I understand WHY people love TBC, but....

[schwarzkopf]

I think your definition of "as an individual" is kinda off, because you can't do dungeons, raids and arenas "as an individual"

You can in retail ... LFD, LFR etc.

I - as an individual can log onto Retail and sign up for a raid, or a dungeon...something not possible in classic.

[Heathy]

you can dungeon solo, or at least join as a solo player, the issue with classic was that you couldn't PROGRESS as a solo actor, i'm sure pugging is a lot more viable these days but in the old days it just wasn't. for various reasons, like not knowing how good anyone is, or if they will stay for the whole raid etc.

I think TBC had about as much catch up as classic did, its just that tier 4 was largely attainable as a 10man.

but we only had zul aman, and magisters terrace as catch up.

classic had

zg < a lot of gear better than molten core drops, some items better or equal to t2, also the best leg/head enchants in the game.
aq20 < gear on par with t2, skill books for new spell ranks not trainable from the trainer.
t0.5 < imo this set took too much effort but its there for ppl who can only do 5 mans.

compared to za and mt, za had gear on par with t5 and magisters terrace came in right at the end with sunwell. i think some of the gear in there was probably t5 equivalent but i would argue that it barely mattered as a catch up at that point.

[Charge me Doctor]

You can in retail ... LFD, LFR etc.

I - as an individual can log onto Retail and sign up for a raid, or a dungeon...something not possible in classic.

Sure you can, it's just not as convenient and you'll spend most of your time doing nothing while sitting in a "queue". Even on retail sometimes you have to sit through 1h+ queues for some bullshit according to my wife who for some reason still runs LFR

[schwarzkopf]

Sure you can

Please explain to me how (in Classic) I can join a Deadmines group whilst doing quests in Wetlands ?

I'd really like to know - because it would certainly make it possible for me to even do dungeons in Classic.

[Bakis]

Raiding was better in TBC but meh, the wpvp and no flying brought such immersion with the cummity.
A new continent, flying, and suddenly there is very little wpvp.

I would prolly play both though if BLZ would release TBC and still keep classic up. Best of the 2 worlds.

[Charge me Doctor]

Please explain to me how (in Classic) I can join a Deadmines group whilst doing quests in Wetlands ?

I'd really like to know - because it would certainly make it possible for me to even do dungeons in Classic.

Join world chat or lfg chat and spam "lfg dm". Would be the same shit as queuing on retail, except slower and less convenient.

[SirCowdog]

Nope - no nuance , just absolute fact.

In classic you had grinding to max level,a few battle grounds, dungeons and raids. That is - once you hit level 60, there is nothing for you as an individual to do.
In retail .. after max level, you have battlegrounds, dungeons, raids, arena, pet battles, achievements, world quests, max level questlines, mythic+ - almost all of which is available as an individual.

I think it's a matter of quality of quantity here. Yeah, there's a LOT of things to do in retail, but almost none of them are meaningful. Granted, what's meaningful to one player won't mean a thing to someone else. But in general I'd say that the things to do in Vanilla, limited in number as they are, are much more substantial.

[Whoopax]

People here are blinded by nostalgia because so many people started in TBC and still got the FUN leveling experience of Vanilla. A lot of people have great memories of TBC, but the actual expansion was bad. It's why it always fails on private servers (WOTLK is popular though). In addition the hardcore PVE crowd has a lot of people that never did real Sunwell. They are a small minority of the players but they want the notch in their belt and they were people that were often stuck in Kara or just learning. The problem is that they will never clear it. Blizzard will never re-release pre nerf content and do progressive talent patches so that accomplishment will never be real. It just ends up being boring and too easy, which is why get bored.

A lot of people also were mainly big on arena and that started in TBC. The problem is that the esport will no longer be there, 3 v 3 bracket will be dead and the 2 v 2 bracket is awful.

TBC is actually the rose tinted glasses expansion.

[toffmcsoft]

The usual bullshit response. Please enlighten us on how that happened. Because anyone why wanted to pvp out in the world did so. Those who did not, used flying to avoid it, as best they could.

You see, PvP = Player vs Player

Not Player vs Someone who has no desire at this moment to fight.

Playing on a pvp realm means travel is dangerous.
Nobody should be allowed to avoid player vs player combat while traveling through contested zones.

[Nite92]

Nope - no nuance , just absolute fact.

In classic you had grinding to max level,a few battle grounds, dungeons and raids. That is - once you hit level 60, there is nothing for you as an individual to do.
In retail .. after max level, you have battlegrounds, dungeons, raids, arena, pet battles, achievements, world quests, max level questlines, mythic+ - almost all of which is available as an individual.

Say that to people trying to get all the enchanting recipes, cross race mounts, winter saber, certain reputations...
There is much to do in dungeons. I have 20 days played at max, and still miss some pieces.

And questlines... There are a shitton of Q's which can be done at 60.

[kail]

People here are blinded by nostalgia because so many people started in TBC and still got the FUN leveling experience of Vanilla. A lot of people have great memories of TBC, but the actual expansion was bad. It's why it always fails on private servers (WOTLK is popular though). In addition the hardcore PVE crowd has a lot of people that never did real Sunwell. They are a small minority of the players but they want the notch in their belt and they were people that were often stuck in Kara or just learning. The problem is that they will never clear it. Blizzard will never re-release pre nerf content and do progressive talent patches so that accomplishment will never be real. It just ends up being boring and too easy, which is why get bored.

A lot of people also were mainly big on arena and that started in TBC. The problem is that the esport will no longer be there, 3 v 3 bracket will be dead and the 2 v 2 bracket is awful.

TBC is actually the rose tinted glasses expansion.

K don't play it then.

- - - Updated - - -

Please explain to me how (in Classic) I can join a Deadmines group whilst doing quests in Wetlands ?

I'd really like to know - because it would certainly make it possible for me to even do dungeons in Classic.

There is an lfg add-on to provide an interface in looking for groups. Otherwise you can spam or whisper global chat for a dungeon group while you quest.

[Will]

World of WarCraft is PvE game.

It's a PvP and PvE game.

[Speedlance]

Flying didnt remove world pvp, it removed ganking on people who didnt want fight.

[korijenkins]

Honestly I'd rather them do something different than just the expected "TBC servers soon"

[Godric]

Very interesting and dare I say enlightening post. I’ll have to agree wholeheartedly about arena. It was always the most boring button mashing activity and my gang of buddies were obsessed with it. Even these days I can’t fathom how people can watch championship streams. It’s just waiting until dampening to kick in, what a snore fest. Healers and CC is just something pvp in this game can’t get around.
One more reason a wow2 with a better combat system would be fantastic even though it’ll never happen.

[Will]

People here are blinded by nostalgia because so many people started in TBC and still got the FUN leveling experience of Vanilla. A lot of people have great memories of TBC, but the actual expansion was bad. It's why it always fails on private servers (WOTLK is popular though). In addition the hardcore PVE crowd has a lot of people that never did real Sunwell. They are a small minority of the players but they want the notch in their belt and they were people that were often stuck in Kara or just learning. The problem is that they will never clear it. Blizzard will never re-release pre nerf content and do progressive talent patches so that accomplishment will never be real. It just ends up being boring and too easy, which is why get bored.

A lot of people also were mainly big on arena and that started in TBC. The problem is that the esport will no longer be there, 3 v 3 bracket will be dead and the 2 v 2 bracket is awful.

TBC is actually the rose tinted glasses expansion.

So many of your arguments are poorly thought out, because they simply could apply to any version of WoW.

You claim TBC players are blinded by nostalgia because they started in TBC. This does also apply to Vanilla.

You say TBC didn't have the 'fun' levelling experience of Vanilla, but it's essentially the same levelling experience minus the talent rework and new talents at level 50. It wasn't until patch 2.3 that they reworked levelling 1-60 to be around 30% quicker and lowered mount costs, and patch 2.4 when they let you get your first mount at level 30. 2.1 (or 2.3) also lowered the 1-60 elite areas to normal mobs because everyone was skipping those quests anyway. Aside from these changes the levelling experience was fundamentally the same as Vanilla's. It still took ages. You still couldn't pull too many mobs at once or you got rinsed. Murlocs were still ass.

TBC seems popular enough when I check private server numbers. My understanding from what PS players say is the reason TBC isn't so popular is because the PS community have less access to TBC's scripting than they do for Vanilla and WotLK, so the experience is far less authentic.

First, people call Vanilla the rose tinted glasses game. Now it's TBC. If we get TBC servers, you'll be calling WotLK the rose tinted glasses expansion, citing the dungeon finder, quests on the world map, and lack of awesome raids outside Ulduar and ICC, re-use of Naxx, and heirlooms as potential excuses.

People like you are, honestly, never happy. It's the classic case of 'anyone I disagree with is clearly wrong and obviously blinded by nostalgia'. Your arguments can be summarised as "You're wrong because I say you are."

[Worgenmaniac]

So many of your arguments are poorly thought out, because they simply could apply to any version of WoW.

You claim TBC players are blinded by nostalgia because they started in TBC. This does also apply to Vanilla.

You say TBC didn't have the 'fun' levelling experience of Vanilla, but it's essentially the same levelling experience minus the talent rework and new talents at level 50. It wasn't until patch 2.3 that they reworked levelling 1-60 to be around 30% quicker and lowered mount costs, and patch 2.4 when they let you get your first mount at level 30. 2.1 (or 2.3) also lowered the 1-60 elite areas to normal mobs because everyone was skipping those quests anyway. Aside from these changes the levelling experience was fundamentally the same as Vanilla's. It still took ages. You still couldn't pull too many mobs at once or you got rinsed. Murlocs were still ass.

TBC seems popular enough when I check private server numbers. My understanding from what PS players say is the reason TBC isn't so popular is because the PS community have less access to TBC's scripting than they do for Vanilla and WotLK, so the experience is far less authentic.

First, people call Vanilla the rose tinted glasses game. Now it's TBC. If we get TBC servers, you'll be calling WotLK the rose tinted glasses expansion, citing the dungeon finder, quests on the world map, and lack of awesome raids outside Ulduar and ICC, re-use of Naxx, and heirlooms as potential excuses.

People like you are, honestly, never happy. It's the classic case of 'anyone I disagree with is clearly wrong and obviously blinded by nostalgia'. Your arguments can be summarised as "You're wrong because I say you are."

Part of the reason Classic is so popular is because it is so different from Retail. TBC and WOTLK share a lot in common with retail. Raid logging in TBC is what happens on private servers. Classic is like a totally different MMO. In TBC just like BFA you can use flying mounts, do arena, or heroic dungeons. You can run around in a neutral city. In Vanilla Alliance and Horde are KOS in Org/SW. Why play TBC over BFA when you can't transmog.

[Brewhan]

TBC was the best wow will ever be imo, wow at it's prime. That and Wrath.

Also i remember pvp all over the place in TBC even with flying mounts.

Glad I got to play TBC and WOTLK super hardcore. In a realm first raiding guild and got to experience all of TBC raid fights and the first 2 raids of WOTLK before I quit due needing to go casual.

[Dergiab]

Part of the reason Classic is so popular is because it is so different from Retail. TBC and WOTLK share a lot in common with retail. Raid logging in TBC is what happens on private servers. Classic is like a totally different MMO. In TBC just like BFA you can use flying mounts, do arena, or heroic dungeons. You can run around in a neutral city. In Vanilla Alliance and Horde are KOS in Org/SW. Why play TBC over BFA when you can't transmog.

Outdoor content isn't braindead easy and leveling is still fun.

The classes feels very different towards eachother (compared to BFA) while being more balanced (compared to Classic).

Professions are useful across all levels.

The game rules are completely different in TBC compared to BFA. You still have hit chance and crushing blows for example.

I don't want to say things that would get me banned, let's just say I hope for your own sake that you are trolling and actually don't believe that TBC = BFA sans transmog.

[Wraethion]

If TBC did actually hurt the game, how come the subscriber count was always going upward back then? Wouldn't their have been dips if things such as flying or arena were actually that ruinous to the game?