Why are Americans up in arms over China?

[Freighter]

[IMG]http://jih.ism-online.org/files/2010/09/Fish.jpg[IMG]

The image doesn't work, browser acts all wonky when trying to go to the link as well stating it's a security threat.

[Easo]

What have you seen of them? Do you know what mianzi or guanxi is?

Fancy words, but I am not even going to go into that one. They can stay with the CCP's oh so favourite "harmony". China is the biggest capitalist state in the world, things change.
Thats all from me.

[Freighter]

Fancy words, but I am not even going to go into that one. They can stay with the CCP's oh so favourite "harmony". China is the biggest capitalist state in the world, things change.
Thats all from me.

So, you're just going to state there are no bigger individualist than the Chinese people and then go nuh-uh when someone points to things that are pretty contradictory to individualism?

It's not some fancy words, it's a thing that's an intrinsic part of the social fabric in countries here.

[shadowmouse]

The image doesn't work, browser acts all wonky when trying to go to the link as well stating it's a security threat.

Hmm, odd. It shows up in Avskildhet's quote, at least for me (and seems to have loaded for her too). You can check for images of the Michigan Fish Test, and perhaps link an alternate image.

[october breeze]

It's called empathy. You might need some.

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha .... empathy from America .... hahahahaahahhahaha

man, i can't, stop it... hahaahhaahahahahahahahaha...oh God....my abs hurt....

The delusion is strong with this one.

Going back to original question, my bet is propaganda and something to do with communism.
What they do is not worse than what KSA is doing in Yemen, or Israel to Palestine, but you will see no pitchforks holding Americans marching there and burning flags, do you?

[Elegiac]

Because democracy is generally good and police state totalitarianism is generally bad. I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept?

[Katie N]

Because *drumroll* West usually DOES know better, as evidenced by the highest level of living in the world and personal freedoms and possibilities. Which, guess what, partly applies to South Korea too.

No, you don't. Personal freedoms isn't some goal to chase if it comes at the cost of stability in society. You want the world to be carbon copies of your countries, the sheer arrogance in this is laughable.

You have the highest living standards in the world because you exploited other countries for your own gain and oppressed the population in these countries, including mine. Spare me the talk about personal freedoms. You poisoned the lands here, you have caused millions to suffer. So much for the personal freedoms you say is valued by western countries, it's nothing but an attempt to subjugate people to your will, once again.

[Easo]

No, you don't. Personal freedoms isn't some goal to chase if it comes at the cost of stability in society. You want the world to be carbon copies of your countries, the sheer arrogance in this is laughable.

You have the highest living standards in the world because you exploited other countries for your own gain and oppressed the population in these countries, including mine. Spare me the talk about personal freedoms. You poisoned the lands here, you have caused millions to suffer. So much for the personal freedoms you say is valued by western countries, it's nothing but an attempt to subjugate people to your will, once again.

Tell me more about how Baltics exploit others
Or is my avatar enough to make you assume I am one of those responsible for your... issues...?

Personal freedom should be a goal. Unless you really, really want to be that cog pressed down by some pseudo communist regime. Humans are not robots.

[Templar 331]

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha .... empathy from America .... hahahahaahahhahaha

man, i can't, stop it... hahaahhaahahahahahahahaha...oh God....my abs hurt....

The delusion is strong with this one.

By all means, explain how Americans don't have empathy.

Going back to original question, my bet is propaganda and something to do with communism.
What they do is not worse than what KSA is doing in Yemen, or Israel to Palestine, but you will see no pitchforks holding Americans marching there and burning flags, do you?

You talk like no one has a problem with KSA or Israel.

And "pitchfork holding Americans?" What good would it do anyone to go over there and protest?

[The Scourge of Azuremyst]

You have the highest living standards in the world

They don't. Western Europe has far higher living standards than the country you speak of.

[shadowmouse]

Tell me more about how Baltics exploit others
Or is my avatar enough to make you assume I am one of those responsible for your... issues...?

Looks to me like you broadly invoked "the West" and were answered on that point. Don't try to hide behind another identity now to deflect, her points stand.

[Elegiac]

Looks to me like you broadly invoked "the West" and were answered on that point. Don't try to hide behind another identity now to deflect, her points stand.

Yeah, no. I kinda don't buy the argument that liberal democratic government can only exist as a function of exploitative economic imperialism because it's...what's the word...

Stupid.

[shadowmouse]

Yeah, no. I kinda don't buy the argument that liberal democratic government can only exist as a function of exploitative economic imperialism because it's...what's the word...

Stupid.

When I make that argument, I'll send you a memo. @Katie N replied to a specific assertion:

Because *drumroll* West usually DOES know better, as evidenced by the highest level of living in the world and personal freedoms and possibilities.

Her reply was fundamentally:

Personal freedoms isn't some goal to chase if it comes at the cost of stability in society. You want the world to be carbon copies of your countries, the sheer arrogance in this is laughable.

And in further explanation she mentioned some inconvenient history to how "the West" got to where they are now.

So, do you see the words "liberal democratic government" anywhere in there?

Like it or not, in many cases flat out imperialism was part of what built the fortunes of several prominent European countries in particular.

[Ausr]

Honestly, only the people on the internet who want to pay attention to this is giving HK any thought. The general American public really doesn't give two shits.

[Easo]

Looks to me like you broadly invoked "the West" and were answered on that point. Don't try to hide behind another identity now to deflect, her points stand.

Well, yes, I involved the West. Baltics are not there, unfortunetaly, but it is something we mostly aspire to and have been trying to get to ever since regaining independence.
Her/his/it's point, imho (do note that it is my opinion), is nothing more than the good old "its their culture" excuse we have seen oh so many times.

[NED funded]

Tell me more about how Baltics exploit others
Or is my avatar enough to make you assume I am one of those responsible for your... issues...?

Personal freedom should be a goal. Unless you really, really want to be that cog pressed down by some pseudo communist regime. Humans are not robots.

FWIW She is pretty much alone in this sentiment. Majority of vietnamese people have a favorable view to the US.

[shadowmouse]

Her/his/it's point, imho (do note that it is my opinion), is nothing more than the good old "its their culture" excuse we have seen oh so many times.

Fair enough, with the exception being that in her case it is her culture, but why do you dismiss that out of hand? When it comes to plants and animals, one of the arguments against just ignoring extinctions is that we lose options. Through study, we can see how they evolved to fit certain situations and may be able to find things that will help us.

Democracy has its roots in small populations, Eastern cultures adapted to fit large populations early on. Some say that this is one reason Eastern cultures in general display particular characteristics that tend to focus more on groups and social connections. From her reply, you can see that she has raised social stability as an issue between the two styles, and a lack of social stability seems to be very much an issue in NA/EU news.

Europe went through a period where elder sons inherited and the younger sons either got a fraction of something or they had to go out to make their fortunes. For awhile, "out" was "the New World" or Australia. Those places are now filling in and populations are rising. Today, democracy is in much of "the West" some form of compromise such as representative democracy. In several countries it still has vestiges of feudalism. As populations rise, it looks to me that we're seeing Western countries adopting measures that are quite similar to things being done in the East, we just put our own spin on them to make them more palatable to us.

Why not let Asia work out their own solutions? Taiwan today is in a better situation than it once was, but one doesn't have to go very far back to see a pretty strong authoritarian streak. It is a work in progress, who knows how it will end up? Some things will work out, some things may fail, but it goes somewhat along the lines of a common point about free speech -- that if it means anything, it also means protecting unpopular opinions.

[szechuan]

Why not let Asia work out their own solutions?

The HK Protesters asked America for help.

[shadowmouse]

The HK Protesters asked America for help.

So?

So did the Kurds. The answer they got was some muddle of how they weren't there to help us during Normandy and how we never promised to protect them. Hong Kong is larger than the protest movement, and there are also counter protesters who oppose the protesters demands. It is a matter for HK to sort out, not something for the US to get involved in -- no more than foreign governments need to be getting involved in manipulating the US political process, and no more than China should get involved in the Hawaii sovereignty movement.

More to the point, you've injected a very narrow point that has plenty of other active thread, into a discussion that isn't about the riots in HK. How about leaving HK to the HK threads, particularly since some of us were having a broader discussion of "East" and "West". No need to derail it.

[szechuan]

It is a matter for HK to sort out, not something for the US to get involved in -- no more than foreign governments need to be getting involved in manipulating the US political process, and no more than China should get involved in the Hawaii sovereignty movement.

I disagree, HK protesters asked for help and therefore they're going to get it.

no more than foreign governments need to be getting involved in manipulating the US political process

That's because what you seem to be describing are Illegal and undermines American Democracy, and Foreign Governments are already involved with the United States in some way shape and form.