View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #22661
    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    Oh yes short of revoking article 50 completely this is not going to be done for a decade or more. The initial brexit acceptance would just be the start of the long process of putting everything back into place that is needed so if people are sick of this brexit stuff then they are in for a surprise.
    At this pace the EU might have an FTA with North Korea sooner than with the UK

  2. #22662

  3. #22663
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Nope, just to cheer you up a little even if Johnson gets deal through we could be having exactly the same the conversation at the end of the transition period! Great, innit!
    There are lots of ifs in this story. Chief among them is whether he even wants the deal through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post


    https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1186749078408970247

    Could we finally be getting an election???
    Would it be for the best?
    Edit: your public is not exactly revered for its legendary wisdom ...

  4. #22664
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    There are lots of ifs in this story. Chief among them is whether he even wants the deal through.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Would it be for the best?
    Edit: your public is not exactly revered for its legendary wisdom ...
    Johnson is desperate for a deal.

    Something has to change and I think that comment is a little unfair - I think the same criticism could be levelled at the voters in many countries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Any the government has been forced to update it's Brexit advertising.


  5. #22665
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Johnson is desperate for a deal.

    Something has to change and I think that comment is a little unfair - I think the same criticism could be levelled at the voters in many countries.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Any the government has been forced to update it's Brexit advertising.

    Fair, the same would go for any country.
    Now the public will have to to choose between a vaguely sound 500 pages piece of legislation, and no deal.
    One side will try to argue how reasonnable the 500 pages nobody could really fathom are. Article by article.
    The other side will just spew " let's get on with it".
    In your experience, who wins?
    Last edited by Demolitia; 2019-10-22 at 09:29 PM.

  6. #22666
    Yeah, this is just the agreement to figure out agreements on trade etc. It's the basis for the next decade of negotiations between the UK and the EU. That is precisely why it is so critically important to get this right and why it is absolutely correct for Parliament to demand more than 24 hours of consideration and debating time to scrutinize the advantages, disadvantages and loopholes that the legislation (which is something like 120 pages plus another ~300 of explanatory notes and clarifications) would entail, especially in consideration of the fact that the government has yet to publish the economic impact study which would normally accompany a bill such as this one.

  7. #22667
    So more money spunked up against the wall preparing for no-deal at the end of October, despite that being legally impossible. How much are we on the hook for to cover the costs of the extra ferries that we aren't going to need? How much have we wasted getting people "ready" for something that wasn't going to happen?

    Tories; the party of good economic sense. Apparently.

    And to make matters worse, we've disappointed dribbles. Again. But I'm sure in the little warped bubble of "reality" he lives in, he is already painting this as a win.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  8. #22668
    The Lightbringer Pannonian's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Vienna
    Posts
    3,443
    God damn it.

    My fictional grandkids will watch youtube videos in the next century about how the EU works. How there are different treaties, and how the UK has been a member for 100 years, though technically been leaving for 80...

  9. #22669
    Quote Originally Posted by Demolitia View Post
    Fair, the same would go for any country.
    Now the public will have to to choose between a vaguely sound 500 pages piece of legislation, and no deal.
    One side will try to argue how reasonnable the 500 pages nobody could really fathom are. Article by article.
    The other side will just spew " let's get on with it".
    In your experience, who wins?
    I don't think that the choice will be between the deal or no deal - for one the LDs will campaign to scrap Brexit altogether - although at present what will be offered to oppose the Cons is a little on the vague side.

    You know as well as I that elections, all over the world, have been won on slogans (and with the advent of mass media - soundbites) for as long as people have been able to vote for their representative.

  10. #22670
    Do British Prime Ministers really just don't believe in doing a headcount and locking down voting intention, before calling (or having for them called) a vote?

    Because as amusing as it's been over the past five years, going back to Cameron and Libya, of seeing Prime Ministers faceplant by holding votes they don't know they can win... I just don't understand why they bother if all its going to do is set them back.

    And props to the UK Parliament for finding an even more esoteric way of making this shit show stranger.

  11. #22671
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    The Sunny Uplands
    Posts
    3,803
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiase View Post
    @dribbles

    Your monkey run government just can't seem to fuck out of the EU =(
    Would be nice if France actually said enough is enough, but Macron will fold like a house of cards and agree to that stupid extension.
    The UK have instructed the EU to give us an extension. Dare the EU refuse? We all know the answer from the EU will be " yes sir no sir three bags full sir, how long do you want?"

    That EU weakness is not the fault of our government...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    God damn it.

    My fictional grandkids will watch youtube videos in the next century about how the EU works. How there are different treaties, and how the UK has been a member for 100 years, though technically been leaving for 80...
    And UK grandkids they'll be asking "what did you do grandpa for the nation in the Brexit days to neuter the EU dictatorship?"
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  12. #22672
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post

    And UK grandkids they'll be asking "what did you do grandpa for the nation in the Brexit days to neuter the EU dictatorship?"
    "I decided to burn it to the ground. Now shut your mouth and eat your dirt."

  13. #22673
    I am Murloc!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
    Posts
    5,077
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The UK have instructed the EU to give us an extension. Dare the EU refuse? We all know the answer from the EU will be " yes sir no sir three bags full sir, how long do you want?"

    That EU weakness is not the fault of our government...



    And UK grandkids they'll be asking "what did you do grandpa for the nation in the Brexit days to neuter the EU dictatorship?"
    Your two comments are not consistent

    They are either so weak they bowi to the british will or a dictatorship, you cannot have it both ways

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    Do British Prime Ministers really just don't believe in doing a headcount and locking down voting intention, before calling (or having for them called) a vote?

    Because as amusing as it's been over the past five years, going back to Cameron and Libya, of seeing Prime Ministers faceplant by holding votes they don't know they can win... I just don't understand why they bother if all its going to do is set them back.

    And props to the UK Parliament for finding an even more esoteric way of making this shit show stranger.
    Sometimes loosing a vote in parliament can be about manipulating the public though

  14. #22674
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    God damn it.

    My fictional grandkids will watch youtube videos in the next century about how the EU works. How there are different treaties, and how the UK has been a member for 100 years, though technically been leaving for 80...
    It's the year 2124, in Brussel, the Brexit-Ceremony is in full force, soon the British PM will ask for an extension, the EU will grant it. It's a nice tradition that draws a lot of Tourists from all over the continent. No one knows how and why this started, everyone is joyful. And on comes the farage, a troll-like creature shrieking betrayal betrayal betrayal, he gets scared away by the children.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The UK have instructed the EU to give us an extension. Dare the EU refuse? We all know the answer from the EU will be " yes sir no sir three bags full sir, how long do you want?"

    That EU weakness is not the fault of our government...

    And UK grandkids they'll be asking "what did you do grandpa for the nation in the Brexit days to neuter the EU dictatorship?"
    So you are choosing to leave a weak dictatorship you can direct and instruct at will?
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  15. #22675
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Ciderland, arrgh.
    Posts
    13,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhem View Post
    It's the year 2124, in Brussel, the Brexit-Ceremony is in full force, soon the British PM will ask for an extension, the EU will grant it. It's a nice tradition that draws a lot of Tourists from all over the continent. No one knows how and why this started, everyone is joyful. And on comes the farage, a troll-like creature shrieking betrayal betrayal betrayal, he gets scared away by the children.

    - - - Updated - - -



    So you are choosing to leave a weak dictatorship you can direct and instruct at will?
    No no, the EU has been telling the UK what to do for decades, we've had no sovereignty because of those powerful undemocratic dictators.

  16. #22676
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    The UK have instructed the EU to give us an extension. Dare the EU refuse? We all know the answer from the EU will be " yes sir no sir three bags full sir, how long do you want?"

    That EU weakness is not the fault of our government...



    And UK grandkids they'll be asking "what did you do grandpa for the nation in the Brexit days to neuter the EU dictatorship?"
    I'm looking forward to the United States instructing the UK to let US industries in on the pile of easy money you call the NHS. Dare the UK refuse? We all know the answer from the UK will be " yes sir no sir three bags full sir, is there anything else you can sell off to us?"

    I bring put it in those terms because your statement is patently ridiculous. The UK is in no position to dictate terms to the EU. And its small status in the midst of a political crisis makes it the weaker partner in negotiations. It will be the same when it comes to a US-UK trade deal, which lets be clear, will not happen under Trump because Democrats don't pass his bills. The UK will be so desperate to sign any deal that makes Brexit look worth it, I expect us to be able to demand you to package up London Bridge in boxes and mail it to us.

    Boris Johnson's minority government, which has won exactly one minor vote since coming to power is not in position to demand anything of anybody, and all the world sees it. A General election won't fundamentally change this calculus either.

    By all means Brexit the fuck out of the EU. Just be aware, there is no "win condition" for the UK in this. The process has destroyed the country's political reputation. It is worse than our Trump wet far. It will take a generation for the UK to recover.

  17. #22677
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    pending...
    Posts
    23,913
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    No no, the EU has been telling the UK what to do for decades, we've had no sovereignty because of those powerful undemocratic dictators.
    The EU is schrödingers government, a strong dictatorship and weak democracy at the very same time.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  18. #22678
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Most of the Johnson administration so far has been about constructing the narrative that the courts and parliament are the enemy of the people and only the Johnson government still cares about democracy. It's probably very effective.
    From that angle... sure. But while symbolic votes are certainly nothing new the US almost never - and this is not a new practice either - held votes on meaningful things unless the intention of all voters was clear. There isn't much of a surprise. McCain shooting down the Obamacare skinny repeal was extraordinary in its rarity.

    And before someone screams "that's anti-democratic!"... horse shit. That's consensus building. Because it allows legislation to be changed to appeal to fence sitters, thus bringing aboard more stakeholders. Climatic up and down votes are stupid in the face of laboriously building an agreement that pulls broad groups together. That's what majority parties typically have to do, in the absence of an absolute majority and rigid party whipping.

    For the UK, holding votes without locking down what people are going to vote for pre-dates Brexit by years. It's insane governing by surprise outcome counts as some kind of strategy.

    There are many parliamentary models, and most of them work fabulously. But the Brexit process has annihilated the reputation of Westminster as a deliberative body. It'll take many years to recover whats been totally torched.

  19. #22679
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    17,970
    With all the Irish business, no one was even thinking about that other border.



    Though I do not find the title text convincing.
    Last edited by Masark; 2019-10-23 at 07:44 AM.

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  20. #22680
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    20,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Skroe View Post
    From that angle... sure. But while symbolic votes are certainly nothing new the US almost never - and this is not a new practice either - held votes on meaningful things unless the intention of all voters was clear. There isn't much of a surprise. McCain shooting down the Obamacare skinny repeal was extraordinary in its rarity.

    And before someone screams "that's anti-democratic!"... horse shit. That's consensus building. Because it allows legislation to be changed to appeal to fence sitters, thus bringing aboard more stakeholders. Climatic up and down votes are stupid in the face of laboriously building an agreement that pulls broad groups together. That's what majority parties typically have to do, in the absence of an absolute majority and rigid party whipping.

    For the UK, holding votes without locking down what people are going to vote for pre-dates Brexit by years. It's insane governing by surprise outcome counts as some kind of strategy.

    There are many parliamentary models, and most of them work fabulously. But the Brexit process has annihilated the reputation of Westminster as a deliberative body. It'll take many years to recover whats been totally torched.
    The problem here is that we're watching the sausage being made. What matters really is what comes out the other side. If, as many of us on these forums hope, we come out ultimately remaining as a consequence of Boris having to campaign on, what is really an indefensible deal to the electorate (cutting up the UK for England to leave the EU), maybe we look back on 3-4 years wasted, but ultimately the system stopping irreparable damage to the country spearheaded (I emphasise this because I know there are fringes of fringes of other parties and MPs with vested interests in strong leave seats) by what is in essence a fringe movement of the Tory party.

    If Brexit happens, and it proves as catastrophic as anticipated, then sure, the system failed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    With all the Irish business, no one was even thinking about that other border.


    Though I do not find the title text convincing.
    Presume this is in relation to Gibraltar?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •