1. #5441
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    That still doesnt erase the fact that BfA was marketed heavily as a Factio nwar expansion with no hints whatsoever outside the Azshara warbringers cinematic taht Old Gods were even a thing here. And that there was no attempt from Blizzard to marry the two elements. We had the Faction war story, which was the story we were advertised, which was abruptly ended midway, and the old god story, which was bubbling slowly in hte background and suddenly became the final patch.
    I mean 4 of the 6 leveling zones also pretty heavily telegraphed Old Gods. Hell, long before BFA launched every YouTuber was joking that BFA is “totally not an old god expansion.”

  2. #5442
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You mean other than G'huun and the Blood trolls in Zandalar?

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    There's still 8.3.5. I believe that's the patch where Sylvanas is dealt with.
    As I said, Major Patch. Would like to see a major 8.4 story patch tho if they want to deal with sylvy in BfA. (Turn Quel'thalas into the battlefield, with Ally and horde operating from Silvermoon and Sylvanas from Ghostlands)
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  3. #5443
    Even the announcement trailer was covered with tentacles. BfA was clearly going to be about Old Gods.

  4. #5444
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    Quote Originally Posted by Directionalk9 View Post
    I mean 4 of the 6 leveling zones also pretty heavily telegraphed Old Gods. Hell, long before BFA launched every YouTuber was joking that BFA is “totally not an old god expansion.”
    4? I am aware only of Nazmir and Stormsong being heavily old god themed, Voldun has that 1 questline with the temple, and Zuldazar with the blood trolls attacking but that's about it, not really heavily Old God themed since it still revolves around the threat in Nazmir and its just the Nazmir storyline seeping over
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  5. #5445
    Quote Originally Posted by TriHard View Post
    Exactly, and if nothing happens today, then we know he's a fraud. We'll see though, I am kinda hoping he is because I don't fancy another Cataclysm 2.0 with dragons as the main focus again, it didn't work then, won't work now.
    i don't really like the idea of a dragon class, myself.

    was really hoping for something using necromancy.

  6. #5446
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    I think the discussion isn't that the Old Gods dont make sense in 8.3 as the finale or anything like that, more so that the person who brought it up doesn't like that the final major patch isn't related to what was advertised (Almost everything advertised AvH as the main theme). While in previous expansions we knew that we would be dealing with the enemy that was advertised for the game.
    Specifically my problem isnt that Old gods are the final boss. My problem here is that a basic tenet of a story is that you should end the story by concluding the conflict that started teh expansion.
    WoD started with the Iron Horde and ended with a boss fight against Archimonde. What made this work however was that in the 6.1 cinematic Gul'dan defeated Grommash and took control of the remaining Iron Horde, thereby shifting the focus of the conflict from defeating Grommash to defeating Gul'dan. So when Gul'dan summons Archimonde at the end of the raid defeating Archimonde to end the threat established at the beginning of the expansion makes perfect logical sense.

    In BfA we start with faction war, all the story we get is about hte faction war and how we should end it. We are also given a convenient scapegoat with Sylvanas. All the story has to do at this point is have Sylvanas break off from the Horde and become aligned with something else for that thing to become the logical endpoint of a faction war expansion. The problem is it doesnt, Sylvanas runs away, peace is seemingly restored and then N'zoth shows up.

    I used the analogy before of Legion ending with Azshara, and that is still the best example i have. Because Legion had loads of Naga going around, it had references to her galore. It had not 1 but 3 different factions of Nelf on the Broken shore who each have their own ties to Azshara, one of the zones even revolve almost exclusively around Azshara, even ending with a dungeon directly stating that Azshara is coming.
    What Legion did not to however was have a questline in 7.2.5 where we close the portal to Argus and Khadgar states we now need to defeat Azshara. Because that would be a stupid way to end the expansion about the Legion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    While Bfa was sold as a "faction war" expansion it did also reek of old god influence even on their reveal and why Teriz think Sylvy will be dealt with in 8.3.5 is well beyond me, shes still way too popular with the fans to be killed off like that and I doubt Blizz will make anther Garrosh mistake, you're only hoping she's dealt with before 9.0 because Tinkers.
    It can reek of being an Old god expansion all it wants, but if the Faction war the expansion was marketed as, and even proudly displayed at every given opportunity is unceremoniously discarded halfway to give way for a different plot then i will call foul.

  7. #5447
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    4? I am aware only of Nazmir and Stormsong being heavily old god themed, Voldun has that 1 questline with the temple, and Zuldazar with the blood trolls attacking but that's about it, not really heavily Old God themed since it still revolves around the threat in Nazmir and its just the Nazmir storyline seeping over
    I'd say Voldun is heavily invested in the Old God story. It's whole story was about helping the Vulpera and fighting off the Sethrak that are helping release Mythrax. Zuldazar, less so.

    Regardless, to say BFA didn't have heavy Old God story, influences, etc from the start is pretty silly(this is not @ you Shadochi).

  8. #5448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Specifically my problem isnt that Old gods are the final boss. My problem here is that a basic tenet of a story is that you should end the story by concluding the conflict that started teh expansion.
    WoD started with the Iron Horde and ended with a boss fight against Archimonde. What made this work however was that in the 6.1 cinematic Gul'dan defeated Grommash and took control of the remaining Iron Horde, thereby shifting the focus of the conflict from defeating Grommash to defeating Gul'dan. So when Gul'dan summons Archimonde at the end of the raid defeating Archimonde to end the threat established at the beginning of the expansion makes perfect logical sense.

    In BfA we start with faction war, all the story we get is about hte faction war and how we should end it. We are also given a convenient scapegoat with Sylvanas. All the story has to do at this point is have Sylvanas break off from the Horde and become aligned with something else for that thing to become the logical endpoint of a faction war expansion. The problem is it doesnt, Sylvanas runs away, peace is seemingly restored and then N'zoth shows up.

    I used the analogy before of Legion ending with Azshara, and that is still the best example i have. Because Legion had loads of Naga going around, it had references to her galore. It had not 1 but 3 different factions of Nelf on the Broken shore who each have their own ties to Azshara, one of the zones even revolve almost exclusively around Azshara, even ending with a dungeon directly stating that Azshara is coming.
    What Legion did not to however was have a questline in 7.2.5 where we close the portal to Argus and Khadgar states we now need to defeat Azshara. Because that would be a stupid way to end the expansion about the Legion.

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    It can reek of being an Old god expansion all it wants, but if the Faction war the expansion was marketed as, and even proudly displayed at every given opportunity is unceremoniously discarded halfway to give way for a different plot then i will call foul.
    I understand, with WoD the story shifted from IH to Guldan. But for BfA the faction war ended in 8.2.5 (and Sylvanas is no longer part of either faction, therefor no faction war other than for characters like Tyrande and Genn). But it is the faction war that allowed Nzoth to be released.
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  9. #5449
    This is literally futile. The people who insist BfA is all about faction war just keep repeating how everything was always about faction war. They want BfA to be all about the faction war, even now when they can only deny it by ignoring the facts right in their face they still insist BfA should have been all about faction war.

    But for once, it's not bad writing to blame, it's bad reading. Or maybe just selective reading, only paying attention to what confirmed their bias about what BfA was supposed to be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashrana View Post
    So, what would be your reaction, if you found out, that come cata release first patch, blizzard were planning to kill everyone by sending a bear through the mail?

  10. #5450
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    4? I am aware only of Nazmir and Stormsong being heavily old god themed, Voldun has that 1 questline with the temple, and Zuldazar with the blood trolls attacking but that's about it, not really heavily Old God themed since it still revolves around the threat in Nazmir and its just the Nazmir storyline seeping over
    All of Zandalar built towards g’huun. If that’s not good enough, then we can discredit Zuldazar, but Vol’dun and Nazmir clearly had it going on. Then the obvious Stormsong.

    I’m just saying it’s the old gods have been a pretty clear theme from the start.

  11. #5451
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Specifically my problem isnt that Old gods are the final boss. My problem here is that a basic tenet of a story is that you should end the story by concluding the conflict that started teh expansion.
    WoD started with the Iron Horde and ended with a boss fight against Archimonde. What made this work however was that in the 6.1 cinematic Gul'dan defeated Grommash and took control of the remaining Iron Horde, thereby shifting the focus of the conflict from defeating Grommash to defeating Gul'dan. So when Gul'dan summons Archimonde at the end of the raid defeating Archimonde to end the threat established at the beginning of the expansion makes perfect logical sense.

    In BfA we start with faction war, all the story we get is about hte faction war and how we should end it. We are also given a convenient scapegoat with Sylvanas. All the story has to do at this point is have Sylvanas break off from the Horde and become aligned with something else for that thing to become the logical endpoint of a faction war expansion. The problem is it doesnt, Sylvanas runs away, peace is seemingly restored and then N'zoth shows up.

    I used the analogy before of Legion ending with Azshara, and that is still the best example i have. Because Legion had loads of Naga going around, it had references to her galore. It had not 1 but 3 different factions of Nelf on the Broken shore who each have their own ties to Azshara, one of the zones even revolve almost exclusively around Azshara, even ending with a dungeon directly stating that Azshara is coming.
    What Legion did not to however was have a questline in 7.2.5 where we close the portal to Argus and Khadgar states we now need to defeat Azshara. Because that would be a stupid way to end the expansion about the Legion.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It can reek of being an Old god expansion all it wants, but if the Faction war the expansion was marketed as, and even proudly displayed at every given opportunity is unceremoniously discarded halfway to give way for a different plot then i will call foul.
    The faction war and Old God stuff are one in the same though. They are intermingled and entwined. Sylvanas wanted souls to feed to her Death boss, including N'zoths. There has always been a deeper darker purpose to the faction conflict.

    As much as you want BFA to be the "faction war expansion", it never really was.

  12. #5452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aettis View Post
    I'd say Voldun is heavily invested in the Old God story. It's whole story was about helping the Vulpera and fighting off the Sethrak that are helping release Mythrax. Zuldazar, less so.

    Regardless, to say BFA didn't have heavy Old God story, influences, etc from the start is pretty silly(this is not @ you Shadochi).
    Yeah, I haven't played the horde zones since Beta so thanks for clarifying Voldun a bit more for me
    (Also agree with the heavy influence, every single patch (major and minor) had at least something relating to old gods)
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  13. #5453
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    My problem here is that a basic tenet of a story is that you should end the story by concluding the conflict that started teh expansion.
    But why? That's just you making up rules that don't exist. No respectable form of literary theory claims that. A lot of stories don't follow that. It's just you being unhappy how the story went, and that's completely fine, but don't act like the story has to go a certain way or it's bad. BfAs story wasn't meh because it didn't end with HvA lol

  14. #5454
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadochi View Post
    I understand, with WoD the story shifted from IH to Guldan. But for BfA the faction war ended in 8.2.5 (and Sylvanas is no longer part of either faction, therefor no faction war other than for characters like Tyrande and Genn). But it is the faction war that allowed Nzoth to be released.
    And i am stating that is a horrible way to pace your story.
    N'zoth being released because faction war is about as weak a justification as you cna get. You could use that for anything really. You oculd say Azshara is the final boss of Legion because the Burning Legion invading allowed her to attack.
    You could say the final boss of WoD are the Arakkoa because the Iron Horde attacking allowed them time to find their lost temple.


    All i am asking for is a narrative bridge that links the faction war to old gods and i would be happy.

  15. #5455
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    All i am asking for is a narrative bridge that links the faction war to old gods and i would be happy.
    You've had one given to you the entire expansion.

    Sylvanas wanted war, for a reason we didn't know.
    She committed crazy genocide, killing tons.
    We find the dagger, she wants it for reasons.
    She trades it to Azshara, to help release N'zoth, and get us off her tail.
    We find out she is doing all of this to feed souls to Death(probably Mueh'zala), and even wants N'zoths soul/essence.

  16. #5456
    Quote Originally Posted by Makorus View Post
    But why? That's just you making up rules that don't exist. No respectable form of literary theory claims that. A lot of stories don't follow that. It's just you being unhappy how the story went, and that's completely fine, but don't act like the story has to go a certain way or it's bad. BfAs story wasn't meh because it didn't end with HvA lol
    Imagine for a second how insane this would be if it was true.

    Lord of the rings has the second book end with Frodo unceremoniously finding a laca pocket that links ot Mount Doom and throwing the ring in, peace is restored and the final book is about Aragorn making peace with the Easterlings.
    Star wars Empire strikes back ends with Luke getting a lucky shot in on Vader defeating him, the galaxy deposes the Emperor and movie 6 is about Han Solo finding a buried space treasure.

    You would have thought the authors were insane, because stories are self-contained entities. There is a Beginning, middle and end. And in the beginning you start a conflict, and at the end you end that conflict. If you want a different story with the same characters you wait for a second story.

  17. #5457
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    Quote Originally Posted by derpkitteh View Post
    i don't really like the idea of a dragon class, myself.

    The problem with a dragon class is that balance still exist. Or should. Invoking the power of the aspects, or even your own draconic powers, sounds awesome, but you won't be any stronger than a rogue. A guy with a kitchen knife. It would work in a single player game. A bonus you unlock if you clear the campaign. A new game plus if you will.

    Congratulations. You did it. Now experience the satisfaction of facerolling bosses with the power of dragons.

  18. #5458
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    And i am stating that is a horrible way to pace your story.
    N'zoth being released because faction war is about as weak a justification as you cna get. You could use that for anything really. You oculd say Azshara is the final boss of Legion because the Burning Legion invading allowed her to attack.
    You could say the final boss of WoD are the Arakkoa because the Iron Horde attacking allowed them time to find their lost temple.


    All i am asking for is a narrative bridge that links the faction war to old gods and i would be happy.
    So, 8.2... don’t skip content.

  19. #5459
    Quote Originally Posted by Aettis View Post
    You've had one given to you the entire expansion.

    Sylvanas wanted war, for a reason we didn't know.
    She committed crazy genocide, killing tons.
    We find the dagger, she wants it for reasons.
    She trades it to Azshara, to help release N'zoth, and get us off her tail.
    We find out she is doing all of this to feed souls to Death(probably Mueh'zala), and even wants N'zoths soul/essence.
    Had the finalk raid been against Mueh'zala then it oculd have worked, because Sylvanas was all about that death.
    But i still don't see the logical endpoint that means defeating N'zoth is a satisfying conclusion to the story of Faction war.

  20. #5460
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Had the finalk raid been against Mueh'zala then it oculd have worked, because Sylvanas was all about that death.
    But i still don't see the logical endpoint that means defeating N'zoth is a satisfying conclusion to the story of Faction war.
    Because this expansion is about N'zoth, not explicitly the faction war. This expansion has been about N'zoth since Legion(see Emerald Nightmare, Ilgy, Xal, etc).

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