The Scourge is overrated

[derpkitteh]

it is overestimated at this point.

we have acherus, we have the illidari, we have the black harvest, silver hand, and every other order. we have the horde and alliance.

all the scourge has is numbers, simple zombies. acherus could lay waste to leagues of the undead before a single death knight would fall, and they cannot even be effected by the plague. the illidari, due to their demonic nature, could be resistant to the plagues as well, and a single illidari is worth multitudes of stupid zombies.

the dragons, the titan keepers, the ancients, the celestials, the loa. a single concerted effort in wiping out the bulk of the scourge from half of these forces would be enough to destroy it.

[darkoms]

The most powerful beings on Azeroth are routinely mind controlled, killed, resurrected or so completely caught up in their own machinations that they are unable to see other threats.

The dragon aspects each only really care about their own domains, which is why Alexstraza shows up at the Wrathgate. Meanwhile we have a green dragon jailed in ICC being changed into the undead, two reanimated blue dragons - sindragosa and saphiron, DKs track down and reanimate the remains of a powerful red dragon for their mount in Legion, multiple other undead drakes such as rhymefang and their brother, tons of undead whelps.

The mogu - which was truly the first army of the Titans/Keepers on Azeroth weren't in Northrend and are so caught up in their short term power struggles they aren't really a threat to anyone. Meanwhile they have freed themselves from the curse of flesh by reanimating their spirits into statues and constructs which puts them at a distinct disadvantage when you're dealing with an army that can control spirits and the undead.

The keepers are all sticking purely to their domains, excepting Odyn who at the time is literally locked away in another plane of existence by Helya. So it's not like he could do anything until he came up with the idea of using living agents to defeat Helya and break the lock.

The wild gods aren't as big a deal as you make them out to be, but you are also aware of Razorfen Downs right? Where the Quillboar are attempting to resurrect the wild boar god aggra-whatever with the help of the Scourge? The wild gods are absolutely a target for the corruption of the Scourge, not only could they be killed and resurrected into service but they could also be wounded and fall into a dark corrupted undeath.

The Scourge is legitimately one of the deadliest forces on Azeroth. If you did the fire mage artifact weapon quest you know that there are still adventurers foolish enough to attempt entry into Icecrown and the price they pay for this folly is not only death but undeath.

The only thing holding this tide back is a burn victim wearing a fancy helmet, and no, I'm not talking about Darth Vader.

Did you even read my post or just read the topic title and decided to show off your knowledge of lore?
Sapphiron and Sindragosa were raised before the war, and I do not understand what you mean. The red dragons were almost entirely focused on the blue ones and so the Scourge could kill them so easily.
I have no idea why you are telling me about DK in the Legion if I am talking about the events of Wotlk.
What does the Odyn have to do with it ...
LOL what? If they TRIED to raise him as an undead, this does not mean that they could. Wild gods are very powerful creatures. Malorne can easily kill the Lich King on his own
What does an adventurer have to do with it? Garrosh beat the adventurer into the Waters with incredible ease. The hero in himself is rather weak, they are strong only when they gather in a group

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The Scourge's main strength is that they can raise the dead from just about anything: humans, orcs, dragons, giants. Doesn't matter. You take that away, the Scourge is pretty much nothing. But with it? Their power is comparable to the Legion, who - while technically infinite - does not actively turn their fallen enemies into the undead.

Legion will destroy the Scourge with incredible ease, lol
The Legion can raise undead and the demons themselves can be turned into undead
But the Scourge against the Legion has no chance. If Archimonde or KilJaeden arrives on Azeroth personally, the Scourge loses

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Yeah... Chronicle mentions both Legion and Old Gods being rather nervous about the Scourge, saying that if the undead win, their plans are in jeopardy.

No ... you just terribly know lore...
There was no mention of the Old Gods.
The Legion was nervous about the Scourge, not because of their strength, but because if the Scourge wins, the Legion will not be able to invade Azeroth, since no one will open a portal for them. And this was after the defeat of Hyjal, and you are trying to prove to me that the Scourge can defeat the Legion when it has already invaded Azeroth through the Tomb of Sargeras

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pretty much. I doubt the scourge could outright defeat the legion for the simple fact that their greatest strength (raising everything they kill as undead) doesn’t work on demons. maybe they could have kept the legion off azeroth, but that’s all

however if by “legion” you mean sargeras there’s no contest. sargeras could have ended the scourge and everything else on the planet with one swing of his sword, and he still could if he breaks out of prison. and gets a new weapon I guess

although they’re still a world ending threat. keep in mind that the lich king beat us easily when we fought him as a raid boss (something none of the old gods could do) and we’ve never seen an unrestrained scourge

No. I'm tired of telling people on this forum about the Chronicles.
The Chronicles say the Lich King won after a very difficult and long battle. Enough to be based on the addon, which was released in 2009. Read. The Chronicles.

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If they were the smallest threats in the world, no one would bother about it and yet, we had armies from both factions and pretty much everyone else uniting to defeat Lich King. That is how small threat he is.

Almost everyone else? Did you even read my post? All the most powerful creatures are Wild Gods, Aspects, Guardians. Everyone was busy with other problems. The Alliance and the Horde opposed the Scourge, and defeated the undead, even fighting on several fronts simultaneously. In the Chronicles it is even written that the intervention of Malygos greatly helped the Lich King.

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The Chronicles also say that the Scourge could not capture Azeroth by force and the Lich King knew this.

[Domixux]

Darkoms you're right. Are you happy now?

[darkoms]

I am not sure what you are aiming at here. No one looks at World of WarCraft from perspective of wild gods, aspects and guardians. We are all put in the seat of faction and being hero or champion of it. Hence, Lich king was no small threat.

If you look at it from the side of the hero, it’s your right (although, as I said, the Scourge was a threat only because the Alliance and the Horde had to spend a lot of energy on Yogg-Saron, Malygos, and many died because of Varimathras).
But I consider everything from the point of view of lorewalker and tell you what threat the Scourge was for everyone, and not for the Alliance and the Horde.

[Tarba]

I pondered a little about the Scourge threat in the Wotlk and came to the conclusion that the Warcraft community greatly overestimates the threat of the undead army.

People really overestimate the Scourge and its threat to Azeroth very, very much. Arthas just attacked at the right moment. No one from the powerful of the world considered the Lich King such an important threat to be distracted from other matters. In fact, the red, green, and bronze teamed up to stop the blue dragons, and not undead (although there are a couple of dragon quests in the game just to oppose the Scourge), and the wild gods did not have to be resurrected urgently to stop the terrible Lich King, as in Cataclysm, because the Nightmare was much more dangerous than the Scourge.

The Alliance and the Horde are weakened by the war in Outland, the red dragons (and some others) fight the blue, the greens along with the wild gods, the ancients and Malfurion fight the Nightmare, the bronze fight the infinity dragons, the titan-forged and Keepers subdued by Yogg-Saron. In fact, even when the Lich King resurrected Galakrond, Alexstrasza was worried about mortals and said that if Galakrond was resurrected, mortals would have problems. She felt no threat to herself personally and decided to continue to fight Malygos.

The Chronicles said that the defeat of Kel'thuzad greatly interfered with the strategy of the Lich King, but fortunately the Alliance and Horde were distracted by Malygos. Then he was nearly killed at the Wrathgate, but the Legion (well, the servants of the Legion) and the Alliance and Horde saved him and had to be distracted by stopping Varimathras, whose activities Sargeras personally monitored (maybe he wanted to make a new invasion of Azeroth?) and then the Alliance and the Horde went to fight with Yogg-Saron.

Even with all these parallel wars, the Alliance and the Horde defeated the Scourge (even if the Lich King allowed it, but if he could destroy the weakened Alliance and the Horde, he would have done it. Conclusion? Even after all these wars, the Scourge could not to defeat the Alliance and the Horde).

Ha, to some extent he even helped Azeroth, because he lured the Alliance and Horde to Northrend, where they defeated the Old God, who otherwise could have been hiding even longer. Ironically, during the Wrath of the Lich King, the Lich King and his Scourge were the smallest threats to the world.
What do you think?

The scourge was a threat when you didn't have friendly immortal demi god everywhere or super mega weapon channeled by the power of love and friendship here and there.
The scourge was a threat when you the horde and alliance had factions in them and different personalities.

The horde was a threat before they decided to not give a fuck about the lore and just added convenient things here and there.

I mean the whole plot of wotlk in the end was. "Arthas lost on purpose to bring the 25 stronger warriors to him after they defeated one by one his greatest créations so he could raise them. Ho! Also the scourge is super dangerous without a lich king lol".

[darkoms]

Okay, that is fine. But, if you take a point of view of lorewalker, then there should be nothing strange why to some entities Scourge was nothing while it was big for mortals.

I considering the Scourge as a threat to the planet, like the Legion or the Old Gods

[Dellis0991]

I pondered a little about the Scourge threat in the Wotlk and came to the conclusion that the Warcraft community greatly overestimates the threat of the undead army.

People really overestimate the Scourge and its threat to Azeroth very, very much. Arthas just attacked at the right moment. No one from the powerful of the world considered the Lich King such an important threat to be distracted from other matters. In fact, the red, green, and bronze teamed up to stop the blue dragons, and not undead (although there are a couple of dragon quests in the game just to oppose the Scourge), and the wild gods did not have to be resurrected urgently to stop the terrible Lich King, as in Cataclysm, because the Nightmare was much more dangerous than the Scourge.

The Alliance and the Horde are weakened by the war in Outland, the red dragons (and some others) fight the blue, the greens along with the wild gods, the ancients and Malfurion fight the Nightmare, the bronze fight the infinity dragons, the titan-forged and Keepers subdued by Yogg-Saron. In fact, even when the Lich King resurrected Galakrond, Alexstrasza was worried about mortals and said that if Galakrond was resurrected, mortals would have problems. She felt no threat to herself personally and decided to continue to fight Malygos.

The Chronicles said that the defeat of Kel'thuzad greatly interfered with the strategy of the Lich King, but fortunately the Alliance and Horde were distracted by Malygos. Then he was nearly killed at the Wrathgate, but the Legion (well, the servants of the Legion) and the Alliance and Horde saved him and had to be distracted by stopping Varimathras, whose activities Sargeras personally monitored (maybe he wanted to make a new invasion of Azeroth?) and then the Alliance and the Horde went to fight with Yogg-Saron.

Even with all these parallel wars, the Alliance and the Horde defeated the Scourge (even if the Lich King allowed it, but if he could destroy the weakened Alliance and the Horde, he would have done it. Conclusion? Even after all these wars, the Scourge could not to defeat the Alliance and the Horde).

Ha, to some extent he even helped Azeroth, because he lured the Alliance and Horde to Northrend, where they defeated the Old God, who otherwise could have been hiding even longer. Ironically, during the Wrath of the Lich King, the Lich King and his Scourge were the smallest threats to the world.
What do you think?

At a glance they don't seem like a threat, but the scourge is more than undead monstrosities, they spread the plague of undeath, even though Northrend seems to garrison most of the forces I wager that they got clusters all over Azeroth that lie dormant with the control of the lich king.....had no one dawned that helm I can imagine all the scourge all over Azeroth waking up and going wild on all life on Azeroth. Could you imagine plowing your fields only to find a few hundred undead ghouls crawl out the ground and start tearing everything up or your livestock withers and family members contract some sickness, die and comeback as mindless killing machines with no purpose. I imagine the living would put up one hellva fight but eventually resources wear thin and so will the living.

[shadowmatrix]

The danger of the scourge isn't their power, it is the lack of fear. When your opponent doesn't fear dying and is willing to constantly throw themselves at you it becomes scary really quickly.

[Beej]

It was death for everything that encountered it. They couldn't blow up the planet or other wacky things that we have seen since, but all in all dead is dead so the other stuff is just over kill. Hell it isn't even just death it is death than damnation.

Speculatively speaking, I would wager that the Litch King could in-fact blow up Azuroth if he wanted to. Nerzul (who's soul resides in the crown) shattered Dreanor into Outlands on his own -- and that was before he got the power upgrade of the helm.

I would suspect that the scourge is the most unstoppable killing force in the game -- even more then the Legion. I mean the Legion sorta feared the Litch King -- they wanted to kill him before he got too powerful.

Demons might be immune to the plague, but they are not immune to reanimation -- we saw so with Guldan rezzing the first undead Mannoroth as a construct before bringing him back entirely. In a war with the Legion, over time, they could reanimate every fallen demon and have even more numbers. Though I honestly don't see how the Scourge could kill Sargeras himself. Sargeras is just too big/powerful, imo.

[Kyphael]

MMO game-play limits a lot. It's like an episodic reset--by the end, Stormwind can't have been destroyed, the heroes have to win so our characters can go home. Warcraft III is the best example of what The Scourge is capable of, not Wrath of the Lich King.

[Velerios]

People here tend to forget that the Legion unleased the scourge and limited the power of the Frozen Throne and Ner'zhul so that they could still control them. Because when fully unleashed not even the legion could deal with it. The Scourge had actually the power to defeat the Legion. Not only because of the scourge itself, but also because of the Material they used. People also tend to forget the WotLK-Prequest. The scourge is not only a army, it's also a plague, that managed to destroy a kingdom easily. Beside of this we didn't even know the power of archeus and the scourge itself, managing to be able to build flying necropoles, able to plague anything in their way. And archeus is at least in WotLK the strongest of them, and the death knights didn't even used it.

They are able to rise an army, not only of mindless scourge-minions, but also of Death Knights, Lichs, Banshees, Skelettons and Gheist that are actually often Sentient; even extremely smart, as some ghouls too), San'lain(and are able to heal others); even living being as part of the Cult of the Damned and so on. If you played both the death knight starting zone and the Scourge Part of Zul'drak where you play yourself an member of the scourge, then you see how strong they are: chronological you go from grizzly hills to zul'drak, and after you helped the scourge in the instance, in a short amount of time they managed to attack zul'drak, and they only managed to resist somehow by sacrifying their loas.

And there are many sentient undead among them; most of them actually are when they are not captured in the hive-mind of the scourge. Don't forget that the forsaken are also undead. Just that they escaped the mind control of the Scourge because the Frozen Throne was weakening.

So we actually have an instant-army, totally loyal. And the scourge is not only undead, it's also the Cult of the Damned, and you can be sure that they still exist.

[Doffen]

Lolscourge. As much threat as Baine is to the Alliance.

[Shelly]

And yet wrathgate was the worst that happend to both army’s. Also the army’s fought on like 5 fronts. Wow the scourge was so strong

No it wasn't.

Quest in Northrend again sometime and really quest.

The Horde and Alliance both attempt an assault going up north from Dalaran along the floor of Icecrown glacier. A fog rolls in, they started fighting each other in confusion and then wave upon wave of undead come out and feast.

It was actually a set of daily quests to go out and put many out of their misery before they succumbed to the plague.

You also have Garrosh's mismanagement of the horde foothold in Borean Tundra which would have got everyone killed except for Saurfang shadowing the player character, cleaning up the mess and keeping an eye on the defenses that Garry was so happy to abandon in favor of offense. The complete decimation of the Alliance town in Dragonblight as well, a town that you literally have to save all the npcs just to get it functional again.

Really the big theme in WotLK is that the Horde and Alliance just keep fucking up. Whether it be the Kron'Kar or the 7th Legion they are so busy caught up in the faction conflict that it keeps falling to adventurers and the joint forces of the Kirin Tor, the Ebon Blade and Tirion Fordring's paladins to actually organize every bit of resistance in WotLK past Naxx.

Wrathgate was certainly a huge and personal loss on both sides, but their biggest was the attempt to storm Icecrown glacier itself.

[darkoms]

Yeah, it is a threat to the planet.

I didn’t mean it, bad joke

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Speculatively speaking, I would wager that the Litch King could in-fact blow up Azuroth if he wanted to. Nerzul (who's soul resides in the crown) shattered Dreanor into Outlands on his own -- and that was before he got the power upgrade of the helm.

I would suspect that the scourge is the most unstoppable killing force in the game -- even more then the Legion. I mean the Legion sorta feared the Litch King -- they wanted to kill him before he got too powerful.

Demons might be immune to the plague, but they are not immune to reanimation -- we saw so with Guldan rezzing the first undead Mannoroth as a construct before bringing him back entirely. In a war with the Legion, over time, they could reanimate every fallen demon and have even more numbers. Though I honestly don't see how the Scourge could kill Sargeras himself. Sargeras is just too big/powerful, imo.

Why so many people here don’t know lore...
NerZul blew up the planet with the help of the leu lines of Draenor, the arrangement of stars and planets at that moment, and the Scepter of Sargeras. And he just opened up a bunch of portals that ripped Draenor out (and even so, he’s still livable). He did not destroy Draenor by his pure force.

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People here tend to forget that the Legion unleased the scourge and limited the power of the Frozen Throne and Ner'zhul so that they could still control them. Because when fully unleashed not even the legion could deal with it. The Scourge had actually the power to defeat the Legion. Not only because of the scourge itself, but also because of the Material they used. People also tend to forget the WotLK-Prequest.

LOL WHAT? Scourge can defeat the Legion? What nonsense

[Shelly]

Did you even read my post or just read the topic title and decided to show off your knowledge of lore?
Sapphiron and Sindragosa were raised before the war, and I do not understand what you mean. The red dragons were almost entirely focused on the blue ones and so the Scourge could kill them so easily.
I have no idea why you are telling me about DK in the Legion if I am talking about the events of Wotlk.
What does the Odyn have to do with it ...
LOL what? If they TRIED to raise him as an undead, this does not mean that they could. Wild gods are very powerful creatures. Malorne can easily kill the Lich King on his own
What does an adventurer have to do with it? Garrosh beat the adventurer into the Waters with incredible ease. The hero in himself is rather weak, they are strong only when they gather in a group

I did read the topic and I'm showing you concrete examples of why you're wrong.

Saphiron was first defeated by Arthas - not even yet as the LK - then raised into undead servitude. This means any whelps that fall, any drakes that fall, any dragonkin that fall can all be turned into undead. Then we know from the green dragon fight in ICC that the scourge can capture and then gradually turn living dragons into scourge minions as well.

Combine all that with how many times dragons have been mind controlled, corrupted or just decided that their particular idiom was "asshole" and you can see that they are pretty terrible defenders. Hell, the Horde once fully controlled Alexstraza herself in WC2. Yes they had a very fancy maguffin to do so, but that's still an immortal dragon aspect completely at the mercy of demonically fueled hate monsters.

Then you have all the dragon corpses just in Icecrown being raised - such as Sindragosa. Which doesn't count the rest of them just laying in the ground being slowly brought up by the Cult of the Damned.

Malorne is a lost spirit creature and still kinda is. Just sort of the embodiment of nature. Meanwhile Cenarius got his ass handed to him by a roid rager with an axe and even nature takes years upon years of concentrated effort to barely make a dent in the effects of the scourge on the land. So nature itself is vulnerable to the plague.

The only reason the pig wild god isn't raised from the dead is because of player character interference. He was well on the way and that's also a lot of undead quillboar waiting around too.

Finally your saying that the Scourge could not capture Azeroth by force is most likely referencing the original plans of the LK, which was mostly coordinated by the Dreadlords who were big into corruption. The plans of the LK had always been to subjugate the planet after breaking free of the control of the Legion. Which is why Arthas does stuff like feeds demon blood to Illidan.

Also the LK could easily exert control again over the DKs of Acherus and the only reason he does not is because we plead the case that we are more useful as his agents in the events of Legion.

[Varodoc]

Arthas was fine as a villain. His overall strategy was stupid, as is the case with the vast majority of WoW villains, but I think he served his purpose just fine. He often showed up in Northrend to really drive forward the idea that his reach was threatening most regions outside of Icecrown, so he became a much more personal threat than Illidan, who never appeared (save for a few quests in Shadowmoon).

Arthas' overall plan was stupid though. If his Scourge was so powerful that unleashed it could have annihilated the world, then he didn't need to turn us into generals to achieve that goal. His plan was nonsensical, but again, which villain in WoW had a brilliant plan? Even Kil'jaeden, who was very cunning in Warcraft III, didn't really have an elaborate strategy in Legion.

[darkoms]

I did read the topic and I'm showing you concrete examples of why you're wrong.

Saphiron was first defeated by Arthas - not even yet as the LK - then raised into undead servitude. This means any whelps that fall, any drakes that fall, any dragonkin that fall can all be turned into undead. Then we know from the green dragon fight in ICC that the scourge can capture and then gradually turn living dragons into scourge minions as well.

Combine all that with how many times dragons have been mind controlled, corrupted or just decided that their particular idiom was "asshole" and you can see that they are pretty terrible defenders. Hell, the Horde once fully controlled Alexstraza herself in WC2. Yes they had a very fancy maguffin to do so, but that's still an immortal dragon aspect completely at the mercy of demonically fueled hate monsters.

Then you have all the dragon corpses just in Icecrown being raised - such as Sindragosa. Which doesn't count the rest of them just laying in the ground being slowly brought up by the Cult of the Damned.

Malorne is a lost spirit creature and still kinda is. Just sort of the embodiment of nature. Meanwhile Cenarius got his ass handed to him by a roid rager with an axe and even nature takes years upon years of concentrated effort to barely make a dent in the effects of the scourge on the land. So nature itself is vulnerable to the plague.

The only reason the pig wild god isn't raised from the dead is because of player character interference. He was well on the way and that's also a lot of undead quillboar waiting around too.

Finally your saying that the Scourge could not capture Azeroth by force is most likely referencing the original plans of the LK, which was mostly coordinated by the Dreadlords who were big into corruption. The plans of the LK had always been to subjugate the planet after breaking free of the control of the Legion. Which is why Arthas does stuff like feeds demon blood to Illidan.

Also the LK could easily exert control again over the DKs of Acherus and the only reason he does not is because we plead the case that we are more useful as his agents in the events of Legion.

Lol no one argues that any dragons can be resurrected. How will this help if all dragon flocks, together with the 4 Aspects, decide to destroy the Scourge? I assure you, the Scourge would lose troops much faster than replenished.

And really. The Horde only had the most powerful artifact in the history of Azeroth, and Alexstrasza, like the whole red flock, was not full of power (it was there because they gave power to this artifact). I don’t understand why you are telling me this nonsense about dragons. Do you want Arthas to look cooler compared to them?

Red dragons have a ritual after which the dragon cannot be raised as undead. If they were not so busy with the blue dragons, I assure you, the Scourge was much more difficult to lift them.

Malorne fought with Archimonde, he can easily kill the Lich King. The wild gods are not affected by the plague of the undead. Cenarius was killed by one of the strongest orcs, who at that time drank the blood of Mannoroth.

Can you prove that he could be resurrected as an undead? Trying does not mean that it is possible.

No, stop showing your ignorance of lore. The Lich King Arthas knew that he could not capture Azeroth by force and therefore wanted to capture the heroes of Azeroth. Read the Chronicles.

LOL what? Can you prove it? Even Arthas could not again take control of DK of Acherus. How can a creature with free will and its thoughts and desires be a more useful agent than a servant without an opinion?

Arthas fans are ready to carry such nonsense that their favorite character and his army look stronger, that I don’t even know what else to expect

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The Scourge are by far the greatest and most powerful threat we ever faced, second to only the Legion and that's only because of Sargeras and Argus. If you don't count those two than I would actually put the Scourge as a bigger threat to us than the Legion since the former has all their forces on Azeroth already while the latter have their forces spread across space and time. Not only are the Scourge nearly numberless but one of their most important traits is raising those they killed. The Lich King alone is already one of the mightiest beings in the lore with only a handful of characters being stronger in 1v1 combat.

Keep in mind, the Scourge had a whole expansion but even still the Lich King was actually holding back as he was planning to lure the greatest heroes of Azeroth into the frozen throne where he again toyed with them until he sees them as worthy and decide to one shot all of them without effort. Strong characters being raised by the Scourge don't just become mindless zombies. They become even stronger, far stronger. And even with the deus ex plot pull of the Light helping us win, we still have no hope because had Bolvar not contain the Scourge than Azeroth would had still been doomed.

Ah, another nonsence from a Lich King's fan

[Kokolums]

We found a way to defeat Sargeras. Of course the scourge are a joke at this point.

[ArenaDk]

No it wasn't.

Quest in Northrend again sometime and really quest.

The Horde and Alliance both attempt an assault going up north from Dalaran along the floor of Icecrown glacier. A fog rolls in, they started fighting each other in confusion and then wave upon wave of undead come out and feast.

It was actually a set of daily quests to go out and put many out of their misery before they succumbed to the plague.

You also have Garrosh's mismanagement of the horde foothold in Borean Tundra which would have got everyone killed except for Saurfang shadowing the player character, cleaning up the mess and keeping an eye on the defenses that Garry was so happy to abandon in favor of offense. The complete decimation of the Alliance town in Dragonblight as well, a town that you literally have to save all the npcs just to get it functional again.

Really the big theme in WotLK is that the Horde and Alliance just keep fucking up. Whether it be the Kron'Kar or the 7th Legion they are so busy caught up in the faction conflict that it keeps falling to adventurers and the joint forces of the Kirin Tor, the Ebon Blade and Tirion Fordring's paladins to actually organize every bit of resistance in WotLK past Naxx.

Wrathgate was certainly a huge and personal loss on both sides, but their biggest was the attempt to storm Icecrown glacier itself.

It was litteraly said outsite and inside the game that THE WRATH GATE COSTS US MORE SOLDIERS THAN THE WHOLE WAR AGAINST THE LICHKING. Imagine that.

[Varodoc]

It was litteraly said outsite and inside the game that THE WRATH GATE COSTS US MORE SOLDIERS THAN THE WHOLE WAR AGAINST THE LICHKING. Imagine that.

What? That's not true at all. Alliance casualties at the Wrathgate amounted to 5.000 men, while Alliance casualties in the whole War against the Lich King were about 50.000 men, as per Chronicles Volume 3.