Classic Loot Etiquette - Have a question

[Gorgodeus]

5 people in a group, 1 druid healer. Healing leather pants drop, upgrade for the druid. 3 rolled greed, druid needed, warrior tank needed.

If that's not ninjaing in you're world, I hope I never have the pleasure of raiding with you.

I mean don't get me wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if its wrong.

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So greed is your validation? And you wonder why people are arguing with you ?

We are talking about BoEs, not BoPs. Sorry, but the hell with that BS. Most of the time, the shit will end up on the AH by the druid who "needed" it.

[Charge me Doctor]

Thats a dangerous argument to make

When Hand of Justice drops and the healer needs because they "put forth the same effort to get it to drop", a shitstorm would ensue (and quite rightly). Ergo, don't make this argument when talking about loot it just opens the door to even more awful behaviour :P

You are comparing 1g from selling that bis trinket that may give you like 10 candles for mass buffing to 600g from selling boe and buying your bis item, it's not the same

[AeneasBK]

You are comparing 1g from selling that bis trinket that may give you like 10 candles for mass buffing to 600g from selling boe and buying your bis item, it's not the same

NO it is not, obviously. But making the argument about "effort required to make the thing drop" doesn't take that into account which is why I said "quite rightly" about the shitstorm, and that it was a bad argument to make in the whole "how should you roll/etiquette" discussion.

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So greed is your validation? And you wonder why people are arguing with you ?

It's not really a discussion, its mostly just people who can accept that they have a threshold over which their greed overules the standard expected behaviour, and people who refuse to admit it, and throw semantic arguments under the bus in an attempt to validate themselves.

If that weren't true, everyone would need roll on every item that drops all the time and that would be the standard. But it isn't because when some crabby green "Of the wolf" item drops and the hunter needs everyone else doesn't care because the value of the item is under that threshold.

[Charge me Doctor]

5 people in a group, 1 druid healer. Healing leather pants drop, upgrade for the druid. 3 rolled greed, druid needed, warrior tank needed.

If that's not ninjaing in you're world, I hope I never have the pleasure of raiding with you.

I mean don't get me wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if its wrong.

It only means that 3 of those dudes don't need gold, since they virtually passed on that item without a good reason. Unless it was well communicated that this druid has dibs on boe then it wasn't ninjaing

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NO it is not, obviously. But making the argument about "effort required to make the thing drop" doesn't take that into account which is why I said "quite rightly" about the shitstorm, and that it was a bad argument to make in the whole "how should you roll/etiquette" discussion.

I think that some people has this weird concept about boe items that they are... you know, just items. Boe piece is basically an item token for another boe that you may want. For fucks sake, you can mail it to your guildmate, or an alt. Boe pieces are way more than just an item that you'd otherwise sell for minuscule amount of gold.

I mean, if i for some inexplicable reason would end up in a DM pug and this book dropped - i would instantly sold it to get recipe and reagents to BiS crafted robe. But in reality this book would go straight to my guild warrior, who then would ran me through BRS for me to get that recipe anyways... so it's still an investment.

[AeneasBK]

I think that some people has this weird concept about boe items that they are... you know, just items. Boe piece is basically an item token for another boe that you may want. For fucks sake, you can mail it to your guildmate, or an alt. Boe pieces are way more than just an item that you'd otherwise sell for minuscule amount of gold

I'm not sure you've read the argument I was making because you're basically agreeing with me every quote. Or it seems that way

[Notdev]

Thats a dangerous argument to make

When Hand of Justice drops and the healer needs because they "put forth the same effort to get it to drop", a shitstorm would ensue (and quite rightly). Ergo, don't make this argument when talking about loot it just opens the door to even more awful behaviour :P

Perhaps the statement on its own can be twisted, but in contest with the rest of what I'm saying, it can't be.

[lummiuster]

I have been wondering about what is considered normal loot etiquette in PUGs in Classic. So far I have seen the random BOE epic go the way of All NEED, All Greed, and of course the All Greed (wait till all 4 greed, then Ninja Need). Obviously 3 is not ok.

My circumstance is one of my own making where I still came out in the end. DM North Run and Quel'Serrar book drops. I instantly hit greed on reflex, everyone else hesitated and discussion started about everyone rolling Need. I was ass out as I had already greeded, however before the loot was assigned (main tank held his roll for last) the rest of group decided that I should be able to roll and take item if i beat them all.

Tank lost roll to a rogue and then i hit a greed roll and beat everyone. Without skipping a beat, the rogue opened trade and gave it to me. At this point the tank accuses the rogue of ninja'ing the epic because it was not for his class. Everyone disagreed with the tank as no loot rules were specified prior to the run starting AKA book on reserve.

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I have lost a few epic boe's to tanks and non casters due to the mindset that all BOE's = need. Is this considered normal for classic, as I am only familiar for what is generally agreed upon for my server.

Thoughts or opinions?

You should always need on epic unless if specified. You got lucky the rogue gave the item to you. I would have kept it or asked you to roll higher than the roll that made me win against the others. If the item would be worth a lot and you'd be in a pug, I would have never gave it even if you won.
Gotta use your brain in these scenarios, dont be naive man. Always need, if everyone else greed then you can ask everyone to roll for a fair chance. This way your ass is always backed.

[sibut]

I always roll need on boe epics regardless of what anyone else rolls. I'm not going to pass up on easy gold.

Yep same. I'm not going to pass on anything from 50g to (in the case of Foror's) 1k+ just so that someone can have an upgrade that they might (or likely will) put on the AH anyway. I always roll need.

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Quel sellar is a warrior and paladin tanking mainhand. The warrior needed it and u all greeded for the money. Imagine people rolling need on warglaives of azzinoth because they want the vendor money. Thats what u did.

Might as well roll need on every 2h weapon from now on as they are ez money aswell.

Not the same thing at all; glaives weren't BOE epics and the scale isn't close at all. Cute false equivalency, though.

[Charge me Doctor]

I'm not sure you've read the argument I was making because you're basically agreeing with me every quote. Or it seems that way

I wasn't disagreeing with you in general, i just don't think that "put forth the same effort to get it to drop" is a bad argument. It's all about value, and off course in a pug value is skewered towards myself (as in "i'm not going to pass on that BoE item, because there is another guy who would benefit from it", or "i'm not going to pass on ironfoe, because there is another warrior in my group and his weapon is slightly worse"), but you'd pass on that item if you were in a guild run, because chances are that this guy who'll get that upgrade would stick around for next month or so.

Sure, that healer who'd roll on a BoP trinket has his right to roll on it - but why would he? (besides acting like an ass) It benefits him as much as a bunch of gray quality furs, if this imaginary person feels this way he may just call dibs on all shitty gray items that drop all the time.

[Notdev]

5 people in a group, 1 druid healer. Healing leather pants drop, upgrade for the druid. 3 rolled greed, druid needed, warrior tank needed.

If that's not ninjaing in you're world, I hope I never have the pleasure of raiding with you.

I mean don't get me wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion even if its wrong.

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So greed is your validation? And you wonder why people are arguing with you ?

Context matters
I agree the Warrior was in the wrong there. The stance needs to be made clear beforehand. Or the least the Warrior can do is say "sorry for needing, but I believe we are all entitled to the BoE just as much as the Druid healer." and give it to the person who rolled highest.

[sibut]

Anybody who needs on an Epic BoE just to sell, while somebody else in the grp needs because they want to use it (and said item is actually good for them), is getting instantly kicked, ignored, and put on every single blacklist/KoS list I have any kind of influence over.

I'm not too worried about getting blacklisted by people who would get butthurt if everyone need rolled on boe epics that drop. We clearly don't share the same dungeoning/loot ideology so it wouldn't be a loss to myself or them.

[Notdev]

NO it is not, obviously. But making the argument about "effort required to make the thing drop" doesn't take that into account which is why I said "quite rightly" about the shitstorm, and that it was a bad argument to make in the whole "how should you roll/etiquette" discussion.

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It's not really a discussion, its mostly just people who can accept that they have a threshold over which their greed overules the standard expected behaviour, and people who refuse to admit it, and throw semantic arguments under the bus in an attempt to validate themselves.

If that weren't true, everyone would need roll on every item that drops all the time and that would be the standard. But it isn't because when some crabby green "Of the wolf" item drops and the hunter needs everyone else doesn't care because the value of the item is under that threshold.

It should be the standard.
I asked in my servers LFG chat, and they mostly agreed. Reddit also agrees, especially mostly in response to that ninja from Asmon's guild.
Its the fairest practice, a guaranteed anti-ninja practice, and guaranteed to not favor those who need under the guise of needing it and then turn around and sell it.

[AeneasBK]

Sure, that healer who'd roll on a BoP trinket has his right to roll on it - but why would he? (besides acting like an ass) It benefits him as much as a bunch of gray quality furs, if this imaginary person feels this way he may just call dibs on all shitty gray items that drop all the time.

Well, if people start using the argument that "they put the same effort in to get X therefore they have equal right to it" then *That* would be why they would. Which is why its a terrible argument to use in a discussion about who should get what loot. I don't know that I could put it any clearer, so not sure why you still feel it isn't a bad argument, because you kinda rule it out as reasoning immediately...

[Dacien]

We are talking about BoEs, not BoPs. Sorry, but the hell with that BS. Most of the time, the shit will end up on the AH by the druid who "needed" it.

I do remember Amulet of Cainwyn dropped in Strat live and the hunter insta-needed, and the paladin said, "Hey, I really need that!" So I needed too with the intention of trading to the pally (I genuinely believed they were going to equip it over their green neck). Pally won the roll anyway.

Fast forward after a wipe and the hunter links the pally green neck (pally never equipped the BoE), and the pally flew into a rage, accusing the hunter of stalking, said they were carrying the group so count yourself lucky, and on and on.

I never looked, but there's no way they didn't sell it. I felt like a sucker

[AeneasBK]

It should be the standard.

Which goes back to my initial comment about it opening the door to even more terrible behaviour It's like the community saw the prisoners dilemma and regardless of being aware of it *STILL* decide to rat out the other guy.

[andrewjoy]

I don't get the ALL NEED on stuff that should be greed. Not only is just confusing, but what if someone needs it ?

Lets say a BiS blue drops in a 5 man and one person needs it and will use it right there. On the all NEED system that item can go to someone who will put it on the AH and the person who was going to use it will lose out.

It takes a level of trust to be sure and honestly in classic if you do dodgy shit your going to get a name for yourself, you cannot just hide like you can now.

[Notdev]

Which goes back to my initial comment about it opening the door to even more terrible behaviour

Like what? It removes the possibility of bad behavior like ninjaing and people claiming they need loot only to sell it. What bad behavior possibility does it open?

[sibut]

I don't get the ALL NEED on stuff that should be greed. Not only is just confusing, but what if someone needs it ?

Lets say a BiS blue drops in a 5 man and one person needs it and will use it right there. On the all NEED system that item can go to someone who will put it on the AH and the person who was going to use it will lose out.

It takes a level of trust to be sure and honestly in classic if you do dodgy shit your going to get a name for yourself, you cannot just hide like you can now.

Blues are much different than epics in that most of them aren't worth much. If one of the level 19 twink weapons drop they should be needed by everyone because they're worth gold on par with some epics and you'd have to be an idiot to equip it for 3-4 levels rather than cash in so everyone should have a shot. The only time it gets a *little* more dicey is when it comes to legit BIS items but even then I'm strongly in the "everyone should get a roll because Edgemaster's can be flipped into some of my BIS items" camp.

[Notdev]

I don't get the ALL NEED on stuff that should be greed. Not only is just confusing, but what if someone needs it ?

Lets say a BiS blue drops in a 5 man and one person needs it and will use it right there. On the all NEED system that item can go to someone who will put it on the AH and the person who was going to use it will lose out.

It takes a level of trust to be sure and honestly in classic if you do dodgy shit your going to get a name for yourself, you cannot just hide like you can now.

And what if the person who's claiming he can use it will turn around and sell it on the AH?
Force him to equip it? What if he already had one and quickly swapped out when he saw one dropped so he would be given another, so he could go and sell it on the AH?
How do you enforce this with books and patterns?
How do you make the decision when people are talking about OS loot? What if they claim the role they are in the instance in is their OS and they are only playing that OS for that particular dungeon?

All need solves all these problems. It is the simplest solution. You lost the roll on your BiS item? Well you might win someone else's BiS item later and you can sell it and buy your BiS item!

Edit: I also think people are overstating the effect blacklisting has. A wide majority of people never read chat unless they are actively searching for a group. Also people who are in big raiding guilds might not care if someone attempts to blacklist them for a variety of reasons.

[Charge me Doctor]

Well, if people start using the argument that "they put the same effort in to get X therefore they have equal right to it" then *That* would be why they would. Which is why its a terrible argument to use in a discussion about who should get what loot. I don't know that I could put it any clearer, so not sure why you still feel it isn't a bad argument, because you kinda rule it out as reasoning immediately...

Having a right to an item is basically a roll window popping up and giving you a choice which roll you are going to make, everyone who participated in a dungeon has a right to roll on an item, nothing stops you from rolling need on it but yourself, that's the whole point. A discussion about who should get what loot rarely happens in a pug anyways.

Having a right to an item doesn't mean that it automatically belongs to you, it's just gives you an option to make a decision - do you think that you need those 1g from selling that blue item? The right answer is "no", because this 1g is barely worth getting kicked out of a dungeon, you'll get this 1g on next pack of mobs most likely. So, if you feel like rolling need on an item you don't need - go for it, but don't be surprised when you'll have to look for another group, losing hours of your gametime for just 1g.

Basically what i mean that any party member has a right for any item dropped in a dungeon, it's up to them if they want to end their run right here and right now by doing something stupid like rolling on a bis item of another class just to piss them off. I don't mean that you should roll on BiS BoPs of other classes because you feel like you need this 1-5g from vendoring it, if you really that short on cash you just ask people to dump their trash into you, it'll give you much more gold for that run than getting kicked out of dungeon right away.
That's why we had this "disenchant" option back in wotlk - because people started needing on literally everything in random dungeons; and later some roles has lost their right to roll on items they can't use (which kinda makes sense to me, but sadly it's not implemented in game, and following that logic eventually leads us to "personal loot" conclusion which many players don't like for some reason)

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Edit: I also think people are overstating the effect blacklisting has. A wide majority of people never read chat unless they are actively searching for a group. Also people who are in big raiding guilds might not care if someone attempts to blacklist them for a variety of reasons.

I was allegedly blacklisted by a "whole guild" on my server for winning a +1hit +spd waist in BRD from a warlock. Later that night i was in 3 more BRD runs with people rfom that guild. I asked about that warlock and they've told me that it's a cesspool guild that mirrors /world chat and nobody cares about him. Damn, those "i'll blacklist you" are more pathetic than players in FPS games who yell that they'll "ban you" for outplaying them or taking "their spot"