I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[Zka]

BC and LK were the last expansions where most things were fine. PVE was somewhat interesting, specs were more-or-less balanced and well rounded, itemization mostly made sense, there were catch ups, but not too many. You didn't need to farm your ass off for consumables, but consumables and enchants mattered a lot. Assembling a dungeon group didn't take 30 minutes. I could go on but these are the most important things. So yeah, give us BC/LK. PVP sucked? No idea, I never cared about that. Play something else if you need better PVP. For PVE, these expansions were the golden age for most players. Things went downhill afterwards.

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TBC was the best expansion, sure, but that is mostly because the game held on to some of its vanilla roots. It was still a massive downgrade that hurt the future of the game in unfortunate ways.

I can't really name anything in BC that was a downgrade compared to Vanilla. BC was a perfected version of Vanilla. Sure, game features are a matter of taste, but still.

[sam86]

Strongly disagree about the world PvP. It was nothing at all.

The only place that had a pinch of PvP was Isle. Only because you couldn't fly.

it probably depend on server
because my server had also world pvp specially in nagrand, but terrokar ones didn't, it was crap design, capture towers they stay for 6 hours, most ppl even forget them by time they back
also the infamous world pvp was dead since bg introduction, yes some skirmish here and there but since i started playing after bg were introduced to wow (not before it) i don't remember a massive world pvp like for example what we had during MoP isle of giants launch

[Lurker1]

TBC is a VERY good PVE game and sucks at everything else. If raiding was the primary thing you did in WoW you usually loved it. Everything I say past here doesn't matter to you, because TBC might be the best raid/pve game ever made for a "raiding is all that matters" player. If PVE wasn't your primary focus, you can easily view it as highly overrated and point out that it started many of the systems and things that would eventually destroy WoW as we knew it.

Flying destroyed world pvp. Instantly. Nothing more to say about that.

Arena gear/arena led to the changes that destroyed Alterac Valley. ALL players gravitated towards the honor per minute idea to get the resilience gear they needed to start arena, instead of just having fun. Take the mentally ill repeat rank 14 grinders and give that mindset to ALL the players and that is what BG's became. Keep in mind that AV was cleverly designed to get pve players into pvp and that is ceased to exist as intended in TBC and the playerbase became very split with pvp and pve players. This got worse every expansion and now players who used to all be one big, awesome community are split into little groups.

Professions mean very little in pvp because world pvp is dead. Why bother. Rocketboots could be used if I remember right in arena, but could backfire. Hand enchants I think could be used to, but it really didn't matter. I hated arena and tried to block out every time I would get myself or someone else the 1850 weapon. The rest was a waste of time. I also usually played double dps because running around a pole for a long time was awful.

Arena becomes the barometer for everything, due to a dumb rating that autistic kids and streamers who helped ruin WoW, can brag about as they run around a pole with a healer in most comps (other than spriest, rogue, mage). Very few comps are viable and the pvp is awful and the makers of the original WoW said arena was a mistake.
engadget.com/2009/11/13/blizzard-arenas-were-a-mistake/[/url]

The better arena got, the more classes all became the same, which breaks and ruins larger forms of pvp and the "fun factor" and uniqueness of classes. The original designers knew this would happen. Fast forward and we now have unkillable healers when crosshealing happens in a BG or a 1 v 1 happens due to every class having to all have the same CC and chains. PvP outside of 3 v 3 is now GARBAGE. Healers HAVE to be OP in all other scenarios, just so a failed esport can continue.

Segregation of the playerbase happens for the first time with Arena and Heroics. This was not that big a problem in TBC because you only had heroic dungeons and one difficulty of raids. Now we have LFR, normal, heroic, mythic, mythic plus. It's just stupid.

Dailies start as a big thing in TBC. This is what happens when you break world pvp and segregate the playerbase to cater to the "eltiist jerks" (who now run WoW btw). You need dumbed down repeatable, zombie like content for the "casuals" or really nice people who weren't that great mechanically, who actually have very little to do in modern WoW. They eventually get bored/quit and all you are left with in the modern game is LFR/daily zombies who listen to streamers they are so bored and the 1 percent that no one could stand to be around in vanilla.

In vanilla these mechanically deficient players could be "carried" but no one said carried because people weren't all aholes and they could contribute big time to a guild through professions, farming, running 5 mans and gearing up offtanks and dps. They could also pvp with you, world pvp, have consumables that gave them an edge etc. Modern WoW literally separates you from people you grew up playing this game with and rewards you for abandoning them with progression. Vanilla never did that.

People claim vanilla was not casual friendly. That's complete BS. It had the most to do for casual players of any expansion. Everything took time, but you always had something to do.

TLDR. TBC introduced too many catch up systems, flying killed world pvp, arena killed classes being unique and broke all other forums of pvp except 3 v 3, segregation of pve content got out of control eventually and further led to class homogenization, it was the first implemenation of a group finder (no one used it), dailies replaced organic pvp and farming content, old world is now useless.

queueing systems ftw! feels great man!

[msdos]

I like TBC because it feels like a complete game and transition from vanilla, with the exception of them experimenting with PVP or whatever you wanna call that.

Playing classic is full of "what was this ??? intended to be" moments, from the wall of Gilneas, to the Uldum wall, to Hyjal, to Quel'thalas, to the horrible Blood Elf models, to stuff being half conceptualized in the trees (shamans were concept tanks, then they just left it in there and Warlocks were meant to be more of a support, but then they kinda shifted from that idea, as a couple examples), to weird itemization that never panned out.
Not all of it addressed in BC, but a lot of it.

What I didn't like about BC was the rampant attunement stacking: Okay get the key for Shat Halls, okay get the key for SSC, okay get attuned to Kara, okay get the key for S-Labs, okay get attuned to TK now. Please get attuned for Caverns of Time, please attune yourself to Black Temple.

By the time BT came out I was so god damn done grinding anything in WoW. The era of WotlK ended crazy ass grinds end favor of hardmodes, heroic and better achievements, but they bring them back later in Legion and BFA.

[kail]

Arena is for plebs you have no taste thanks for ruining tab targeting pvp brah

Had they added in a BG system with MMR, then we'd be talking. And not done this limited action BS where u can't use the items u farm int he world....

Terrible limited action set BS

All of you saying you love arena. Fuck you plebs

It's a balanced format for group v group PvP. Don't get mad at the format, it's on Blizzard to keep balances seperated between PvP and PvE. Duel tournaments have hit some popularity in Classic, arenas allow for more than 2 to be involved in a simple duel.

[Mukind]

It's a balanced format for group v group PvP. Don't get mad at the format, it's on Blizzard to keep balances seperated between PvP and PvE. Duel tournaments have hit some popularity in Classic, arenas allow for more than 2 to be involved in a simple duel.

No it's not

It REQUIRES balance

Deathmatch itself is not balanced, lol. No more or less than any symmetrical objective map anyway. And arena maps aren't necessarily even either

If anything it is the least balanced because it requires very small comps to be balanced. Which means the likelyhood of you entering a "balanced" arena that isn't just full of meta whores is low.

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Yeah, totally. Which is why there's a National Arena Championship circuit.

Arena takes far more skill than AB, WSG, AV, etc, ever hoped to. Objectives in Warcraft BGs are elementary if the people on your team have a modicum of common sense.



Wow, man. Look at you go, just crapping all over us "fake PVPers" that would literally destroy you 1v1. We have our cool titles and mounts, and yet here you are... crapping all over us while you guard Stables, huh? What a time to be alive.

EDIT: For the sake of fairness, I'm not saying Battlegrounds don't require skill. They certainly do.

lol brah AB is for plebs WSG is the only BG worth a damn. And while I do hate AB.....Lot better than arena

If you think Arena compares to WSG or fucking Huttball, the greatest tab targeting BG ever made. You crazy. If you never played huttball, i feel sorry for you.

"AB is a dogshit BG so we should move to deathmatch" lul wut?

How about make some better BG's...lol

Like a hutball clone

Don't be so offended brah, maybe you're a player. But if you know you suck at objective pvp...Probably not

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You seem to not get the point about having fun in BGs, where there is a power difference between the players.

It was actually fun to join a BG and then finding the strongest opponent on the sider and seeing him either completly smashing or getting grouped. It created a difference between matches, making some EoTS matches seem quite epic or as a fight. Im not saying, that it did not give some bad experiences, but man did it give experiences xD

Just because Arena was quite good, does not mean that BGs weren't good either. Games have worked fine without MMR for many years and it still does today in some areas.

The goal in the BG is to win via the objective dude

You could get crushed in mid in WSG and still win the game. lol

It's not fucking death match u pleb, if it comes down to a pure deathmatch....Poorly designed BG.

[Black Goat]

No it's not

It REQUIRES balance

Deathmatch itself is not balanced, lol. No more or less than any symmetrical objective map anyway. And arena maps aren't necessarily even either

If anything it is the least balanced because it requires very small comps to be balanced. Which means the likelyhood of you entering a "balanced" arena that isn't just full of meta whores is low.

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lol brah AB is for plebs WSG is the only BG worth a damn. And while I do hate AB.....Lot better than arena

If you think Arena compares to WSG or fucking Huttball, the greatest tab targeting BG ever made. You crazy. If you never played huttball, i feel sorry for you.

They are not meant to compare. 2v2 and 3v3 is vastly different from 10v10 with objectives. I do not think they compare, and I have no idea where you got that idea.

I just saw your "reeee'ing" about Arenas being shite, and I got really curious what your rating is. People who complain about arenas are generally the ones who can't break 1600 rating. Especially when they call it "cancer". That's usually the dead-giveaway.

For the record, your posts really come off as you talking to yourself. And wtf is "hutball"? Temple of Kotmogu?

[Mukind]

They are not meant to compare. 2v2 and 3v3 is vastly different from 10v10 with objectives. I do not think they compare, and I have no idea where you got that idea.

I just saw your "reeee'ing" about Arenas being shite, and I got really curious what your rating is. People who complain about arenas are generally the ones who can't break 1600 rating. Especially when they call it "cancer". That's usually the dead-giveaway.

For the record, your posts really come off as you talking to yourself. And wtf is "hutball"? Temple of Kotmogu?

Yea requires more homogeneity

It's bad on all fronts

Small scale skirmishes between random assortments of classes need to all be balanced? lol

And you fucks thought this was a good idea in this game/

Arena is for shitters and plebs. Which is why MMO's are so fucking despised by the rest of hte pvp gamer community

You are a dog. And have no idea what PvP is

[Black Goat]

Yea requires more homogeneity

It's bad on all fronts

Uh, sure. Whatever you say, pal.

[Mukind]

Uh, sure. Whatever you say, pal.

lol you make the point for me now that's your response? hahah

idiot

You derps whine about how your classes feel the same in retail? Well why the fuck do you think they feel the need to do that? lol

Cuz the plebs crave arena balance so they too can learn the flowchart hahaha

[Black Goat]

lol you make the point for me now that's your response? hahah

idiot

You derps whine about how your classes feel the same in retail? Well why the fuck do you think they need to do that? lol

Are you on drugs? Because I have no clue what you're even talking about. You're even laughing at your own sentences. Very peculiar.

[Mukind]

Are you on drugs? Because I have no clue what you're even talking about.

You're the only one whining and calling people names. Your insecurity is showing.

You have had two posts that have totally lacked substance. Is tehre going to be a third?

Or are you going to go back to trying to defend your pleb love of arena?

You're terrible, you should be ashamed of your love of arena. Shut up

You are the fucking problem with retail pvp. Be quiet and sit in your corner. Let your betters talk

hahah

Arena is bad, TBC was fucking terrible for PvP. Anyone who disagrees should read this then realize they're fucking terrible and shoudln't comment.

[Black Goat]

You have had two posts that have totally lacked substance. Is tehre going to be a third?

Or are you going to go back to trying to defend your pleb love of arena?

You're terrible, you should be ashamed of your love of arena. Shut up

You are the fucking problem with retail pvp. Be quiet and sit in your corner. Let your betters talk

hahah

Arena is bad, TBC was fucking terrible for PvP. Anyone who disagrees should read this then realize they're fucking terrible and shoudln't comment.

Nah, I think you're just bad and you're salty about it.

/ignore

[Mukind]

Nah, I think you're just bad and you're salty about it.

/ignore

lol i'm bad at what? Arena?

I didn't play TBC brah or any expansions past that. Death match is just for plebs, like you. lol

I suspect being a fan of HoT healing I'd do pretty well.

[Will]

PVE was and still is the only thing that matters.

Ok fine, put the blinkers on and continue telling yourself that nonsense. I tell you that some people don't care about PvE and for those people, PvP/arena rank is what matters, but hey, let's just totally ignore the arguments other people make and densely repeat the same mantra, eh? The way you play the game, the aspects of the game that matter to you, must therefore be what matters to every other player, right?

Intelligence at its finest...

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You have had two posts that have totally lacked substance. Is tehre going to be a third?

Or are you going to go back to trying to defend your pleb love of arena?

You're terrible, you should be ashamed of your love of arena. Shut up

You are the fucking problem with retail pvp. Be quiet and sit in your corner. Let your betters talk

hahah

Arena is bad, TBC was fucking terrible for PvP. Anyone who disagrees should read this then realize they're fucking terrible and shoudln't comment.

It's really as simple as this:
Some people liked PvP more in TBC than Vanilla.
Some people liked PvP more in Vanilla than TBC.

It's simply put, a matter of opinion.

Personally I hated the Vanilla PvP ranking system, I felt indifferent about resilience, quite enjoyed Arena even though I rarely played it, and at least enjoyed the extra choice, and I felt more classes felt viable in TBC PvP. I had heaps of fun on my Arms warrior, and enjoyed TBC PvP more than any other point in my WoW career, except maybe WotLK.

I understand that the difference between fact and opinion is extremely blurry to you people. The majority of people are purely arrogant and cannot possibly imagine in their brains this mind blowing concept that other people prefer different things to themselves.

But hey, go ahead and keep passing your opinion off as some kind of fact, and treat others stupid for having their own personal reasons why they don't agree... Your last statement is basically like a child putting their fingers in their ears and going "naa na na naa na, I don't wanna hear you argue with me!"

Why do people on this forum have such difficulty understanding that other people can have opinions of their own? 90% of the threads here are just people acting like their opinions are ancient facts and trying to force feed / insult upon anyone who disagrees. Is it like, a general lack of empathy and social skills among video gamers or something? Too much time spent in a dark basement means people don't know how other human beings work anymore?

[Merin]

I never cared for classic much. To me it was a very large step down from other existing MMOs. It didn't have the world building or functionality of Ultima, didn't have the PvP like DAoC and the PvE never felt more than gutted EQ. It was a massively watered down experience for casuals, little else. It was the game for the tots who refused to communicate or forge a community, who absolutely needed solo content and to be wrangled into instances.

It's always funny to watch people sing accolades of classic over things that WoW was trying to kill from day one.

TBC is where an actual game and identity was forged, as far as I am concerned, same evils but at least they now had game design behind them. I still like a lot about TBC that I can actually quantify beyond "I done growed up wid it". I'd love to return to that era of class design most of all, where you started to have polished kits formed around actual identities.

[Rigald]

Just stop playing if they drop TBC, you hate it so much don't put that on yourself (and stop creating the same topics every 3 weeks to stir it)

[shaunika123]

#notaste

#deathmatchmatchisterrible

#wtfpeople

no, I just main a rogue which means big scale pvp is absolutely unenjoyable for me.

I like Wpvp duels and 2v2/3v3 arenas but even 5v5 is too much.

arenas is the best thing that has ever happened to wow.

it gave us a clear gearing path to pvp, even if you didnt have 20 hours a day to play.
it rewarded skill instead of mindless grind, and it gave a more enjoyable pvp experience to those who dont like mass scale pvp.

BGs are still there in TBC, you can still play them.

[scubi666stacy]

Wrong.

As a leatherworker in TBC, I farmed Cobra scales in Shadowmoon Valley, Elementals and leather in Nagrand for all the mats I needed.

In all these 3 places, constant PvP battles raged as the mobs we had to kill were very limited. We had the elemental plateau in Nagrand with about 20 elementals, and the cave in Shadowmoon Valley with about 8-10 snakes. The leather was more abundant but the special leather to make the TBC druid tanking sets came from very specific mobs in a very specific area which was right next to the horde base in Nagrand.

And of course, we were always close to Halaa in Nagrand, which was a PvP area.

PvP in those areas was fierce and could happen at any moment.

I am sure other players who farmed mats for their professions or simply gathered rep with factions had PvP too.

I also remember later in the game when farming Ogri'la rep, I had quite frequent PvP encounters.

World PvP was quite alive in TBC, because to do all the stuff it was required of you, you had to be on the ground for extremely long periods. Being in the air only made travel a bit more convenient.

Exactly. Nagrand elemental plateau was heavily contested, for example.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

You derps whine about how your classes feel the same in retail? Well why the fuck do you think they feel the need to do that? lol

Cuz the plebs crave arena balance so they too can learn the flowchart hahaha

There is some truth here. I think classes lost their identity because they are trying too hard to balance around Arena. The one area the majority of players don't care about. And I love PvP but big team battles are more my thing so BGs and rated BGs is what I choose over raiding. #ratedbgsoloque