I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[SirCowdog]

No, it doesn't.

If someone can get away from pvp with flying where they couldn't previously, flying by default diminishes pvp. The only real question is "by how much?"

I never said flying was the sole reason world pvp doesn't exist. It's just a (major) contributing factor.

Saying that flying is a major factor for harming wpvp is like exclaiming about a paper cut on your thumb while you're bleeding to death from multiple gunshot wounds.

In other words: A gross over-exaggeration.

Yes, on occasion a flying mount will allow a person to escape from a PVP situation. But I'd argue it just as often allows you to get the jump on someone or reach a fight before it's over.

Either way, is that anywhere near as harmful as the thousands of people who never enter into WPVP at all because they're sitting in Shattrath waiting for a BG or Arena queue to pop?

You guys are so focused on this one tiny aspect that you're not seeing the bigger issue. To claim that flight is a "major" factor is completely false.

[Mozu]

if that person is trying to get away from the pvp, they inherently don't want to pvp, therefore they aren't interested in taking part in said pvp, how they leave, by ground by air by hearthstone, or being summoned away, it doesn't matter how they leave, the fact is that they are leaving, not engaging, if they are engaging then they aren't flying while fighting, they have landed and are fighting. not leaving.

Right, but before flying they'd be forced to participate in the pvp because they'd have no other option. People rarely got away by ground or by being summoned (and you're welcome to go to classic servers to confirm that), and hearthing due to its long cast was difficult.

There are plenty of times I didn't want to participate in pvp initially either, but because I was forced (instead of having an easy way of not engaging like flying) I ended up having a good time. Again, this is happening today on classic servers. This is not a nostalgia-based claim.

You guys are so focused on this one tiny aspect that you're not seeing the bigger issue. To claim that flight is a "major" factor is completely false.

Not only is it a major factor, it is one of the biggest if not the biggest factor. To claim that flight is NOT a "major" factor is completely false.

[Hctaz]

Flying did not destroy world pvp. If you actually played tbc and went out of shattrath you'd know there were pretty good battles in nagrand, hellfire and terokkar at the objectives and at the daily hubs.

How exactly was mindleslly farming mobs better than dailies? Which ilone is more zombir like?

And by no means did you always have something to do in vanilla, not anymore than tbc anyway. Unless you were a high rank tryhard. But then you had the conqueror/justicar titles which also took a really good time of mindleslly spamming bgs

It definitely did kill the same KINDA of World PvP in classic. There's a pretty big difference between the organic WPvP we had in Vanilla vs the PvP centered around specific capture locations. I know they had these same kind of objectives in Classic, but it didn't feel like a blatant excuse for PvP servers to engage in PvP again like it kinda does in TBC content. I think the WPVP locations in Classic were more about engaging players on non PvP servers to try out PvP in specific delegated areas. It allowed them to dip their toes in without it being a gank fest.

Now I will say that I don't blame flying solely for killing off WPvP. I think it plays a part in the event, but I think there are definitely several other factors. What's the point in WPvP when you can just queue for an arena or BG to farm honor and get gear? Where's the fun in a massive scale battle for a specific location when the big capital city is a neutral PvP zone? You aren't inconveniencing the horde when you're also inconveniencing yourself by killing NPCs. There was a lot of fun to be had walking into Ironforge (cuz let's be honest that was the main Alliance city) and just absolutely destroying every NPC.

[OokOok]

People who love TBC are the same people who Love Vanilla/classic, your typical player(s) who play on private servers cause they never got to actually play/experience it but like to claim they did despite not actually knowing anything.

TBC was terrible, yes even the raids.... just because ONE fight was fun/good doesn't mean the raid was good. Yes Kael'thas was an awesome fight, but the raid as a whole was terrible. Mount Hyjal made no sense from a story perspective and was just 6 bosses that were poorly designed with waves of trash inbetween.\

This is also back during atttunments still, Classic attunements were easy mode, half the classic playerbase wouldn't step foot in BT as it required you to clear SSC/TK, not just.....touch an orb or kill a dragonkin in an easy 10man dng.

It was the first season of Arena so it was very poorly balanced and glitchy. Unless you were a Warrior/Rogue/Druid.

The only good thing in TBC is the fact there was what....16 Dngs or something that had a heroic mode, so at max level there was still something to do, you didn't hit 60 and farm UBRS for shoulders everyday all day, you had actual options.

Dailies....we know everyone loves dailies right, well you had to actually do them in TBC.

[Hctaz]

Right, but before flying they'd be forced to participate in the pvp because they'd have no other option. People rarely got away by ground or by being summoned (and you're welcome to go to classic servers to confirm that), and hearthing due to its long cast was difficult.

There are plenty of times I didn't want to participate in pvp initially either, but because I was forced (instead of having an easy way of not engaging like flying) I ended up having a good time. Again, this is happening today on classic servers. This is not a nostalgia-based claim.

I definitely agree. I hated WPvP for the longest time. I didn't actually have a good time on a PvP server until Argus on US-Tichondrius. I started off just raging constantly at the ganking and bullshit I dealt with just trying to complete my daily quests, but then I started forming counter raids. Before I knew it, I was spending hours just forming groups to kill off the bullshit alliance raid groups that would form every day just to camp certain locations on Argus to piss off the horde dominated server. It was a lot of fun slowly winning and losing ground. Trying to make your way through the choke point of a mountain and retake the teleport pad. Lots of fun to be had honestly. Stuff that was basically only possible due to a lack of flying.

[SirCowdog]

Right, but before flying they'd be forced to participate in the pvp because they'd have no other option. People rarely got away by ground or by being summoned (and you're welcome to go to classic servers to confirm that), and hearthing due to its long cast was difficult.

There are plenty of times I didn't want to participate in pvp initially either, but because I was forced (instead of having an easy way of not engaging like flying) I ended up having a good time. Again, this is happening today on classic servers. This is not a nostalgia-based claim.

And you know what hasn't happened today in classic servers? Battlegrounds or arena.

Obviously there's going to be a surge of activity for the implementation of the honor system, as people scamble for initial ranks. But once all 3 BGs are in place, WPVP will degenerate to ganking at summoning stones and popular pve quest areas.

Also, ganking is the lowest, worst form of PVP, and not qorth defending at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment. It's a fundmentally toxic amd selfish point of view.

[Mozu]

And you know what hasn't happened today in classic servers? Battlegrounds or arena.

Obviously there's going to be a surge of activity for the implementation of the honor system, as people scamble for initial ranks. But once all 3 BGs are in place, WPVP will degenerate to ganking at summoning stones and popular pve quest areas.

Also, ganking is the lowest, worst form of PVP, and not qorth defending at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment. It's a fundmentally toxic amd selfish point of view.

Arenas don't exist in classic, and battlegrounds will definitely lower wPvp, but not by as much as you think.

Ganking is part of world pvp. I've had to call my guildmates when someone was ganking me, and it has led to hour-long battles in STV. Imagine the horror of that!!!!

I'm sorry that you feel it would make for a better game that instead of socializing with my guild for cool pvp battles that I can't escape I should just fly away on my merry way and avoid it all together. Perhaps PvE servers are more your speed?

[Spicymemer]

People who love TBC are the same people who Love Vanilla/classic, your typical player(s) who play on private servers cause they never got to actually play/experience it but like to claim they did despite not actually knowing anything.

TBC was terrible, yes even the raids.... just because ONE fight was fun/good doesn't mean the raid was good. Yes Kael'thas was an awesome fight, but the raid as a whole was terrible. Mount Hyjal made no sense from a story perspective and was just 6 bosses that were poorly designed with waves of trash inbetween.\

This is also back during atttunments still, Classic attunements were easy mode, half the classic playerbase wouldn't step foot in BT as it required you to clear SSC/TK, not just.....touch an orb or kill a dragonkin in an easy 10man dng.

It was the first season of Arena so it was very poorly balanced and glitchy. Unless you were a Warrior/Rogue/Druid.

The only good thing in TBC is the fact there was what....16 Dngs or something that had a heroic mode, so at max level there was still something to do, you didn't hit 60 and farm UBRS for shoulders everyday all day, you had actual options.

Dailies....we know everyone loves dailies right, well you had to actually do them in TBC.

1. Wrong. TBC was great, it was a more refined Vanilla which had more challenging content, thats why people love it.
2. You think TBC raiding is terrible because of Mount Hyjal?, is that the best you have? LMFAO
3. Attunements too hard? LMFAO then BT is too hard, all the attunements in TBC are natural progression of the content difficulty, get good kid.
4. Dalies were an INCREDIBLY SMALL part of TBC until the Isle of Quel'Danas and even then, those dalies were a 30 minute thing on an island that had a server wide project and enabled some great wpvp action.

You retailers need to F.O.A.D with your fake news, fucking zoomers ruining everything.

[Black Goat]

Of course it does. If you can get away easier with flying than you can without, the only thing it can possibly do is diminish. You can infer plenty from basic logic of mechanics.

At best, it didn't diminish it much and there's nobody that chose to fly above people to avoid them when they would've had to engage with a ground mount.

Of course, we both know that's a ridiculous claim and realistically pointless to even consider. But this is the internet, so using the very ends of the bell curve as the main argument is standard.

You fail to provide anything more than an anecdotal example of why you believe the flying skill diminished WPVP. *yawn*

The rest of your post is just fluff.

[Mozu]

You fail to provide anything more than an anecdotal example of why you believe the flying skill diminished WPVP. *yawn*

The rest of your post is just fluff.

Maybe you should re-read the post then and maybe look up the definitions of some of the words to help you understand the concepts you failed to grasp. *yawn*

[Black Goat]

Maybe you should re-read the post then and maybe look up the definitions of some of the words to help you understand the concepts you failed to grasp. *yawn*

You're just another one of those "your opinion is wrong, my opinion is right" type of folks. When you present data instead of nonsense, like I suggested, maybe then we could have a discussion like adults. If you mean to imply my understanding of English is inferior to yours with your immature retort, I suggest you re-read my post where I mentioned the word "data".

Might want to put some gauze on those burns. They'll get infected.

[CostinR]

Vanilla certainly did a number of things that BC didn't handle too well.

However it wasn't the BS you're spouting about raiding. BC contained some of the most memorable zones in the history of the game. It had both quantity and quality of 5 man dungeons ( seriously BC has the largest number of 5 mans of ANY period in the history of the entire game ) and most importantly you had enough content overall between zones, quests, 5 mans, 5 man heroics, reputations, dungeons and pvp, that you could do for long stretches of time without being bored.

Currently most of the relevant classic content, even if you aren't a zerg rusher, can be done in roughly 1 month, 2 at most. That's leveling, gearing, leveling professions, doing all the questing zones, clearing the current raid content, clearing every 5 man etc.

For BC, which I've played at the first of this year for about 7 months, it can easily take you 3-4 months to do the same and that is NOT counting the raiding content. The reason behind is that BC has a lot of content front ended. So the vast majority of the expansion was there from the start with the exception of some daily questing zones and 4 raids.

[Varjo410]

People claiming there was no world pvp (because of flying) clearly never played during tbc. There were always battles for the objectives going on, especially Halaa, even I was doing them regularly and I don't care about pvp at all.

[Mozu]

You're just another one of those "your opinion is wrong, my opinion is right" type of folks. When you present data instead of nonsense, like I suggested, maybe then we could have a discussion like adults. If you mean to imply my understanding of English is inferior to yours with your immature retort, I suggest you re-read my post where I mentioned the word "data". Perhaps that concept is lost on you?

Might want to put some gauze on those burns. They'll get infected.

Sure, let me just hack into Blizzard databases and extract the data (that you also fail to provide for your own claims, which conveniently doesn't matter to you) for you bud. Alternatively, we can focus on inferring data based on mechanical concepts. As I said in my post. Which you, for some reason, cannot understand.

[Exkrementor]

Are you suggesting that the wpvp you saw would've been the same or less without flying? What a ridiculous claim.

With the addition of BGs people didnt care anymore about world PvP. Understandably because world PvP is garbage and Battlegrounds are fun.

[SirCowdog]

Arenas don't exist in classic, and battlegrounds will definitely lower wPvp, but not by as much as you think.

Ganking is part of world pvp. I've had to call my guildmates when someone was ganking me, and it has led to hour-long battles in STV. Imagine the horror of that!!!!

I'm sorry that you feel it would make for a better game that instead of socializing with my guild for cool pvp battles that I can't escape I should just fly away on my merry way and avoid it all together. Perhaps PvE servers are more your speed?

/facepalm

I spent the first 5 years of wow on a PVP server. Been there, done that. I had my fair share of WPVP encounters, both with flying and without.

You've cited a handful of instances where your friwnds/guildies came to your aid as though that's what always happens. It doesn't always go down that way. But let's say for the sake of argument that 100% of the time you gank or someone else ganks, an "hours long" fight is the result.

That's still NOTHING compared to days long battles in a single AV match. Not to mention the constant rotation of AB, WSG, and arena matches.

Are you seriously going to try and argue that the handful of times someone gets away from you, specifically because of a flying mount, that it's taking as much or more people out of WPVP than all of those BGs combined?

I'm sorry, but there's no possible way that adds up. You are just being angry at the wrong thing.

[Charge me Doctor]

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

Farming spots with elementals usually had those "/wave; look at me i'm just farming mats", then 15 minutes later when mobs become scarce "KILL THAT WARLOCK SHAMAN HE IS KILLING MY ELEMENTAL, YES WAIT FOR HIM TO PULL MORE, YES, NOW KILL, KILL!" bullshit, that stopped any reasonable farm fo dozens of minutes, then everything was back to normal.


On a topic of dailies - dailies aren't good, considering how they've been made in wow, missing one daily quest sets you up into unrecoverable disadvantage. Compare that to "mindless farming of mobs" when you can chose to find a spot and time where location is uncontested and farm your soul away for 8 hours straight, because you can, then stop doing that for a whole week, instead of spending an hour+ on doing dailies every day like it's some sort of fucking job, except you aren't getting paid. You aren't getting any rewards either besides progressing a bar, that'll eventually give you a piece of gear, access to a spot where to farm a piece of gear, and profession recipe. Then you do the same thing 5 times more and you're done. Great mechanic.

[Black Goat]

Sure, let me just hack into Blizzard databases and extract the data (that you also fail to provide for your own claims, which conveniently doesn't matter to you) for you bud. Alternatively, we can focus on inferring data based on mechanical concepts. As I said in my post. Which you, for some reason, cannot understand.

I never made claims about WPVP being affected by flying positively or negatively. Show me where I did. The burden is not on me to provide substantiating evidence. I witnessed you saying this:

I love this argument. It's kinda like saying "since it's cold outside, global warming is clearly fake!"

Just because you saw world pvp happen with flying does not mean flying didn't severely diminish the amount that would've happened without flying. It would've been 10-fold whatever you experienced.

At that point I suggested you provide data, since you're attacking another person's perspective. And how did you reply? See this:

Of course it does. If you can get away easier with flying than you can without, the only thing it can possibly do is diminish. You can infer plenty from basic logic of mechanics.

By merely providing a flaky, extremely weak example of how you believe it diminished WPVP because you can "get away easier". You pretend that flying didn't even make it more accessible to those who participate? Please. The point is clearly over your head. None of us can provide data. It's a moot point. Millions upon millions of people play World of Warcraft, yet you feel arrogant enough to assert that the singular aspect of being able to fly away is enough to substantiate your claim that it diminished WPVP? I'm not so foolish to think my perspective is the rule, unlike you. My realm, the players I've encountered, and the battles I've participated in are a mere speck in the grand scheme.

How quickly you forget that "if it's cold outside, global warming MUST be a lie".

[Mozu]

/facepalm

I spent the first 5 years of wow on a PVP server. Been there, done that. I had my fair share of WPVP encounters, both with flying and without.

You've cited a handful of instances where your friwnds/guildies came to your aid as though that's what always happens. It doesn't always go down that way. But let's say for the sake of argument that 100% of the time you gank or someone else ganks, an "hours long" fight is the result.

That's still NOTHING compared to days long battles in a single AV match. Not to mention the constant rotation of AB, WSG, and arena matches.

Are you seriously going to try and argue that the handful of times someone gets away from you, specifically because of a flying mount, that it's taking as much or more people out of WPVP than all of those BGs combined?

I'm sorry, but there's no possible way that adds up. You are just being angry at the wrong thing.

Where, in any of my posts, did I claim flying was the sole reason wpvp is lacking? Yes, Blizzard made this game so you don't actually even need to go into the world anymore once you hit max level due to queues for everything. What exactly is your point?

The few times you're required to go into the world, it should be dangerous (on a pvp server). With flying, it is not. Without flying, it is. Not a hard concept.

"Other things made wpvp less so why not make it even WORSE with flying???" is not a good argument.

By merely providing a flaky, extremely weak example of how you believe it diminished WPVP because you can "get away easier". You pretend that flying didn't even make it more accessible to those who participate? Please. The point is clearly over your head. None of us can provide data. It's a moot point. Millions upon millions of people play World of Warcraft, yet you feel arrogant enough to assert that the singular aspect of being able to fly away is enough to substantiate your claim that it diminished WPVP? You're really going to have to try harder than that.

That substantiates my claim completely, sorry bud. You're going to have to try harder than tossing silly insults my way as an argument.

[Charge me Doctor]

You know nothing of TBC
Yes it did destroy you are wrong.
And the proof is the AMAZING times we had when isle of quel`danas patch was released, people were creating gank guilds and putting out hit squads on x players.

You probably are a fan of modern warmode "pvp quest farm" raids aren't you?