Turkish troops launch offensive into northern Syria, says Erdogan

[Draco-Onis]

You think the Syrian refugees would rather stay in camps in Turkey and form their own province rather than return to Syrian towns that Turkey rebuilds?

Would you want to relocate in a war zone?

With any of these countries, I'm not opposed to being the eternal peacekeepers. Iraq certainly falls down without us. Afghanistan, dunno, if I was in charge I'd probably split the entire country up and sell it for parts. Syria's a bit of a problem though, because I think Assad is still the official government, such as it is. If we're not going to overthrow him, then we should probably not be there.

That's what Putin and Erdrogan will decide now.

And, of course, should USA forces have fired on Turkish forces when they crossed the border? Not the 100ish spec ops guys that were actually there, but the warplanes that would have hit the Turkish/ Syrian forces. Is that a good step? Certainly at some point something must be done about Turkey, but when and by whom?

Those Turkish forces have been there and threatening an invasion for years, they would do exactly jack shit because we are the most powerful war machine on earth and they wouldn't dare lay a finger on US forces. If we had a president with balls he wouldn't have caved like a cheap suit to fucking Turkey.

What do you think we "got out of it"? Genuinely curious. I'm fine with the "we fight them over there so they don't come over here" stuff, but isn't that a Republican talking point?

We destroyed the caliphate and kept ISIS in check in the region, it's a lot cheaper in terms of cost and man power to what we did in Iraq we are talking a couple of thousand troops versus hundreds of thousands in previous operations.

If Trump hadn't pulled forces back and assuming that means Turkey didn't invade, and assuming a Democrat takes over in 2020, what do you think the next 4 year plan would have been for US forces in Syria?

Getting the Kurds a better deal resulting in a small nation and a reliable ally for the US in the middle east in the war against ISIS. It would greatly benefit us for the Kurds to have their own nation they have done far more for us than Turkey in the war on terror.

Again, I don't agree with what Trump did, but I'm just not of the opinion that we OWE them our presence. I don't understand why the European Union didn't
take up the mantle when it became obvious that Trump was going to discard it. I don't understand why people think Turkey wasn't going to invade anyway. I really don't understand why people think imprisoning ISIS families in camps we paid the Kurds to manage was a long term solution.

Mostly I'm honestly surprised that no one just gunned down the ISIS fighters in the prison camps. Prisoner rights seems like the last thing I'd expect from this conflict.

If it wasn't obvious by now but the EU never does shit except wag their fingers, we also convinced everyone we weren't really leaving and that Trump had changed his mind including the Kurds.

[Tierbook]

Would you want to relocate in a war zone?

That's what Putin and Erdrogan will decide now.


Those Turkish forces have been there and threatening an invasion for years, they would do exactly jack shit because we are the most powerful war machine on earth and they wouldn't dare lay a finger on US forces. If we had a president with balls he wouldn't have caved like a cheap suit to fucking Turkey.




We destroyed the caliphate and kept ISIS in check in the region, it's a lot cheaper in terms of cost and man power to what we did in Iraq we are talking a couple of thousand troops versus hundreds of thousands in previous operations.




Getting the Kurds a better deal resulting in a small nation and a reliable ally for the US in the middle east in the war against ISIS. It would greatly benefit us for the Kurds to have their own nation they have done far more for us than Turkey in the war on terror.



If it wasn't obvious by now but the EU never does shit except wag their fingers, we also convinced everyone we weren't really leaving and that Trump had changed his mind including the Kurds.

hehe giving the Kurds their own independent nation, ignoring the fact that Iraqi Kurds =\= Syrian Kurds that'd piss off every other power in the region, Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey all have decent sized Kurdish populations that are all continuous to each other all of which would be extremely pissed off at us for doing that.

[Shalcker]

And, of course, should USA forces have fired on Turkish forces when they crossed the border? Not the 100ish spec ops guys that were actually there, but the warplanes that would have hit the Turkish/ Syrian forces. Is that a good step? Certainly at some point something must be done about Turkey, but when and by whom?

It is also worth pointing out that many areas currently held by Kurds never had Kurdish majority (like Manbij).

So you could potentially have actual locals of those territories fighting Kurds from Turkish side (as they would be the ones most likely to volunteer).

[Fuiking]

My OrangeManBad comment was in reference to the Young Turks, if that's what you're referring to. Depicting the Trump pull out as a horrible mistake, while also explaining how the Turks are justified in the act and how the Kurds are terrorists.

The other points in your reply don't really respond to the post you quoted though, so not sure what you mean.

You think the Syrian refugees would rather stay in camps in Turkey and form their own province rather than return to Syrian towns that Turkey rebuilds?

With any of these countries, I'm not opposed to being the eternal peacekeepers. Iraq certainly falls down without us. Afghanistan, dunno, if I was in charge I'd probably split the entire country up and sell it for parts. Syria's a bit of a problem though, because I think Assad is still the official government, such as it is. If we're not going to overthrow him, then we should probably not be there.

And, of course, should USA forces have fired on Turkish forces when they crossed the border? Not the 100ish spec ops guys that were actually there, but the warplanes that would have hit the Turkish/ Syrian forces. Is that a good step? Certainly at some point something must be done about Turkey, but when and by whom?

What do you think we "got out of it"? Genuinely curious. I'm fine with the "we fight them over there so they don't come over here" stuff, but isn't that a Republican talking point?

If Trump hadn't pulled forces back and assuming that means Turkey didn't invade, and assuming a Democrat takes over in 2020, what do you think the next 4 year plan would have been for US forces in Syria?


Again, I don't agree with what Trump did, but I'm just not of the opinion that we OWE them our presence. I don't understand why the European Union didn't take up the mantle when it became obvious that Trump was going to discard it. I don't understand why people think Turkey wasn't going to invade anyway. I really don't understand why people think imprisoning ISIS families in camps we paid the Kurds to manage was a long term solution.

Mostly I'm honestly surprised that no one just gunned down the ISIS fighters in the prison camps. Prisoner rights seems like the last thing I'd expect from this conflict.

Its just a theory but here it comes: Think the EU has no leverage to Turkey at all, in fact, if Turkey wanted them gone/not blocking them they would have released the refugee camps in Turkey overflooding the EU's nations by those refugees/immigrants. Which would result in extreme right parties gaining more power. I think thats the reason.

Netherlands (well its army is shiite anyway, but regardless) for example has no ''mandate'' . Easy to get: Protect the Kurds and yezidi's by presence (requires other countries too, but if you spin it that way the mandate might not be an issue). However, the rather bad deal for the EU involving refugees and Immigrants has the EU by the balls.. Erdogan knows. Trump does not.

[Draco-Onis]

That's a tall order. Which of the neighbouring countries would recognize that new Kurdish state, all with major kurdish minorities sharing borders with that state?

And we would care what they think because? they would basically be an extension of American power in the ME. The war on terror is never going to end we are fighting an ideology having a long term reliable partners especially ones willing to go to war for you and gather more intel is a net positive.

- - - Updated - - -

hehe giving the Kurds their own independent nation, ignoring the fact that Iraqi Kurds =\= Syrian Kurds that'd piss off every other power in the region, Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey all have decent sized Kurdish populations that are all continuous to each other all of which would be extremely pissed off at us for doing that.

Iraq is propped by us and aren't reliable Iran, Syria and Turkey are basically hostiles at this point so why would we give a flying fuck what they think or if they are pissed?

[Freighter]

Its just a theory but here it comes: Think the EU has no leverage to Turkey at all, in fact, if Turkey wanted them gone/not blocking them they would have released the refugee camps in Turkey overflooding the EU's nations by those refugees/immigrants. Which would result in extreme right parties gaining more power. I think thats the reason.

Netherlands (well its army is shiite anyway, but regardless) for example has no ''mandate'' . Easy to get: Protect the Kurds and yezidi's by presence (requires other countries too, but if you spin it that way the mandate might not be an issue). However, the rather bad deal for the EU involving refugees and Immigrants has the EU by the balls.. Erdogan knows. Trump does not.

That's only because the politicians won't do what it takes to actually control who comes to their country.

[Breccia]

Adding to the mounting Trump-up that this is turning out to be, Iraq is now publicly saying US troops are not staying in Iraq.

All U.S. forces that withdrew from Syria received approval to enter the Kurdistan Region so that they may be transported outside Iraq. There is no permission granted for these forces to stay inside Iraq

So let's recap:
1) Trump unilaterally decided to betray and abandon our Kurdish allies, leaving US forts open to whatever random ISIS or Russia force finds them first
1a) Except the base we bombed.
2) Claims this was done because "no more Endless Wars" but then sends troops to Saudi oil fields, so, that didn't work.
3) Negotiates a "cease fire" which is basically "Turkey gets everything and also doesn't have to cease fire", so, that didn't work
4) Instead of bringing them home, moves them to Iraq, but, now that doesn't work either
5) And we're left with "well some troops might stay in Syria after all to protect our Kurdish allies as they flee for their lives".

"Some of those might be out of order."

You're out of order! This whole genocide is out of order! Attica!

[Easo]

30000 ISIS is going to make a come back... against how big Assad's and Iranian army?

Your scaremongering in media is laughable. ISIS is done; and if it ever tries to rise their heads again outside of Turkish and US protected areas, it'll be smacked down hard.

I mean, they wont hold territory, but so what? Pretty sure you were one of those laughing about USA doing whackamole nonstop. Well, here you go, now others can enjoy that too and no, they wont really fare much better.

[Shalcker]

I mean, they wont hold territory, but so what? Pretty sure you were one of those laughing about USA doing whackamole nonstop. Well, here you go, now others can enjoy that too and no, they wont really fare much better.

A lot of things changed, and even existence of those 30 thousands "just waiting for right time" that are not already part of some other faction is not obvious.

Our approach to it is different anyway (reconciliation and all).

[Svifnymr]

Its just a theory but here it comes: Think the EU has no leverage to Turkey at all, in fact, if Turkey wanted them gone/not blocking them they would have released the refugee camps in Turkey overflooding the EU's nations by those refugees/immigrants. Which would result in extreme right parties gaining more power. I think thats the reason.

Netherlands (well its army is shiite anyway, but regardless) for example has no ''mandate'' . Easy to get: Protect the Kurds and yezidi's by presence (requires other countries too, but if you spin it that way the mandate might not be an issue). However, the rather bad deal for the EU involving refugees and Immigrants has the EU by the balls.. Erdogan knows. Trump does not.

I don't actually think the EU should have done it themselves, just that they really don't have a right to bitch about it when they won't foot the bill. (Though there are some forces in country from EU members.) It really seems like a situation where a UN force should have been organized, but I guess we don't really do that anymore? Maybe I"m just not paying attention to them.

- - - Updated - - -

Would you want to relocate in a war zone?

It's not a warzone anymore, it's their home . ISIS is defeated in Syria, perhaps to resurge, perhaps not. Assad has won, perhaps to come under fire again, perhaps not.

So, again, are you saying the Syrians in Turkey should remain in Turkey forever and just form their own province?

That's what Putin and Erdrogan will decide now.

You think Erdogan has any pull in whether Assad is the leader of the nation, once the Kurds come over to Assad?

Those Turkish forces have been there and threatening an invasion for years, they would do exactly jack shit because we are the most powerful war machine on earth and they wouldn't dare lay a finger on US forces. If we had a president with balls he wouldn't have caved like a cheap suit to fucking Turkey.

They didn't want to invade a country in war, but you're assuming they would have never done so. If they had invaded, they didn't need to lay a finger on US forces, because there were barely any there! So again, should the US have done bombing runs to support the Kurdish resistance and bomb Turkish forces?
Trump is a bluster type. Lots of talk, but doesn't want to fight. Certainly no Red Line guy, but he doesn't want to go to war.

If it were me, I'd be pulling sophisticated stuff out of Turkey right now and preparing for a full on betrayal. They are no ally and we need to give up on the pretense that they are.

We destroyed the caliphate and kept ISIS in check in the region, it's a lot cheaper in terms of cost and man power to what we did in Iraq we are talking a couple of thousand troops versus hundreds of thousands in previous operations.

It was a narrow victory in the nick of time too, those ISIS boats would have been launching an invasion of North Carolina within mere months!
So do you consider it a "fight them there so we don't fight them here" deal? Or just a "it's the right thing to do" deal?

Your assumption is that we needed to defeat the caliphate and ISIS, so you see the aid the Kurds gave us as helping us achieve what we needed. I think the basic premise is flawed since ISIS was not a direct threat to us, and we were there to aid the region. I do think it was a good thing, and I acknowledge that the US was at fault for a lot of stuff that happened, but it's like introducing the dogs to kill the cats that we introduced to kill the rats that we introduce...

Getting the Kurds a better deal resulting in a small nation and a reliable ally for the US in the middle east in the war against ISIS. It would greatly benefit us for the Kurds to have their own nation they have done far more for us than Turkey in the war on terror.

More nation building and slapping the Middle East with America's Big Stick? Let's do it!

If it wasn't obvious by now but the EU never does shit except wag their fingers, we also convinced everyone we weren't really leaving and that Trump had changed his mind including the Kurds.

As I said in the other post, I don't really expect the EU to do much except (insert allegory challenging their manhood). But the whining, bleh. You can hate Trump, and/or disagree with him, but he has certainly made it known he doesn't want to be in Syria or Afghanistan. I'm not sure what notice he coulda/shoulda given in the situation, and the quick pace of pulling the US forces back still makes me think this was a "Turkey is coming in, lets get out of their way" rather than "lets get out of the way so Turkey can come in".

[Easo]

A lot of things changed, and even existence of those 30 thousands "just waiting for right time" that are not already part of some other faction is not obvious.

Our approach to it is different anyway (reconciliation and all).

Reconcillation with ISIS? Oh yeah dude, that will surely work out. Religious fanatics love that!
/s

[Draco-Onis]

It's not a warzone anymore, it's their home . ISIS is defeated in Syria, perhaps to resurge, perhaps not. Assad has won, perhaps to come under fire again, perhaps not.

Are you serious? Syria is not a war zone? really now? you realize even before this there was still fighting because Al-Qeda and other groups control different parts of the country Assad only controls 60-65% of Syria. Would you bring your wife and kids back into that?

So, again, are you saying the Syrians in Turkey should remain in Turkey forever and just form their own province?

Do I need to explain the concept behind seeking refuge?

You think Erdogan has any pull in whether Assad is the leader of the nation, once the Kurds come over to Assad?

They need to come to terms of how they will go forward, Assad is a puppet he has zero pull.

It was a narrow victory in the nick of time too, those ISIS boats would have been launching an invasion of North Carolina within mere months!
So do you consider it a "fight them there so we don't fight them here" deal? Or just a "it's the right thing to do" deal?

Fight them there or here, the people saying we should pull out of the middle east are living in a fantasy world. We have killed too many people changed the place too much to go takebacksies we are going home all we can do is contain the bipartisan shit show we created.

Your assumption is that we needed to defeat the caliphate and ISIS, so you see the aid the Kurds gave us as helping us achieve what we needed. I think the basic premise is flawed since ISIS was not a direct threat to us, and we were there to aid the region. I do think it was a good thing, and I acknowledge that the US was at fault for a lot of stuff that happened, but it's like introducing the dogs to kill the cats that we introduced to kill the rats that we introduce...

Oh yeah ISIS is totes not a threat to the US that explains all the rights we gave up after 9/11 right because that's their problem not ours /s

As I said in the other post, I don't really expect the EU to do much except (insert allegory challenging their manhood). But the whining, bleh. You can hate Trump, and/or disagree with him, but he has certainly made it known he doesn't want to be in Syria or Afghanistan. I'm not sure what notice he coulda/shoulda given in the situation, and the quick pace of pulling the US forces back still makes me think this was a "Turkey is coming in, lets get out of their way" rather than "lets get out of the way so Turkey can come in".

And I said to you previously Turkey was always coming they have been coming for years we stopped them because they know better than to fuck with us. Donald Trump's got no balls and got played by Putin and Erdrogan, Trump talks out of both sides of his mouth you can't say you want to get out of Syria and Afghanistan while going full in for Iran and Saudi Arabia.

[Breccia]

Russia and Turkey capitalize on America's Syria exit

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan traveled to Russia today to negotiate the future of northern Syria — highlighting in the process the success of his audacious offensive, Vladimir Putin’s unmatched power in Syria, and America's absence from the table.

I mean...circle the part that's false?

American influence in Syria is evaporating in real time as U.S. troops withdraw. It's now Turkey and Russia that are effectively re-defining the country's borders and debating the fate of America's Kurdish allies.

The deal announced today from Putin’s retreat in Sochi expands on the ceasefire Vice President Pence announced last Thursday, which was set to expire today, and covers three times as much territory.

It would grant Erdogan the “buffer zone” he’s long demanded, running 20 miles out from the Turkish-Syrian border. Erdogan hopes to resettle Syrian refugees there, in apparent violation of international law.

The deal gives Kurdish fighters an additional 150 hours to leave the zone, and their weapons, after which Turkey and Russia will conduct joint patrols along the border.

Russia and the U.S. are both capitalizing on the U.S. exit from Syria. Putin will take pleasure in the fact that today's deal was reached without the U.S., but with its NATO ally.

The deal could complicate Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad’s efforts to regain control over all of Syria.

Russia’s backing kept Assad in power through a brutal eight year civil war, but Erdogan was aiding the rebels seeking to topple him. Assad referred to Erdogan as a “thief” today in remarks carried on state TV.

Kurdish forces held the territory until their superpower ally, the U.S., suddenly withdrew.

A U.S. military convoy withdrawing from Syria for Iraq yesterday was pelted sporadically with fruit and stones by Kurdish civilians accusing the U.S of betrayal.

“We never agreed to protect the Kurds for the rest of their lives,” President Trump responded back in Washington.

Trump said the U.S. would keep small detachments in Syria at the request of Israel and Jordan and to “protect the oil," but there was otherwise "no reason" to remain.

Trump has suggested that Syria is now Russia and Turkey’s mess to sort out. In this instance, they were happy to do so without him.

Bolded for emphasis. Bolded and orange for Trump.

[Edge-]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/22/polit...rds/index.html

US special envoy for Syria and the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS Jim Jeffrey said Tuesday that he was not consulted or advised in advance on President Donald Trump's decision to pull US troops from northeastern Syria.

"I was not personally consulted," Jeffrey said in response to a question from Democratic Sen. Bob Menendez of New Jersey. Asked by Utah Republican Sen. Mitt Romney if he was "advised about the decision to withdraw all US troops following that (Turkish President Recep Tayyip) Erdogan call," Jeffrey said: "That specific decision, I was not, in advance."

Why would you consult with the special envoy specifically tasked with combating ISIS, when making decisions regarding our allies who helped spearhead the fight against ISIS?

[Skulltaker]

Why would you consult with the special envoy specifically tasked with combating ISIS, when making decisions regarding our allies who helped spearhead the fight against ISIS?

I'll take "You're a smart and responsible president that knows that understanding all the subtle and direct nuances in a conflict like that might require some expertise" for 300, Bob.

I know that's not how the show works.

[Svifnymr]

Are you serious? Syria is not a war zone? really now? you realize even before this there was still fighting because Al-Qeda and other groups control different parts of the country Assad only controls 60-65% of Syria. Would you bring your wife and kids back into that?

Oh, so, it's the same as it was before this? So... it's their home? Cool, thanks.

Do I need to explain the concept behind seeking refuge?

Actually, rather than explaining refuge, which has no inherent time in it, you could just answer the question I asked a couple times. It's not a trick question, I'm just curious if you think they should remain in Turkey for the foreseeable future or if they intent should be to return them to their homeland?

They need to come to terms of how they will go forward, Assad is a puppet he has zero pull.

Then why did we try to overthrow him?

Fight them there or here, the people saying we should pull out of the middle east are living in a fantasy world. We have killed too many people changed the place too much to go takebacksies we are going home all we can do is contain the bipartisan shit show we created.

So we should kill more people and invest long term in governing the coloni... I mean, countries, our self?

Oh yeah ISIS is totes not a threat to the US that explains all the rights we gave up after 9/11 right because that's their problem not ours /s

Yes, because a terrorist attack needs caliphate backing? There are terrorist cells and camps in many countries. There have been attacks in the US that were claimed by or dedicated to ISIS, but they did not depend on ISIS winning vs the Kurds or Assad or anything.

And I said to you previously Turkey was always coming they have been coming for years we stopped them because they know better than to fuck with us. Donald Trump's got no balls and got played by Putin and Erdrogan, Trump talks out of both sides of his mouth you can't say you want to get out of Syria and Afghanistan while going full in for Iran and Saudi Arabia.

There's a lot of factors you seem content to leave out of the timing and motivation, so meh, have it your way.

[Edge-]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5dd_story.html

A Christian aid group that planned a gathering to honor and pray for the Kurdish people at President Trump’s hotel in Washington were told by hotel staff this week that the event was canceled, according to two members of the aid group.

The event, called “A Night of Prayer for the Kurds,” was to be hosted by Frontier Alliance International (FAI), a religious nonprofit that provides medical help in the Middle East, including to the Kurds, according to its website.

...

The aid group’s founder, Dalton Thomas, said the reasons behind the cancellation were “hazy.”

“All we know is they canceled,” Thomas, who is in Saudi Arabia, said via text message.

...

“They said they’ve gotten a lot of security concerns and they couldn’t accommodate enough security,” Struebing said. “I think it’s more related to people protesting our event than it was anything we were doing.”

The Trump Organization did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

A spokeswoman for D.C. police said the department “has not received any nformation regarding potential security threats or concerns with this event.”

Curious decision for the hotel.

[Breccia]

Pence goes all in.

Vice President Pence said Tuesday that President Trump is following through on his promise to bring U.S. troops home from Syria and talked up the prospect of a permanent ceasefire in the region.

Pence insisted that a ceasefire the administration helped broker between Turkey and Syria last week “has held” and claimed Trump’s own moves had paved the way for the possibility of a permanent ceasefire.

“Earlier today, we received word from the Syrian defense forces commander that all of their military forces have withdrawn from the safe zone under Turkish military control and before I came here, our team was continuing in communicating with both sides in hope that a permanent ceasefire could soon take hold,” Pence said in remarks at the Heritage Foundation’s Honors Gala in Washington, D.C. “Those discussions are ongoing.”

“Thanks to the strong leadership from President Donald Trump, we have an opportunity for a permanent ceasefire,” Pence continued, adding, “our troops are coming home.”

Pence also insisted that the United States is grateful to Kurdish allies for their assistance in the campaign against the Islamic State (ISIS), but said it was time to withdraw U.S. forces after eroding the “last inch” of ISIS territory.

“America will always be grateful for our Kurdish allies and the Syria defense forces who fought shoulder to shoulder and bravely with us in this fight,” Pence told the crowd.

“Now that our military and our allies have achieved our objectives against ISIS, President Trump is keeping his word to the American people and our troops are starting to come home,” he said.

"Wait, I thought they were going to Iraq. Or that some were staying behind. The White House has been contradicting themselves."

Yes. Yes they have. But now, Pence is publicly on board with abandoning the Kurds.

[Shadowferal]

I guess Pence forgot about the troops going to Saudi Arabia

[CostinR]

Well I guess it's over. The Turks and Russians reached a deal that basically hands over the northern Syria border to Russia and Assad, and removes the Kurdish militia forces from the area.