[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[steristumpie]

Personally I don’t see anything more conservative than staying part of the Roman Republic 2.0. Actually more Roman Empire which was more expansive and culturally inclusive. I think the EU has been marketed very incorrectly. Especially now with the formation of the EU army and the Lisbon Treaty.

SPQR you filthy Celtic devil tribes

[Jessicka]

France is the major player pushing for a EU defense force and more military cooperation than NATO offers. You've got your perspective backwards. Read the news outside England, otherwise you'll continue to be on the wrong track.

That's different from an EU army.

Furthermore, you keep telling me to read the news outside England, and it's clear no-deal will not be made to be the EU's decision, yet you keep on this wild track that the EU will kick us out with no deal. It is in fact, the UK's press that keep making out that this is the threat from the EU.

[Slant]

We'll just disagree again then. The french constitution is 40 pages of guiding principles and core values for the nation. The German one is 50 pages long. The US constitution is about the same.
The EU is 500 pages long, and includes provisions on social protection, tourism, border checks and more fun stuff.
I understand the text was needed, but it should not have been called a constitution, and never have been put up for a public vote.

500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

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It is more nuanced than that. Macron does want an EU defense force and further integration, but only after the EU finds a concrete way to deal with issues like Poland effectively criminalizing sex education and constantly attacking its judiciary. It's the same reason he vetoed Balkan expansion; they do not want to attempt any further investment in the EU project until there are means to censure states that go against European values.

That was not entirely my point. My point was that Jessicke obviously has no clue whatsoever and shouldn't post shit she doesn't know about.

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That's different from an EU army.

Furthermore, you keep telling me to read the news outside England, and it's clear no-deal will not be made to be the EU's decision, yet you keep on this wild track that the EU will kick us out with no deal. It is in fact, the UK's press that keep making out that this is the threat from the EU.

No, an EU defense force is not an EU army... what? Are you smoking bad weed or something? We don't care what the British press says. Nobody will kick the UK out. The UK is leaving, has been leaving for 3 years now. Will have been leaving? I don't know the grammar for something that should be done in an instant but takes 3 fucking years...

Anyway, UK not being kicked, UK leaving because UK decided to. EU not letting UK squat and throw feces at EU anymore. Got it?

[Gorsameth]

So, in a further attempt to get his own deal to fail Boris has now set a very aggressive timetable of 3 days to get everything through?
Afraid people will actually read it and have second thoughts?
Considering the very slim margins these votes are working around I can't see how Boris legit thinks this is helpful.

I fully expect the second reading to be voted down today.

[dribbles]

I dunno, a few countries have pretty based leaders who don't worship the almighty dollar. Plus it'd be pretty trivial for BoJo to, say, bribe Orban to veto it and then cut tariffs to particular goods that just so happen to be made in Hungary .

Great Idea. How about we crowdfund it instead to keep Boris squeaky clean? Every brexiteer puts a pound in the pot we'd have 25 million quid by the weekend for the back pocket of an EU leader willing to veto...

So, in a further attempt to get his own deal to fail Boris has now set a very aggressive timetable of 3 days to get everything through?
Afraid people will actually read it and have second thoughts?
Considering the very slim margins these votes are working around I can't see how Boris legit thinks this is helpful.

I fully expect the second reading to be voted down today.

Bring on that General Election, in a new parliament those slim margins won't be slim anymore. Polls are beginning to come in after last Saturday.

Latest Westminster voting intention (20-21 Oct) yougov

Con - 37%
Lab - 22%
Lib Dem - 19%
Brexit Party - 11%
Green - 7%
Other - 5%

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/11...850324480?s=09

I hope those remainer MP's keep voting Boris down, they can't hide from the will of the people forever...

Isn't it just going to get amended further? I've been hearing about amending a customs union in, which is inane since you cannot just change a deal at such a fundamental level without actually consulting the other party but what did the UK Parliament care anyway. . .

Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.

[Jessicka]

Isn't it just going to get amended further? I've been hearing about amending a customs union in, which is inane since you cannot just change a deal at such a fundamental level without actually consulting the other party but what did the UK Parliament care anyway. . .

Yeah. It's to force the government to withdraw the bill. It likely won't go through, but if it did it would actually show there is a parliamentary majority for that and that is what it would take to get a deal through parliament.

The more realistic amendment is for the final say referendum which is also being tabled.

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500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

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That was not entirely my point. My point was that Jessicke obviously has no clue whatsoever and shouldn't post shit she doesn't know about.

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No, an EU defense force is not an EU army... what? Are you smoking bad weed or something? We don't care what the British press says. Nobody will kick the UK out. The UK is leaving, has been leaving for 3 years now. Will have been leaving? I don't know the grammar for something that should be done in an instant but takes 3 fucking years...

Anyway, UK not being kicked, UK leaving because UK decided to. EU not letting UK squat and throw feces at EU anymore. Got it?

As I understood, the defence force was supposed to be a small 'rapid reaction' setup, it wouldn't supercede national forces. It certainly wouldn't be an EU Army.

[Teleros]

Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.

Yup. The Torygraph says Labour is expected to abstain during the 2nd reading tonight, but frankly who knows what will happen. I'm still hoping the new agreement gets shot down & we get a clean Brexit on the 31st, but we'll see.

[Jessicka]

Boris will pull the deal in that event and go for a GE which chicken Corbyn will refuse. Round and round we go messing the EU about exposing them for the impotent fools they are. Delicious.

If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.

[Teleros]

If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.

He's legally obliged to ask for an extension, per the Surrender Act. Bit of a difference between voluntarily and involuntarily asking for one, no?

That said, an extension, though IMHO likely, is not certain by any means.

[Gorsameth]

UK lawmaker sets out plan to stop no-deal Brexit in December 2020

Please let it end before it comes to that . . .

This is a very real possibility. Even if Boris's deal is accept this isn't the end of it, this is just the start of the real negotiations, there will be a transition period until 2020 during which the UK and EU would hash out a trade deal, the current deal's being discussed are not a trade deal, just a decision on how to split.
If the deal wouldn't be done by the end of 2020 the UK could still have a hard exit on WTO terms, and negotiating a trade deal in a little over a year is a VERY tough ask, these things can normally take a decade to sort out.
There is a very real fear among certain MP's that Boris would use this to still get the hard brexit that he seems to want to much.

[Demolitia]

500 pages? Where did you get this? The Lisbon treaty is practically word for word the constitution. They just removed the word constitution from it. That's the only trick they pulled.

my bad sorry, the 500 pages were including the protocols and signatures and useless blabla, so you can trim it down to 200 or so, but it's still a chunky document that covers much more than you usually see in other constitutions.
https://europa.eu/european-union/sit..._europe_en.pdf

It was ambitious and necessary, which is why they passed it as a Treaty when France and the Netherlands rejected it, but you can't really expect people to read something like that and cast an informed vote.

[Jessicka]

And yet he is still far more likely to win the election.

He would have to campaign a GE on his Brexit deal.

And he might get the largest party, but by no means is he guaranteed anything close to a majority.

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He's legally obliged to ask for an extension, per the Surrender Act. Bit of a difference between voluntarily and involuntarily asking for one, no?

That said, an extension, though IMHO likely, is not certain by any means.

Irrelevant really. There’s now plenty of time for a GE, if he’s forced to pull the deal he can put his money where his mouth is and ask for a GE he was so desperate for a couple of weeks ago. There’s no reason for the opposition not to take it, he’s out of road for his posturing.

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So Government confirm they'll pull the bill if the timetable motion is defeated, and EU grant the extension; which is basically assured because we'd then need it. Looks like they want a general election.

[dribbles]

If he pulls the deal, we got the extension, General Election is go. Who won that particular game of chicken. Boris even lied about preferring to be dead in a gutter than ask for the extension.

You think chicken Corbyn will go for it this time? Boris can't have one without the chickens agreement, this extension is Corbyns fault. Meanwhile up and up Boris soars in the polls, such is the will of the people...

British people don't like chickens.

[Pann]

Something is wrong... very wrong

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/s...265352704?s=20

[Jessicka]

You think chicken Corbyn will go for it this time? Boris can't have one without the chickens agreement, this extension is Corbyns fault. Meanwhile up and up Boris soars in the polls, such is the will of the people...

British people don't like chickens.

Yes, I absolutely think he'll go for it, I'm actually surprised Boris will now that there's a risk of it happening.

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Something is wrong... very wrong

https://twitter.com/campbellclaret/s...265352704?s=20

And Boris will have to campaign a GE on a deal even Brexit Fuhrer Farage thinks is unacceptable...

[dribbles]

Yes, I absolutely think he'll go for it, I'm actually surprised Boris will now that there's a risk of it happening.

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And Boris will have to campaign a GE on a deal even Brexit Fuhrer Farage thinks is unacceptable...

Not at all, this compromise by brexiteers for the remainers messy deal is off the table after a Tory landslide.

A general election will bring a cleaner brexit more quickly than the deal on offer now.

Let's see which way the Corbyn hen clucks later on today, fingers X he lays that golden egg gift to brexiteers like me and we get that GE immediately. I wouldn't bet he has the backbone to do it though...

[Jessicka]

Not at all, this compromise by brexiteers for the remainers messy deal is off the table after a Tory landslide.

A general election will bring a cleaner brexit more quickly than the deal on offer now.

Let's see which way the Corbyn hen clucks later on today, fingers X he lays that golden egg gift to brexiteers like me and we get that GE immediately. I wouldn't bet he has the backbone to do it though...

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

[Gorsameth]

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

Boris can just ignore his own deal and push through a hard Brexit if he has enough votes after a new GE.

Or he goes for the 'I compromised on this deal to please Labour and they said no so if I get a majority I will get an even better deal!' And while the likes of dribbles will eat that up, the rest of the country probably won't.

[Xarkan]

How can Boris possibly campaign a GE on anything other than his deal? If he gives it up, he admits Parliament was right to ditch it. That doesn’t fit his people vs Parliament narrative.

When was truth part of Boris Windhairs stick?

[Pann]

Is this what it has come to?

'Getting seriously worried that HMG will pull Bill if Programme Motion is defeated. Surely best for all of us who regard this deal as the least of the evils to vote for the Programme Motion, whatever we really think of it.'

https://twitter.com/oletwinofficial/...59454118514690

Don't worry that the bill might be shit - vote for it anyway!