Purge of Dalaran

[allawyn]

One would think that if the Alliance is forced to forget and forgive the genocide of one of their races a few moons back, the Horde would by now be able to forget about a localized incident about 7 years back in which a bunch of criminals helped a murderous psychopath use a nuke on a civilian target and were subsequently punished for it. Not to mention that Jaina killed maybe 10 Blood Elves and only those that resisted arrest, all the others she send to prison. Remind me what happened with prisoners of Teldrassil and Theramore? Oooh right, there were none.

As for Khadgar, as usual, he was away when things went down. But no worries. Jaina was quite capable of handling these traitors to the Kirin Tor herself.

The problem is mostly that only the Alliance actions are really just forgotten. They had Horde leaders take the blame for almost everything and validate the notiion that it is evil while Jaina is noble and pure hero.

And this is the part that really amazes me. I mean if want to Jaina to be redeemed, she would feel a lot more redeemed if she had made some acknowledgement that the death of civilians in Dalaran was wrong. (And some vague "blood on our hands" that could well refer to her Kul Tiras story arc is not even close). Instead, we have her being sorry that peopled died stopping genocide but shows no remorse for the death of civilians and the races of people she killed are all suppose to be "what a friend"? I'm mean, is Blizzard that clueless.

[mickybrighteyes]

Sure. Modera was with Jaina in the Isle of Thunder. Ansirem stayed back at Arathi crater until they tidied it up. Karlain traveled around in the Dark Riders comic.

To the point where unexplained, never mentioned side trips are expected? Doubtful.

[Raisei]

The thing is that they forgive Horde members who killed other Horde members in order to remove people responsible for Teldrassil from the Horde.

So has every Horde member that ever did the Siege of Orgrimmar raid or took part in it lorewise (including ALL your current leadership, even Ji Firepaw ). Lots of Horde orcs and goblins and whatever killed by Horde there to remove an insane Warchief. This "Baine is a traitor" argument is soooo sad. He safed you all, Sylvanas was gonna feed you to Death, don't be foolish.

Political faction led by archmages.

Hiding behind Dalaran's neutrality to commit mass murder against what should be their allies in the Kirin Tor is treason against the organisation and therefore a criminal action.

With no civilains inside.

Hardly because of the Bloodelves in question, they did everything to prevent escape by even blocking/interfering with teleportation. It is only thanks to Baine's warning and Rhonin's sacrifice that the destruction was limited and no more lifes were destroyed not for lack of trying on Songweaver's part.
As for NO civilian casualties... maybe take a stroll through Dalaran around 9 o'clock pm when the lamps are lit. Maybe that jogs your memory.

10 is what the quest has. WoW is miniature of Azeroth.

Not like Dalaran is that big to begin with. And my point remains that Jaina only killed those that resisted arrest and attacked her, not like she slaughtered innocent children in their houses.

Just like in Stonard or Taurajo.

Yeah, had to come. Next you will blame the entire BFA war on Stormheim huh?

Taurajo was a mistake, no argument there. There were wrong informations about a Tauren attack coming, hence the Alliance struck first for once in a life time, but the General in charge explicitedly ordered his men to leave an opening for civilians to flee and refused to order the slaughter of civilians. Hence it does not work as a counter balance to either Theramore or Teldrassil, sorry.

Stonard is not even remotely a civilian target, it is explicitedly there to keep Horde military presence up in the area and therefore is attacked.

On top of that both of these places are mere outposts with maybe a few dozen people around, while Theramore and Teldrassil are fully fledged cities and in Teldrassils case hundreds maybe thousands of Nightelf civilians died. Hardly compares to those two military targets. The Horde is so desperate to shift blame away so that they can keep rampaging it is almost cute.

The problem is mostly that only the Alliance actions are really just forgotten. They had Horde leaders take the blame for almost everything and validate the notiion that it is evil while Jaina is noble and pure hero.

And this is the part that really amazes me. I mean if want to Jaina to be redeemed, she would feel a lot more redeemed if she had made some acknowledgement that the death of civilians in Dalaran was wrong. (And some vague "blood on our hands" that could well refer to her Kul Tiras story arc is not even close). Instead, we have her being sorry that peopled died stopping genocide but shows no remorse for the death of civilians and the races of people she killed are all suppose to be "what a friend"? I'm mean, is Blizzard that clueless.

I think the reason why some of the Alliance deeds are forgotten easily is because most are a response to Horde attacks of equal or much higher brutality.

- The Purge of Dalaran directly follows the Destruction of Theramore.

- Stormheim's attack on Sylvanas is a reaction to her "apparently" leaving Varian and the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore (Genn had no idea what happened on the ledge up there and none of the Horde even tried to explain)

- Taurajo for once was an "Alliance shot first" moment, but even then they did not go all the way and let the civilians and refugess in peace. Remember what the Horde did with Theramore refugees?

On top of that the scope of these events pale in comparison to the warcrimes the Horde has commited by now. Give me one Alliance warcrime that even remotely compares to Teldrassil?

Jaina does have many regrets, but indeed none are about this Purge. If she talks of Blood on her hands she means Daelin and how she could not stop Arthas from killing everyone in Stratholm.

[Miseration]

So has every Horde member that ever did the Siege of Orgrimmar raid or took part in it lorewise (including ALL your current leadership, even Ji Firepaw ). Lots of Horde orcs and goblins and whatever killed by Horde there to remove an insane Warchief. This "Baine is a traitor" argument is soooo sad. He safed you all, Sylvanas was gonna feed you to Death, don't be foolish.



Hiding behind Dalaran's neutrality to commit mass murder against what should be their allies in the Kirin Tor is treason against the organisation and therefore a criminal action.



Hardly because of the Bloodelves in question, they did everything to prevent escape by even blocking/interfering with teleportation. It is only thanks to Baine's warning and Rhonin's sacrifice that the destruction was limited and no more lifes were destroyed not for lack of trying on Songweaver's part.
As for NO civilian casualties... maybe take a stroll through Dalaran around 9 o'clock pm when the lamps are lit. Maybe that jogs your memory.



Not like Dalaran is that big to begin with. And my point remains that Jaina only killed those that resisted arrest and attacked her, not like she slaughtered innocent children in their houses.



Yeah, had to come. Next you will blame the entire BFA war on Stormheim huh?

Taurajo was a mistake, no argument there. There were wrong informations about a Tauren attack coming, hence the Alliance struck first for once in a life time, but the General in charge explicitedly ordered his men to leave an opening for civilians to flee and refused to order the slaughter of civilians. Hence it does not work as a counter balance to either Theramore or Teldrassil, sorry.

Stonard is not even remotely a civilian target, it is explicitedly there to keep Horde military presence up in the area and therefore is attacked.

On top of that both of these places are mere outposts with maybe a few dozen people around, while Theramore and Teldrassil are fully fledged cities and in Teldrassils case hundreds maybe thousands of Nightelf civilians died. Hardly compares to those two military targets. The Horde is so desperate to shift blame away so that they can keep rampaging it is almost cute.

Baine is trash. He belongs on the powderpuff alliance.

[Chonar]

Purge of dalaran? Never happened. You must be mistaken.

Which is why it's specifically adressed in the scenario where you save Baine during the war campaign.
Just because thats not enough for you doesn't mean you can pretend the writers have forgotten all about it when that literally isn't the case.

Yes, I know you want to reply "uuhhh just 1 magister with 4 adds bluh bluh", yes, I know, its a footnote compared to what it should be. Not the point.

[Tarba]

Which is why it's specifically adressed in the scenario where you save Baine during the war campaign.
Just because thats not enough for you doesn't mean you can pretend the writers have forgotten all about it when that literally isn't the case.

Yes, I know you want to reply "uuhhh just 1 magister with 4 adds bluh bluh", yes, I know, its a footnote compared to what it should be. Not the point.

So two temptatives of genocide of bloodelves in dalaran. One by the kirin tor, one by Jaina and the kirin tor, and the results all of that is bloodelves going back in dalaran both times and two lines of text of a no name still angry about it.

Blizzard don't care about it. Don't think about it. It's just that from time to time there is a guy in the back, who says, "hey maybe we should put a line of text about it somewhere? Like on someone evil we will kill in the minute?" And the staff agree probably not knowing what the guy is talking about and just thinking "who the hell care ? Meh it might please some weirdo. Let's talk about how evil sylvanas is, that's cool now".

[Nathasil]

So two temptatives of genocide of bloodelves in dalaran. One by the kirin tor, one by Jaina and the kirin tor, and the results all of that is bloodelves going back in dalaran both times and two lines of text of a no name still angry about it.

Blizzard don't care about it. Don't think about it. It's just that from time to time there is a guy in the back, who says, "hey maybe we should put a line of text about it somewhere? Like on someone evil we will kill in the minute?" And the staff agree probably not knowing what the guy is talking about and just thinking "who the hell care ? Meh it might please some weirdo. Let's talk about how evil sylvanas is, that's cool now".

I don't know man. Would you really enjoy WoW more if at every corner it would start pointing out who did what wrong? Because that would be quite the list on the Horde side...you may fall asleep half-way when they get to WC3 while you are still waiting for them to finally bring up Blood Elves in Dalaran...

The point i'm trying to make is:
Did Horde races ever "suffer" from unjustified attacks by the Alliance (or neutral organisations that are perceived to be Alliance)? Yes. Yes they did.
Does that totally pale both in number and intensity when compared to what Alliance races suffered from the Hode? Yes. Yes it does.

All the things mentioned on the Horde side here so far are even smaller in extend than fucking Southshore. When was the last time Southshore was brought up?

More importantly:
Blizzard LOVES to show the Alliance as the victim faction. It is the one picture they always use for it. Victims. Helpless, miserable victims. The best they can do is get their shit together and smile for a second like an idiot before taking the next kick to the groin. Every - single - time.
The Horde at least gets portrayed as the tough guys, who will not take shit from anybody and even if scratched will FURIOUSLY retaliate immediately.

I don't think most people would call "being a miserable victim" the "positive" or "preferred" thing to be in a faction war.

Always having Alliance NPCs point out all the wrongs they suffered from the Horde while not achieving ANYTHING afterwards, while the Horde NPC seldomly brings up all the injust cruelties they were forced to swallow DOES contribute to this depiction. It just makes the Alliance seem more whiney and the Horde more stoic.

[Lelkowski]

With no civilains inside.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=72498/theramore-citizen

Ye, it's good they were evacuated.

[Lolites]

One would think that if the Alliance is forced to forget and forgive the genocide of one of their races a few moons back, the Horde would by now be able to forget about a localized incident about 7 years back in which a bunch of criminals helped a murderous psychopath use a nuke on a civilian target and were subsequently punished for it. Not to mention that Jaina killed maybe 10 Blood Elves and only those that resisted arrest, all the others she send to prison. Remind me what happened with prisoners of Teldrassil and Theramore? Oooh right, there were none.

As for Khadgar, as usual, he was away when things went down. But no worries. Jaina was quite capable of handling these traitors to the Kirin Tor herself.

you mean when bunch of criminals help smuggle something (divine bell, had nothing to do with theramore) and so jaina and alliance went on murderous rampage of INNOCENT (you literaly killed shopkeepers in q just bcs they didnt join silver covenant) people who had nothing to do with it? btw casualties were described as "heavy" and purge as "bloody affair" but sure, just 10 dead belfs...

[Tarba]

I don't know man. Would you really enjoy WoW more if at every corner it would start pointing out who did what wrong? Because that would be quite the list on the Horde side...you may fall asleep half-way when they get to WC3 while you are still waiting for them to finally bring up Blood Elves in Dalaran...

The point i'm trying to make is:
Did Horde races ever "suffer" from unjustified attacks by the Alliance (or neutral organisations that are perceived to be Alliance)? Yes. Yes they did.
Does that totally pale both in number and intensity when compared to what Alliance races suffered from the Hode? Yes. Yes it does.

All the things mentioned on the Horde side here so far are even smaller in extend than fucking Southshore. When was the last time Southshore was brought up?

More importantly:
Blizzard LOVES to show the Alliance as the victim faction. It is the one picture they always use for it. Victims. Helpless, miserable victims. The best they can do is get their shit together and smile for a second like an idiot before taking the next kick to the groin. Every - single - time.
The Horde at least gets portrayed as the tough guys, who will not take shit from anybody and even if scratched will FURIOUSLY retaliate immediately.

I don't think most people would call "being a miserable victim" the "positive" or "preferred" thing to be in a faction war.

Always having Alliance NPCs point out all the wrongs they suffered from the Horde while not achieving ANYTHING afterwards, while the Horde NPC seldomly brings up all the injust cruelties they were forced to swallow DOES contribute to this depiction. It just makes the Alliance seem more whiney and the Horde more stoic.

Yep. I would enjoy way more wow if bloodelves would hold a grudge against Dalaran and the kirin tor for one temptative of genocide and dalaran the kirin tor and jaina for the purge.

And not be the fucking beacon of peace of the horde every time they have to deal with them. Because it's beyond ridiculous.

Blizzard love to show the alliance as the victim, yeah we know about that. Like with Theramore. We got a shit tone of official whine that theramore was a poor innocent city, Jaina a poor innocent victim, while it had just send the alliance armies against the horde before that. With the intention to target Orgrimmar and only stopped by the cataclysm.

Or when the horde retaliate after the alliance tried to assassinate their warchief who just occur to have saved 90% of the alliance and horde leaders 2 months ago.

We know that they are the poor innocent victims. And the horde have to cope with that shit story writting for everything we do, even when we have reasons, we officially have no actual reason and so we must absolutely kill each others instead.

[matrix123mko]

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=72498/theramore-citizen

Ye, it's good they were evacuated.

They shouldn't have entered territorial waters of the Horde.

[Lolites]

They were refusing to surrender to a lawful authority. The authority was grossly abused, but it was still lawful. There is little reason to believe that had they not resisted they would have been more than imprisoned.

mostly silver covenant and SI7, so no, not lawful authority, but rather just neighbours joined by enemies, and if you read up a bit on it how they used the oportunity for harasment and attacks on their political enemies, it seems unlikely they wouldnt be harmed, not to mention belfs had previous experience how is it to be arrested without reason by alliance and kirin tor (Garithos im looking at you), and at the time they were all sentanced to death, so you might see why they wouldnt just lay down and surrender, when they are being "arrested" by someon who dont really hold authority over them and when they dont even know WHY (or to be precise there was no reason as to why, as 99% of them were completely innocent) they are being arrested

[Lolites]

They were arrested by Silver Covenant agents granted right to do so by Jaina Proudmoore, then leader of the Kirin Tor and Modera, oldest sitting member of the Council of Six.
As I said, it was a very poor use of authority, but it was still within their lawful means. This is a fantasy setting, not a modern democracy. Citizens don't really have that many rights. It was also not an action approved by the Alliance in any way. It was undertaken by Jaina and Vereesa without consulting any other Alliance leaders.

but how could sunreavers knew? they havent been told anything just enemies came and attacked or at best told them to surrender
and even if they had the authority, and the original intention was to arrest everybody it turned into a genocide, or massacre at best, yet still the worst "impact" was Jaina was scolded by Varian, and thats it, and that seems to be the case with anything alliance does... for horde at least leaders get the blame, even though its incredibly stupid, but at least something, same with Genns attack in stormheim, he wasnt even scolded, literaly nothing happened to him for breaking the armistice during the biggest threat azeroth faced, no consequences to him whatsoever, not even any gesture from Anduin or other leaders like at least admiting he shouldnt have done that...

and btw, getting authority from Jaina doesnt seem like much, since she is not absolute leader of kirin tor, she is one of 6, so it doesnt seem she had right to give such order or the authority to others...

[Raisei]

but how could sunreavers knew? they havent been told anything just enemies came and attacked or at best told them to surrender
and even if they had the authority, and the original intention was to arrest everybody it turned into a genocide, or massacre at best, yet still the worst "impact" was Jaina was scolded by Varian, and thats it, and that seems to be the case with anything alliance does... for horde at least leaders get the blame, even though its incredibly stupid, but at least something, same with Genns attack in stormheim, he wasnt even scolded, literaly nothing happened to him for breaking the armistice during the biggest threat azeroth faced, no consequences to him whatsoever, not even any gesture from Anduin or other leaders like at least admiting he shouldnt have done that...

and btw, getting authority from Jaina doesnt seem like much, since she is not absolute leader of kirin tor, she is one of 6, so it doesnt seem she had right to give such order or the authority to others...

Try this comparison: A Cop in america stops you on the street. You didn't do anything, but he thinks you did. He is going to arrest you to find out more.

Is the reaction of an innocent person...

1) Calmly follow the officer to make sure things get cleared up

2) Pull out a gun and start shooting

Hint: Number 2 might result in your death.

This is exactly what happened. Had these so-called shopkeepers not attacked first, they would have been arrested and possibly released when their innocence was proven. Jaina could not know which Belfs were responsible, so she had to arrest them all. That some low-life members of the Silver Covenant used this opportunity to harass their enemies is not Jaina's fault, she certainly did not kill people that did not attack her.

As for consequences. You must be kidding. The Horde has never ever paid for any of the shit they have done. It was always the Warchief, never anyone else. Garrosh bombed Theramore, not the fault of the Belfs that constructed the Mana Bomb for him, right? Sylvanas nearly wiped out the Night Elves, none of the guys that happily grinning fired firebombs at them are at fault, right?
We are literally at this very moment again seeing how the Horde lies all blame at Sylvanas feet and makes itself look completely innocent. I wonder who will be their next scapegoat. Baine probably.

[Gann Stonespire]

Taurajo was a mistake, no argument there. There were wrong informations about a Tauren attack coming, hence the Alliance struck first for once in a life time, but the General in charge explicitedly ordered his men to leave an opening for civilians to flee and refused to order the slaughter of civilians. Hence it does not work as a counter balance to either Theramore or Teldrassil, sorry.

That is entirely false, many civilians were killed in the attack whilst trying to flee.

Last words of one of the tauren civilians killed.

Yonada's Spirit says: Alliance - they've surrounded the camp! What are they doing here? Why are they attacking Taurajo? Get the children - run! RUN!

[Mehrunes]

One would think that if the Alliance is forced to forget and forgive the genocide of one of their races a few moons back, the Horde would by now be able to forget about a localized incident about 7 years back in which a bunch of criminals helped a murderous psychopath use a nuke on a civilian target and were subsequently punished for it. Not to mention that Jaina killed maybe 10 Blood Elves and only those that resisted arrest, all the others she send to prison. Remind me what happened with prisoners of Teldrassil and Theramore? Oooh right, there were none.

Purge of Dalaran had nothing to do with Thalen helping with Garrosh's mana bomb. Also, by the time Theramore was nuked the civilians already left. And there was only one Sunreaver that helped with the Divine Bell (just like there was one who helped with the mana bomb), not a "bunch of criminals". And gee, Jaina killed only those who resisted arrest? It's a shame she was abusing her power, rendering this justification moot.

As for Khadgar, as usual, he was away when things went down. But no worries. Jaina was quite capable of handling these traitors to the Kirin Tor herself.

Weird. Because Jaina broke Dalaran's neutrality first during the Divine Bell incident, yet I don't remind her handling herself.

[Sagenod]

I'll generally assume that not all of the Council of Six are in sitting in Dalaran at any given time. At that point in time the Council included Jaina, Modera, Karlain and Ansirem as well as Aethas and Khadgar. Modera acted together with Jaina so that's two votes; beyond that, I think that all three of the old members had allowed Garithos to imprison Kael'thas so something tells me discrimination against blood elves was not uncommon among them. It is entirely possible that Jaina had the votes to kick Aethas off. So I am not sure even if Khadgar was there that he would not be overruled unless expulsion from the Council requires unanimity from the other five members.

Didn't Kalecgos replace Aethas?

[Reinhart11]

There are videos on Youtube where you can clearly see that Jaina is attacking Sunreavers who cower in fear on the side of the street. Those Blood Elves aren't attacking or provoking her in any way, shape or form. They only attack after Jaina already hit them.

[Mehrunes]

So has every Horde member that ever did the Siege of Orgrimmar raid or took part in it lorewise (including ALL your current leadership, even Ji Firepaw ). Lots of Horde orcs and goblins and whatever killed by Horde there to remove an insane Warchief. This "Baine is a traitor" argument is soooo sad. He safed you all, Sylvanas was gonna feed you to Death, don't be foolish.

Are those two supposed to be mutually exclusive? Because they aren't. Especially since Baine knew absolutely nothing about Sylvanas' plans.

Hiding behind Dalaran's neutrality to commit mass murder against what should be their allies in the Kirin Tor is treason against the organisation and therefore a criminal action.

Which one is it? Is Dalaran neutral or should they treat Theramore, an Alliance nation, as an ally?

Hardly because of the Bloodelves in question, they did everything to prevent escape by even blocking/interfering with teleportation. It is only thanks to Baine's warning and Rhonin's sacrifice that the destruction was limited and no more lifes were destroyed not for lack of trying on Songweaver's part.

Yeah, no. Garrosh sat on his ass at Theramore's doorstep for a week Baine or no Baine. The civilians would still have fled in time.

As for NO civilian casualties... maybe take a stroll through Dalaran around 9 o'clock pm when the lamps are lit. Maybe that jogs your memory.

How is anything in Dalaran supposed to be related to civilian casualties or lack of thereof in Theramore?

Not like Dalaran is that big to begin with. And my point remains that Jaina only killed those that resisted arrest and attacked her, not like she slaughtered innocent children in their houses.

Except for Aethas' guards that she killed before she even laid any charges at Sunreavers.

Yeah, had to come. Next you will blame the entire BFA war on Stormheim huh?

It's almost as if the factions were already in open conflict since the Legion started, vide them needing a cessation of hostilities to make the Gathering happen.

Taurajo was a mistake, no argument there. There were wrong informations about a Tauren attack coming, hence the Alliance struck first for once in a life time, but the General in charge explicitedly ordered his men to leave an opening for civilians to flee and refused to order the slaughter of civilians. Hence it does not work as a counter balance to either Theramore or Teldrassil, sorry.

Once in a life time? It wasn't even the first time they attacked the Barrens alone just that year. They attacked the Crossroads and Honor's Stand prior to the Cataclysm hitting.

I think the reason why some of the Alliance deeds are forgotten easily is because most are a response to Horde attacks of equal or much higher brutality.

Like Varian declaring war because he didn't like the Orcs. Or Dwarves invading Mulgore, the Barrens and Alterac Valley because they felt entitled to set dig sites up in those areas.

- The Purge of Dalaran directly follows the Destruction of Theramore.

Except for the part where it doesn't, because you clearly don't know what the Purge was even a reaction to.

- Stormheim's attack on Sylvanas is a reaction to her "apparently" leaving Varian and the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore (Genn had no idea what happened on the ledge up there and none of the Horde even tried to explain)

Ah, the Horde didn't try to explain, I guess it makes it OK Oh, wait, War of Thorns happened because to the Horde the Alliance is apparently incapable of long-term peace, so that makes it also OK. And never mind that Sylvanas wasn't even the Horde commander at Broken Shore. Or that the Legion's space ships that forced the Horde to retreat are visible from Alliance's position. Or that the Alliance could see that the Horde's ledge was swarming with demons due to the Legion having active portals on their side of the battlefield once they got onto the gunship that provided them with aerial view. Or that the Rogue CHO questline revealed that the Shaw pushing Alliance to war with the Horde over Broken Shore was actually a Dreadlord trying to manipulate them.

They were refusing to surrender to a lawful authority. The authority was grossly abused, but it was still lawful. There is little reason to believe that had they not resisted they would have been more than imprisoned.

The authority wasn't lawful in the slightest. Dalaran is ruled by the Council of Six, not individual Council members. And power abuse inherently renders an authority not lawful. Kinda what the "abuse" part conveys.

[Nnyco]

Khadgar was in shatrath till the beginning of WoD.