and C weapons among themselves. The Tauren druids should collectively suicide after seeing the Forsakens work on Darkshore and Liadrin and her Blood Knights should call for a crusade...

I still think that Calia is the answer to exactly this problem. At the moment the Forsaken simply do not fit the "new" Horde, to avoid the need to slaughter them as the life-hating monsters they are they require change, which is surely a bummer for those players who want to be the walking horrors. Oh well.

I just love how you demanded examples from Arrashi in a tone indicating there aren't any only to shoot yourself in the foot five seconds later. And then beat it to death. And that's even with you making things up in point #2 and #3 for the Forsaken. Truly sublime.

Whats that "forsaken Identity" you speak of?

Are you by any chance going to pretend that an entire race is magically devoid of an identity? Be my guest, I suppose.

[Yuugumo]

Are you by any chance going to pretend that an entire race is magically devoid of an identity? Be my guest, I suppose.

No, I am asking what is their up to recently current Identity.

[Soon-TM]

No, I am asking what is their up to recently current Identity.

Just in the remote chance you aren't actually trolling, have this, from the Forsaken intro in Vanilla/Classic:

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order, Human, Undead, or otherwise.

They certainly do not look like the poor, oppressed goody-goody sadsacks who only need a motherly figure to show them the true path, as portrayed by Golden in that abomination of a book that is BtS.

Forsaken had to join the Horde because their former associates in the Alliance... Well, forsook them. But now, all of a sudden, they accept Anduin's BFF Calia and her newly found BF as their rulers, because Sylvanas was a meanie who told them bad things after 15 years at the helm.

[Raisei]

I just love how you demanded examples from Arrashi in a tone indicating there aren't any only to shoot yourself in the foot five seconds later. And then beat it to death. And that's even with you making things up in point #2 and #3 for the Forsaken. Truly sublime.

My point was to prove that the differences between the Scourge and the Forsaken makes the latter worse and more dangerous and thus even less believable to be left alive in a society of people that want to continue living. Hence just like we kill demons and void thingies on a regular basis, if the Forsaken identity is build on their wish to destroy live, we would have to kill them. But I guess I was too subtle. My apologies.

Point 2 is wrong? Huh. Could have fooled me with developing mass-murdering plagues (with innoent human test subjects) and murdering both Alliance and Horde troops at the Wrathgate. "Death to the Living" and so on. Must have been the Tusker that did that then.

Yeah, yeah, that was Putress, but all Forsaken I ever met would have happily joined him. Like that guy in the Darkshore questline: "Don't bother me, I have a forest to blight." Basically a race that uses B and C weapons against civilian populations on a regular basis (Gilneas, Drustvar and more) and that uses the corpses of those they murdered as food or to damn more souls to their own cursed existence is objectively trying to destroy life.

If you still deny that Sylvanas manipulated and used the Forsaken for her own personal gain and literally murdered people that even remotely threatened her power over them then I think you have made up your head canon and nothing I say will reach you. Seems like a going trend with the Banshee loyalists.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah, yeah, that was Putress, but all Forsaken I ever met would have happily joined him. Like that guy in the Darkshore questline: "Don't bother me, I have a forest to blight." Basically a race that uses B and C weapons against civilian populations on a regular basis (Gilneas, Drustvar and more) and that uses the corpses of those they murdered as food or to damn more souls to their own cursed existence is objectively trying to destroy life.

If you still deny that Sylvanas manipulated and used the Forsaken for her own personal gain and literally murdered people that even remotely threatened her power over them then I think you have made up your head canon and nothing I say will reach you. Seems like a going trend with the Banshee loyalists.

The Forsaken were so committed to destroying life that they had to be made to attack Gilneas before recent retcons, ditto, their plan of expansion consisted of securing their hold on Lordaeron, the land to which they have an actual claim, and then vegetating because Sylvanas didn't want people coming over to kick her shit in. BFA and BTS had to retcon both of these things in order to position them, or rather Sylvanas exclusively, as a world-spanning baddie. Re: Sylvanas conning the Forsaken, you contradict your own post, but then you know this already - the notion that this was purely a one-sided abusive relationship rather than a co-dependent one on both ends is an invention of BTS, ergo, of little consequence to the viability of the Forsaken's prior identity. You know this because you acknowledge the Forsaken were already doing this shit prior, without Sylvanas anywhere in sight and that Putress even took it one step further from "Beware the living" to "Death to the living".

[Reinhart11]

The Forsaken are far less destructive to life when it comes to nature itself compared to the Scourge for example, just to name the other big undead faction(Legion and Old Gods also corrupt nature way more compared to Forsaken). Just compare the Eastern Plague Lands with Hilsbrad or Silverpine Forest or the lands around Undercity.

In none of these regions the Forsaken destroy life itself for the luls or corrupt it with death and necromantic magic to grow giant mushrooms. So no, the Forsaken don't destroy life itself.

Warzones like Darkshore and Gilneas are different matter. Not arguing that Forsaken are holy in any way, shape or form, but claiming that they destroy all life is down right wrong based on what we see in their own regions and in other places, where they're not at war with the living.

Of course Blizzard can change this in the future, but under Calia's leadership its unlikely. And Sylvanas is no longer part of the Forsaken. But even Sylvanas wouldn't down right retarded to eradicate all life. What is death without life. Ironically, nothing..

But i guess Sylvanas is so badly written these days, that such details don't matter anyway.

[Yuugumo]

Just in the remote chance you aren't actually trolling, have this, from the Forsaken intro in Vanilla/Classic:

Convinced that the primitive races of the Horde can help them achieve victory over their enemies, the Forsaken have entered an alliance of convenience. Harboring no true loyalty for their new allies, they go to any lengths to ensure their dark plans come to fruition. As one of the Forsaken, you must massacre any who pose a threat to the new order, Human, Undead, or otherwise.

They certainly do not look like the poor, oppressed goody-goody sadsacks who only need a motherly figure to show them the true path, as portrayed by Golden in that abomination of a book that is BtS.

Forsaken had to join the Horde because their former associates in the Alliance... Well, forsook them. But now, all of a sudden, they accept Anduin's BFF Calia and her newly found BF as their rulers, because Sylvanas was a meanie who told them bad things after 15 years at the helm.

I am not in fact trolling.

I am asking because I get the feeling that many people equate the Forsaken's identity and motives to that of Sylvanas, and rightfully so, because she tirelessly worked to off anyone who would have a different view than her, and there is some (not proven but quite possible) evidence that undead under her control or ones raised by her are affected by a sort of mind control. In fact though, the Forsaken's motives and Identity are actually not Sylvanas'.

While indeed true that during vanilla, most forsaken were mostly with the sole thought of revenge in mind, (Revenge against Arthas and also against the living) after Arthas was disposed, with also the help of the Alliance as well, some just wanted to live the rest of their un-lives in peace, and come naturally (as much as possible) to the end of their existence. (e.g. Desolate Council, now disposed of for opposing Sylvanas' views)

So now that we have set the fact that there actually are people within the forsaken who do not think as Sylvanas does, lets turn to the Forsaken people's reaction to Sylvanas herself, well, FORSAKING them. Needless to say the Forsaken do not like to be well, forsaken, especially so by their leader. Even loyal Forsaken soldiers fighting under Sylvanas are now seen doubting her aswell as the reason for their existance, imagine what the others think.

All in all, the forsaken have lost their home Undercity, and also their leader. Their only home left is the Horde which they never liked in the first place, and they are starting to think their existence may indeed be pointless after all. Is it not then natural for them to start searching for reason to, well, exist? For meaning? Especially if they may or may not know that their afterlife is bound to be eternal hell?

People in such situations are naturally going to turn to religion/Light or anything of the sort that can help them redeem themselves. Calia is the anchor to their Past, being a Menethil, but they indeed would have never accepted a living queen. Now that she is a light-sustained undead, she also represents a possible tangible future they can work towards.

The notion that all Forsaken=Evil plaguing zombies killing for fun and hating on everyone is very much not true.