I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Niter]

who caresa bout balanced arena?

again

Death match is for plebs, fighting over basic resources in vanilla had more engagement

Anyone who likes arenas is automatically disqualified from talking about what is and is not good in pvp. You have no idea.

There is no way to defend your love of death match. lol. Even call of duty players wouldn't defend it.

Where did I mention death match or arena to begin with? I even supported the idea that arena tended to favour some comps and not others.

You just assumed that everything I said about PvP was because of the arena. You couldn't be further from the truth. It was very common to have World PvP in TBC, both in Outland and in Azeroth. City raids were fairly common. BGs were WAY more popular than arenas and a quick search on Warcraftmovies would show a staggering amount of BG videos, but not that many arena matches... And that was in 2007? It's been so long...

Anyway, everything I said was based on my experience in PvP. And I did not play arena. I did not want to be a Resto Druid. Back in TBC, if you wanted to set foot in any of the arenas, you'd have to be Resto. If you wanted to play a Paladin in the arena, you would have to be Holy. As a Warrior, being anything other than Arms was a no no. This is one of the reasons why I criticised the arena in my post. You just overlooked it.

[Mozu]

This.

I see the "flying killed world PvP" line get thrown around in threads like this, and all I can figure is that the people who keep screaming it either played on incredibly low-population servers or never left major cities during BC and Wrath.

I constantly saw people ganking back and forth, fighting over those tower objectives in various Outland zones, guilds going at it outside raid/dungeon entrances, Horde/Alliance players kiting elites into each other's cities in HFP, and so on. When I was out murdering demons for Aldor rep and bumped into a Hordie doing the same thing, it was on just as much as it would've been during Classic WoW. I certainly didn't see any less world PvP in BC than I did in Classic.

I love this argument. It's kinda like saying "since it's cold outside, global warming is clearly fake!"

Just because you saw world pvp happen with flying does not mean flying didn't severely diminish the amount that would've happened without flying. It would've been 10-fold whatever you experienced.

[Heathy]

but would it?

i'd argue most ppl didn't pvp as much while levelling because the real goal is to level, get to max then get appropriate gear to be decent at max unless ofc you're making a twink, then you are reliant on your pvp bracket to find ppl your level range.

most ppl at max have very little reasons to be roaming the world at max level, if you wanted to do dailies or dungeons you had to land, in tbc there were zone buff flags that you could capture and provide a buff to your faction, this generated some pvp but likely not a massive amount. at some point the minor benefit the buff gave outweighed the time it took to capture it. at least on my server it was useful upto a point. then again perhaps for me this is the difference between pve and pvp, ppl on pve, pvp when they want to pvp, ppl on pvp, get pvp all the time, with no real choice, unless that choice is not to leave town. generally i've seen my fair share of world pvp even on pve servers. but most if it did happen, before the bgs. when there was no alternative way to get honor, or pvp.

hell i think even SS and tarren mill largely happened when AV opened, as the bg entrance is right above tarren mill, so you have all the alliance landing at south shore, all the horde landing at tarren mill, to queue for AV. thats how that happened. on pve anyway, thats how it happened, when you have that much concentration of high level players, and a lot of players, you can be sure someone will start a fight. ofc i totally also forgot about DHK's which made killing certain npcs bad and therefore also hurt world pvp.

[Black Goat]

I love this argument. It's kinda like saying "since it's cold outside, global warming is clearly fake!"

Just because you saw world pvp happen with flying does not mean flying didn't severely diminish the amount that would've happened without flying. It would've been 10-fold whatever you experienced.

I like your argument, or lack thereof.

Just because you think flying "severely diminished" WPVP doesn't mean it did, either. Your perspective vs. his perspective. This is all one big subjective debate that's literally going nowhere.

Until anyone has actual data to present, like participation numbers/hours, HKs, hours spent flagged, resources collected/destroyed/stolen... No one has an argument, they only have an opinion. And all of them stink.

[Mozu]

Just because you think flying "severely diminished" WPVP doesn't mean it did, either.

Of course it does. If you can get away easier with flying than you can without, the only thing it can possibly do is diminish. You can infer plenty from basic logic of mechanics.

At best, it didn't diminish it much and there's nobody that chose to fly above people to avoid them when they would've had to engage with a ground mount.

Of course, we both know that's a ridiculous claim and realistically pointless to even consider. But this is the internet, so using the very ends of the bell curve as the main argument is standard.

[Gratlim]

TBC is the pinacle of wow. Classic while being so good still pales in comparison with BC. Both BC pve and BC pvp are on a whole other level. Broken classes and specs god fixed as well. Class /spec discrimination was nowhere near what we currently have in Classic.

Wpvp in Helfire peninsula is imo better that having a semi raid farming a dungeon entrance 10v1. Flying is irrelevant as we see in Classic even on big pvp server, players just mostly avoid each other if evenly match or questing.

The only focus is g/hour or getting prebis. Actual wpvp guilds are rare and few. I hope alm if that will change in p2 though.

The only thing I can agree on is the (negative) impact arena had. And I used to spam them as sl/sl lock.

[SirCowdog]

I love this argument. It's kinda like saying "since it's cold outside, global warming is clearly fake!"

Just because you saw world pvp happen with flying does not mean flying didn't severely diminish the amount that would've happened without flying. It would've been 10-fold whatever you experienced.

The funny thing is that the same argument applies to blaming flying for the lack of WPVP. "I didn't see WPVP, but I did see some people flying away from it! Therefor flying caused the decline of WPVP!!!!1!11one!"

Read my responses here, and here.

Flying didn't hurt WPVP. Giving people better rewards for less effort, and in a more balanced environment, along with a severe lack of PVP objectives at max level did 1000x more damage to WPVP.

The only reason to think that flying "hurts" WPVP is if you ignore all the other factors.

[Mozu]

The funny thing is that the same argument applies to blaming flying for the lack of WPVP. "I didn't see WPVP, but I did see some people flying away from it! Therefor flying caused the decline of WPVP!!!!1!11one!"

Read my responses here, and here.

Flying didn't hurt WPVP. Giving people better rewards for less effort, and in a more balanced environment, along with a severe lack of PVP objectives at max level did 1000x more damage to WPVP.

The only reason to think that flying "hurts" WPVP is if you ignore all the other factors.

No, it doesn't.

If someone can get away from pvp with flying where they couldn't previously, flying by default diminishes pvp. The only real question is "by how much?"

I never said flying was the sole reason world pvp doesn't exist. It's just a (major) contributing factor.

[AceofH]

Nope, completely false. World PvP happened a lot in BC...in fact, I remember it happening more in BC than in Vanilla. Tons of action in Southshore, and capital city runs that I either defended or participated in the attack.

World PvP started dying a little bit in Wrath, but didn't really go away until Cata.



Your emphasis on "all" is what makes this completely false again. I didn't see Arena gear become a notable factor until very late in BC. I was a casual PvP player throughout Vanilla and BC, and it wasn't until Wrath that the gear became the deciding factor in PvP over player skill.



Already pointed out that you were wrong about World PvP, so the remaining point(s) you have here are suspect at best and irrelevant at worst.



I don't disagree with this other than to say that most players in BC didn't play Arena, and the majority of Arena players themselves weren't that serious about it. Obviously, if you were one of those that focused on Arena, then your perspective on how important this point is will vary wildly.



I don't disagree with this in general. However, I don't think PvP alone is responsible for the homogenization of the classes...Blizz was looking to cut costs and it's much easier to maintain classes when you only worry about the simple things such as damage output in lieu of rock-pap



Except that it wasn't really true in BC. Heroic dungeons were a natural progression at max level. Everyone I knew played in the heroic dungeons, so it wasn't a segregation at all during that expansion.

I would agree that what Retail has today is stupid, but I would argue it has more to do with laziness / cheapness on Blizz's part than segregation. Count the number of dungeons and raids in BC and Wrath vs what Blizz has provided ever since.



This actually makes no sense. There is no link between dailies and breaking world PvP and playerbase segregation. BTW, this paragraph does little more than present you as an elitist jerk.



Sorry, BC was a solid evolution of the game. Wrath started more of the things you despise about Retail than BC by a good measure, but even then I wouldn't pin Wrath as the *major* reason.

I suspect that you didn't actually play PvP or you suffer from denial (i.e. the opposite of nostalgia) of how BC actually was.

idle curiosity, how do you multiquote like that?

[Th3Scourge]

TBC was amazing

You are wrong

[LionSinMaikeru]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player...

Well isn't it wonderful then, that PvE was/is the primary focus of WoW.

I'd rather them get the primary objective correct and mess up on a mini-game than vice-versa.

[deenman]

What ist it with you guys and world pvp? World pvp just sucks. There are only like 2 scenarios in world pvp:

1. You want to do shit in the open world and get ganked by a group of people or a high level player or a class that you cant beat (warrior vs. warlock for example, and please spare me with your stories where you as a warrior managed to beat a warlock. nobody cares)
In this example the only thing that happens ist that other people are wasting your time and you get frustrated.

2. You are a high level player and/or are with your friends und you gank somebody that has no chance agianst you. In this case you are an asshole that just wastes other peoples time and patience.

Either you are an asshole or you are a victim. So yeah world pvp is garbage. deal with it.

On the topic of TBC: TBC made everything better and even did alot of new things which are great. TBC is better than classic in every way.

also this meme that ''flying instantly ruined wpvp'' is a myth,not only did it not,i played the hell out of tbc and wpvp was a constant thing,also the ACTUAL decline in wpvp started with vanila when bg's came out

[draynay]

Didn't we just get this thread? Why do we need another?

[Mozu]

also this meme that ''flying instantly ruined wpvp'' is a myth,not only did it not,i played the hell out of tbc and wpvp was a constant thing,also the ACTUAL decline in wpvp started with vanila when bg's came out

Are you suggesting that the wpvp you saw would've been the same or less without flying? What a ridiculous claim.

[Heathy]

Are you suggesting that the wpvp you saw would've been the same or less without flying? What a ridiculous claim.

you said it yourself though.

If someone can get away from pvp with flying where they couldn't previously, flying by default diminishes pvp.

if that person is trying to get away from the pvp, they inherently don't want to pvp, therefore they aren't interested in taking part in said pvp, how they leave, by ground by air by hearthstone, or being summoned away, it doesn't matter how they leave, the fact is that they are leaving, not engaging, if they are engaging then they aren't flying while fighting, they have landed and are fighting. not leaving.

I would likely agree that flying did some damage to world pvp, but largely i'd say that because you can't do anything from a mount, that it never reached a point that flying became broken or over powered, it has always mattered how many numbers you have. and or how geared you are vs them. who can fly and who has what mount doesn't factor into a fight once the fight has begun. either you have enough ppl to win or you don't.

[Misuteri]

Was I on one of the only servers where people would do Halaa and/or Hellfire Towers for 3 hours at a time because it was /gasp fun???

I mean sure they both became numbers thing but I’ve played D on Halaa outgunned for an hour or more at a time.

[arkanon]

You know nothing of TBC
Yes it did destroy you are wrong.
And the proof is the AMAZING times we had when isle of quel`danas patch was released, people were creating gank guilds and putting out hit squads on x players.

EternalBaby, i appreciate this may be your personal recollection of events, but i personally enjoyed extensive Wpvp throughout all of BC's lifespan, and the only major difference QD added was concentrating players in one small zone.

[Spicymemer]

Flying didnt kill wpvp, battlegrounds killed wpvp.
Arena didnt ruin pvp, Arena is not pvp, its dueling competitions.
WoW is primarily a PvE game, TBC raiding > Vanilla raiding
Some people might argue that 40 mans are better than 25 mans, then stick to Vanilla if the raider count is more important to you than better difficulty raiding.
Wpvp was more alive in TBC than it was in Vanilla (post battlegrounds)

TBC is better than Vanilla i most ways, debate me.

[arkanon]

Was I on one of the only servers where people would do Halaa and/or Hellfire Towers for 3 hours at a time because it was /gasp fun???

I mean sure they both became numbers thing but I’ve played D on Halaa outgunned for an hour or more at a time.

This was my experience as well, and im really not sure why people either dont remember, or didnt experience it.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying didnt kill wpvp, battlegrounds killed wpvp.
Arena didnt ruin pvp, Arena is not pvp, its dueling competitions.
WoW is primarily a PvE game, TBC raiding > Vanilla raiding
Some people might argue that 40 mans are better than 25 mans, then stick to Vanilla if the raider count is more important to you than better difficulty raiding.
Wpvp was more alive in TBC than it was in Vanilla (post battlegrounds)

TBC is better than Vanilla i most ways, debate me.

A 40man raid that is Sub lfr difficulty is less interesting to me than a well tuned 10man raid, the numbers dont really factor into it. I didnt enjoy 40man raiding, and i wouldnt enjoy it now or ever.

[blankfaced]

Only ever really did BG's and dailies, TBC is one of my favorite expansions. Resto druid and fire mage mains.