What do we owe others?

[Mistame]

There's also things like "maybe don't scream swear words at a toddler just because you feel like it". It's not technically illegal, but everyone around you is going to take issue with you doing that.

Not really a good example, as verbal abuse of a child can have legal consequences. But society's opinion is only relevant in the context of what's legal/illegal. Outside of that, one has no obligation to give a shit what anyone else thinks.

[Elegiac]

Not really a good example, as verbal abuse of a child can have legal consequences. But society's opinion is only relevant in the context of what's legal/illegal. Outside of that, one has no obligation to give a shit what anyone else thinks.

Yes, in the same way you don't "have" to drink clean water. You might die of cholera, but at least you died an individual.

And I mean, it's not even a great idea on paper. What sort of miserable and lonely existence do you have to lead not to have any interpersonal or communal bonds.

[Naruto is stooopid]

Simple enough question, right? But I'm pretty sure we'll find an awful lot of variations in the responses to come.

My answer's simple: nothing. Some will say that we owe our parents life, but we never asked to be brought in here to begin with. Some may say we owe our education and upbringing to parents and schools, but we decided as to whether we accepted or rejected such education. And the list goes on and on.

Unless you've given your word to someone about something, whether that be verbally or in written form, you don't owe anyone anything.


EDIT
Okay, on second thought, I may not have been clear with my idea.

I wasn't referencing the fiscal aspect. Should've mentioned that. That's a given, when you live in modern society and reap its benefits, you contribute to it. Point taken.

My question had to do with the more "moral" sort of debts. Those that can't be quantified and that are usually declared based on an utterly loose set of rules. As in: who do I owe for my successes from a moral standpoint.

Hope it's a bit clearer. Let's add that to the main post, shall we?

What's actionable about your philosophy? How would your life be different or better if you lived by this as your code?

[Mistame]

Yes, in the same way you don't "have" to drink clean water.

I'm not sure how you think this is an argument. I pay for the clean water I use. This is not a "societal debt", it's payment for a product/service.

What sort of miserable and lonely existence do you have to lead not to have any interpersonal or communal bonds.

This is predicated on the fallacious notion that one must have those bonds to be happy. While I realize it might be hard for attention whores to understand, not everyone requires social interaction to be content. Besides, most people are imbeciles.

[Elegiac]

I'm not sure how you think this is an argument. I pay for the clean water I use. This is not a "societal debt", it's payment for a product/service.

Who said anything about paying?

You can choose to drink stagnant water for free. I'm saying that it's your right to do so, but practically speaking it would be idiotic - much like most individualist arguments.

This is predicated on the fallacious notion that one must have those bonds to be happy. While I realize it might be hard for attention whores to understand, not everyone requires social interaction to be content. Besides, most people are imbeciles.

So...a miserable and lonely existence.

Okay.

[Thereturn]

This is predicated on the fallacious notion that one must have those bonds to be happy. While I realize it might be hard for attention whores to understand, not everyone requires social interaction to be content. Besides, most people are imbeciles.

Its been scientificly proven that social interaction leads to (more) happiness. But hey, keep at it in that edgy bubble. You'll grow out of it eventually.

[unbound]

You are right that the answer is simple. You owe others absolutely everything.

Without everyone else, you would be dead shortly after birth. You were born a helpless, useless creature. It is only because of others that you are anything at all.

It isn't just that your parents had you. They took care of you...that takes time and resources that they spent on you.

It isn't just that you were educated. People spent time to educate you and our society in general has decided to expend resources to educate you.

It isn't just that you do things in this world. The things that you use such as roads were paid for by your society. Same goes for police, fire, emergency services, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Humans didn't get to where we are because of individual efforts. It is only because of living and working cooperatively (i.e. owing others) that we've dominated this planet.

In the end, you are merely selfish. Like most of the rich and the RW idiots who believe everything they say, you want the risks socialized and the rewards individualized.

[Thekri]

Well I think there are definitely behaviors that are your social responsibility to perform, no matter if you consider that "owing" or not.

An example would be my parents. I don't necessarily think I "owe" them anything, they don't dictate how I live my life, and due to our extremely different world views, we don't communicate much. However, I still feel that their well-being is to some extent my social responsibility, and if they were to be in serious financial trouble, I would absolutely do what is in my power to care for them. Same thing with any sort of medical situations that may arise as they grow older. I don't want or expect any sort of inheritance (They have nothing I want anyway), but they are my parents, and in combination with my siblings, we understand that we are responsible for caring for them, because nobody else will. Now you can consider that "owing" them if you want, but I really don't. It is really about accepting responsibility for your family, which is important to me.

[Ghostpanther]

You OWE what you want and expect from others, no more, nor less, anything else is how we all get into trouble.

1. Treat everyone decently
2. Don't take more than you need or can use
3. Show love and compassion to everyone despite whatever indifference as much as you can


Really no more difficult than that.

Have to agree with this. Well said Doc.

[Mistame]

Who said anything about paying?

You can choose to drink stagnant water for free. I'm saying that it's your right to do so, but practically speaking it would be idiotic - much like most individualist arguments.

So you were shit-posting. Got it.

So...a miserable and lonely existence.

Nope.

Its been scientificly proven that social interaction leads to (more) happiness.

Not for everyone. But you'd know this if you'd actually bothered to read more than just a headline

But hey, keep at it in that edgy bubble. You'll grow out of it eventually.

Wit doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Sorry, kiddo.

[Zuben]

Technically nothing. Anything you'd owe is in compensation to something you've received, but in fairness a free individual should only owe for things they agree to. If they receive benefits without contract then they don't really owe anything in return. Claiming it's ethical to recompense in such cases is a matter of opinion. It's up to the individual whether or not to feel they are indebted. That's what freedom is about.

Some systems are more generous than what's healthy for them, meaning non-contractual compensation for the benefits they provide is instrumental to their continued existence. Things like tuition-free higher education and nation-provided healthcare. But I think it's wrong to hold that over people, barring them from leaving the country to live elsewhere as if their privilege holds them hostage.

At some point Finland chose to provide tuition-free higher education, accessible to all. So you go through such and now have a prestigious career with higher income. Then you feel like moving to Germany where the job-market is better and you'd get more bang for your buck than in Finland, where taxes are high and commodities/services cost more. Looking from a financial perspective it's definitely an improvement for the individual. But the degree that provided them with their higher income and social status was provided by Finnish public resources. So do they have an ethical duty to remain in Finland, to return the investment to the nation?

I say no. It was Finland's choice to provide tuition-free education and at no point did the nation have the students sign a contract to pay it all back. We could have tuitions same as other countries, but we desired access to higher education for everyone, not just those who were born into rich families, or to have it be necessary to take on crippling debt. Same with our healthcare system that takes care of all sorts of ailments; accessible to all. The ideal of anyone to be taken care of and to be able to raise themselves up. Turning around and demanding those who partake to be subservient to the nation for their received benefits is trying to have the cake and eat it too. If your system can't maintain itself without compromising the ideals that gave birth to it, then it's a lie.

[PosPosPos]

So you were shit-posting. Got it.



Nope.



Not for everyone. But you'd know this if you'd actually bothered to read more than just a headline



Wit doesn't seem to be your strong suit. Sorry, kiddo.

Ironic how your comebacks seem to be one liners and singular words but you are accusing others of shitposting.

Seems like self-awareness and practicing what you preach isn't your strong suit, but then again, it's Mistame being Mistame.

[Puzzlesocks]

Do you live in a society, or are you a feral child who raised themselves from infancy in the wilderness?

If the former, you owe that society for the support it provides you, and the benefits of that society which you enjoy.

If you're not willing to give all that up and run naked into the wilderness to make it on your own, you're incurring fiscal and societal debts that you have an ethical duty to repay.

It's far more complicated than that. If we were to go back to the beginning of our own existence, everything is done against "free will" until you reach a point where it is suddenly the fault of the individual. That is to say, at some point after bringing a being into existence out of selfish reasons, we apply rules to it to have it operate in the game we are currently playing. At what age is a child suddenly accountable for their own actions? Why do we apply these feelings differently to humans instead of animals and nature?

The very concept of debt is a human construct, and it only works because humans have enough brain power to be tricked by fear. If I raise a chicken to lay me eggs, the chicken itself does not owe me any eggs. I can not threaten a chicken to lay more eggs for me, but I can threaten my human neighbor to give me their eggs.

I don't owe society a damn thing, and society doesn't owe me anything. In a way, society is it's own organism, and how I interact with it is my own business. If I decide to take advantage of society or break the rules it fabricated for its own game, then I suffer the consequences. The issue comes when people say that the very act of being born is an occurrence of debt. It's the concept of "Original Sin", or in the capitalist world it is an 'original debt' that we can never repay. We aren't given life at birth, but instead are sold life and told we have to work to earn the benefit of staying alive and 'free'.

[Viconia]

We pay the amount of tax that is required from us and jump through hoops like basic education and military service (if it's compulsory). That's what we owe for being part of society. The rest is voluntary and in adherence to one's own code.

[Frontenac]

No man is an island, entire of itself.
Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were.
Any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls.
It tolls for thee.

-- John Donne

[lagiacrux]

i "owe" the same amount of respect that i expect from others towards me.

[d00mGuArD]

Do you live in a society, or are you a feral child who raised themselves from infancy in the wilderness?

If the former, you owe that society for the support it provides you, and the benefits of that society which you enjoy.

If you're not willing to give all that up and run naked into the wilderness to make it on your own, you're incurring fiscal and societal debts that you have an ethical duty to repay.

What about those that skip their debt and don't repay the society.
Should they still benefit from it? Or should society abandon them?

[horbindr]

i think society owes you life at a decent standard for where you live.

society expects a lot from individuals, and by and large forces individuals to partake without much choice in the matter for the first 18-21 years of their lives.
most of those individuals will then start to contribute more to the society than they take, but there will always be a percentage that can't, and they deserve to be taken care off.
it's the cost of doing business.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you live in a society, or are you a feral child who raised themselves from infancy in the wilderness?

If the former, you owe that society for the support it provides you, and the benefits of that society which you enjoy.

If you're not willing to give all that up and run naked into the wilderness to make it on your own, you're incurring fiscal and societal debts that you have an ethical duty to repay.

it's true that you incur fiscal and societal debt. but it's not true that it's you who has to pay off those debts, especially the fiscal ones.

the fiscal debt is often simply taken on my a spouse/family or the government/taxes, etc. and you don't even always incur increased societal debt for that either.

[Kathandira]

This is predicated on the fallacious notion that one must have those bonds to be happy. While I realize it might be hard for attention whores to understand, not everyone requires social interaction to be content. Besides, most people are imbeciles.

But here you are. On a public forum, interacting with and sharing ideas with other people. Nonetheless, on a MMO Fan Site. Which means it is extremely likely you played the MMO, interacting with, sharing ideas with, and cooperating with many people.

[Mistame]

Ironic how your comebacks seem to be one liners and singular words but you are accusing others of shitposting.

Seems like self-awareness and practicing what you preach isn't your strong suit, but then again, it's Mistame being Mistame.

Pot/kettle. much? You seem to have responded without reading the previous posts. My "one-liners" and "singular words" were responses after having already responded adequately. I've no obligation to elaborate further.

But here you are. On a public forum, interacting with and sharing ideas with other people. Nonetheless, on a MMO Fan Site. Which means it is extremely likely you played the MMO, interacting with, sharing ideas with, and cooperating with many people.

And here you are, making an irrelevant argument. Choice =/= need. I play WoW to enjoy the content, not the people. In case you're unaware, you can block/disable trade, invites and chat fairly easily. As far as the forum goes, someone has to call out the stupid. /shrug