Horde Striving Not To Be Warmongering = Horde Dead?

[allawyn]

But that's the point. They didn't think it was important because they were under pressure due to the orcs breaking free throughout Lordaeron. They knew the Horde was on the move and needed to do something about it, especially after knowing just how dangerous orcs are (see: First and Second Wars). I can't blame them for thinking that the orcs were the real threat.

If Thrall never rebelled, Terenas wouldn't have had to send his army, including his two best paladins, south to deal with them. Which means that he could have better prepared himself against the Scourge rampage in the north.

I just have say, the for me, they didn't take it seriously, regardless of the Orcs.

[Grazrug]

But that's the point. They didn't think it was important because they were under pressure due to the orcs breaking free throughout Lordaeron. They knew the Horde was on the move and needed to do something about it, especially after knowing just how dangerous orcs are (see: First and Second Wars). I can't blame them for thinking that the orcs were the real threat.

If Thrall never rebelled, Terenas wouldn't have had to send his army, including his two best paladins, south to deal with them. Which means that he could have better prepared himself against the Scourge rampage in the north.

Hi Arctur. Keep spamming your nonsense? Won't make it true. You need to stop. Blame the undead. Lordaeron had nothing to do with Thrall. And that's the tea

Infracted.

[Wylyth1992]

@TheVaryag "Orcs know only war." That doesn't mean constant warfare is part of Orc culture. And whether you like it or not, Orcs are not the center of the Horde.

[Yoshingo]

@TheVaryag And whether you like it or not, Orcs are not the center of the Horde.

Really now? This is what this has devolved to? Honestly trying to say the Orcs are not the center of the Horde?

The Orcs are 100% the center and heart of the Horde. Most of their customs as a faction were Orc customs, including the very fact that until 8.3 they had a Warchief. Including the way in which the last Warchief was expunged from the Horde. Including the aesthetic of the city that is their capital. Including their freaking faction symbol. Including so, so many more things.

[Wylyth1992]

Really now? This is what this has devolved to? Honestly trying to say the Orcs are not the center of the Horde?

The Orcs are 100% the center and heart of the Horde. Most of their customs as a faction were Orc customs, including the very fact that until 8.3 they had a Warchief. Including the way in which the last Warchief was expunged from the Horde. Including the aesthetic of the city that is their capital. Including so, so many more things.

They may have been the center of the Horde, but not anymore. Giving equal saying to all races of the Horde is a GOOD THING.

And regardless, Warchiefs have caused problems 2 out of 3 times (Voljin was barely allowed any time as Warchief before he died). So yeah, maybe change is needed.

[Yoshingo]

They may have been the center of the Horde, but not anymore. Giving equal saying to all races of the Horde is a GOOD THING.

And regardless, Warchiefs have caused problems 2 out of 3 times (Voljin was barely allowed any time as Warchief before he died). So yeah, maybe change is needed.

You can argue that them being the focus is or is not a bad thing, but you can't argue that they aren't the focus. Because that's just factually false.

[Powerogue]

I never got the fetishisation of the Blood Oath. It was mentioned once in one quest in Northrend, taken as gospel, and used to justify two supervillain warchiefs.

It dying is the single best thing they could've ended the faction war on. Far better than Sylvanas dying.

[mickybrighteyes]

I never got the fetishisation of the Blood Oath. It was mentioned once in one quest in Northrend, taken as gospel, and used to justify two supervillain warchiefs.

It dying is the single best thing they could've ended the faction war on. Far better than Sylvanas dying.

it's a major feature of the ruling structure of a faction. Losing it renders teh position of warchief a much different idea and is roughly on the level of removing a king and replacing the position with a senate/council instead.

IMO it's not that the blood oath justified the villain leaders it's that the writing suddenly butchered up the characters to present the next raid bosses in the story. It isn't like the same level of power and authority isn't also present in other groups that LACK the 'blood oath' though those other groups have their less than good intentions smothered under justifications after the fact and no additional story ever looking into how fucked some antics are.

[Super Dickmann]

I never got the fetishisation of the Blood Oath. It was mentioned once in one quest in Northrend, taken as gospel, and used to justify two supervillain warchiefs.

It dying is the single best thing they could've ended the faction war on. Far better than Sylvanas dying.

It's also in the comic and is important enough that the writers had to explain why your deal with Vol'jin trumped it.

It's a fundamental aspect of the Horde - its militarism and absolutism, clashing with its cultural and interest-based friction. Because it's an in-story element instead of an element of out of story plot convenience, it created stories instead of removing them. As @mickybrighteyes said, total alignment to the leader is actually seen more by those not bound by the blood oath than those who have it, see humans under Anduin, Kul Tirans and Jaina, etc.

[Mehrunes]

I never got the fetishisation of the Blood Oath. It was mentioned once in one quest in Northrend, taken as gospel, and used to justify two supervillain warchiefs.

Aside from examples given by @Super Dickmann there's also Sylvanas taking the Oath from the Horde and then its new additions. And then there's the tiny detail of the actual quest text of the quest in Northrend you mentioned (actually there's two), that refers to the Blood Oath as a tradition of the Horde. Then again it's rather obvious that you'd call actually paying attention to the story instead of merrily dismissing inconvenient details no matter how important they are "fetishization" of said details in order to dishonestly dismiss them because of the aforementioned inconvenience and discredit the people who don't pick and choose whatever part of the lore they fancy. Par for the course, really. Especially when it comes to Horde lore.

It dying is the single best thing they could've ended the faction war on. Far better than Sylvanas dying.

Yes, turning the Horde even further away from what it was and even further towards what the Alliance is is totes the "best thing"

[Raisei]

Yes, turning the Horde even further away from what it was and even further towards what the Alliance is is totes the "best thing"

Oh this searingly bright sarcasm. I ... ...ah that is better.

The idea is to remove the possibility of another insane dictator to take over and drag the Horde into the next war for their own selfish wishes, it is a sign that your leaders have paid attention and learned something from the two times this happened in the recent years, even if you refuse to see it.
The Blood Oath makes you a weapon with no will of your own, a sheep that can only follow wherever the Warchief wants you to go, you do not get to object, you do not get to question.
How you can WANT to keep being a mindless voiceless follower of whoever is put in charge next is simply beyond me. Do you WANT to be a slave to your Warchiefs wishes? Is thinking for yourself somehow a burden?

And you are also wrong that this makes the Horde closer to what the Alliance is. With this new system the Horde might actually be more progressive then the Alliance, becoming something similar to a parlamentary democracy, while the Alliance is still a monarchy after all. Sure Anduin is open to counsel and probably the furthest thing from an absolutistic ruler there is, but factually he has all the power in the Alliance for now.
Ironically the old Horde system of one allmighty Warchief - that you love and defend so much - was much closer to what the Alliance is then this new one.

[Mehrunes]

Oh this searingly bright sarcasm. I ... ...ah that is better.

The idea is to remove the possibility of another insane dictator to take over and drag the Horde into the next war for their own selfish wishes, it is a sign that your leaders have paid attention and learned something from the two times this happened in the recent years, even if you refuse to see it.
The Blood Oath makes you a weapon with no will of your own, a sheep that can only follow wherever the Warchief wants you to go, you do not get to object, you do not get to question.
How you can WANT to keep being a mindless voiceless follower of whoever is put in charge next is simply beyond me. Do you WANT to be a slave to your Warchiefs wishes? Is thinking for yourself somehow a burden?

Yeah, except for the part where removing the title of Warchief already achieves all of that. There was no need to remove both the Blood Oath and the hierarchy in the Horde it created AND the singular position of Warchief. A council of Alliance sycophants prevents an individual from dragging the Horde into a war. With the council of Alliance's slaves that have the same opinion on everything (i.e. the opinion provided by Anduin), there's no need to remove the hierarchical structure of the Horde as well.

And there's nothing to refuse to see about wars with the Alliance. Peace with the Alliance is inherently worthless. Alliance is an unhinged faction of morons. Sooner or later (judging by their track record, during an ongoing apocalypse) another Varian or another Genn will attack the Horde again for the lolz. And the spineless, limpwristed hypocrite Anduin will once again wash his hands off of that and pretend it didn't happen despite admitting to himself that Genn not only was in the wrong in Stormheim but committed high treason to commit that wrong.

Removing the Alliance from the equation is nothing but beneficial for the Horde. While the answer to that problem provided by idiots like Baine, Thrall and Saurfang's corpse is to bend over and not only not defend themselves, but either punish the people that do, try to instill racial guilt in Horde members, personally kill Horde members that don't bend over or actively team up with the Alliance.

And since the Horde isn't a bunch of automatons, people that don't want to roll with the Warchief have the capacity to betray the Horde like Saurfang et al. Or to not give the Blood Oath to the new Warchief in the first place. The Horde stood behind Sylvanas even after Saurfang called out to them to join him in treason and Alliance sycophancy because they chose to. There was no slavery or inability to think for oneself involved.

And you are also wrong that this makes the Horde closer to what the Alliance is. With this new system the Horde might actually be more progressive then the Alliance, becoming something similar to a parlamentary democracy, while the Alliance is still a monarchy after all. Sure Anduin is open to counsel and probably the furthest thing from an absolutistic ruler there is, but factually he has all the power in the Alliance for now.
Ironically the old Horde system of one allmighty Warchief - that you love and defend so much - was much closer to what the Alliance is then this new one.

You do realize the High King is nothing more than a military position, right? With Blizzard outright saying it's the same thing as the Supreme Commander position Lothar held in the past? And your understanding of parliamentary democracy leaves a lot to be desired if you think a bunch of unelected leaders of individual Horde races working in tandem constitutes a parliamentary democracy or something similar to it. Also, google what irony or alliance means if you think your last sentence was even remotely ironic.

[mickybrighteyes]

The idea is to remove the possibility of another insane dictator to take over

except this is entirely subject to the story and the path the writing decides NOT solely the blood oath.

Take a look at how the alliance has genocided basically all the horde races, sacked multiple cities, lorded superiority over the horde to include very serious "we will end you" PROMISES that literally go nowhere. The assassination/kidnap attempts that amount to nothing... etc. But it's the blood oath that makes for tyrants as the main talking point?

The nature of how KINGS work is the same as how the blood oath works but for some reason the factions bound by the blood oath are the ones MAINLY shown actually acting against their leadership. So how is this oath the main thing allowing such behavior?

And you are also wrong that this makes the Horde closer to what the Alliance is.

How is tossing out the warchief ideal and adopting a council NOT closer to what the alliance is? We're seeing what looks like the horde now being run in the same fashion as Ironforge and the whole idea people seem to thinkg the alliance is run on with mutual races working together (i say think cause the story seems more like Stormwind saying they're doing something and everyone else falling in line)

[Raisei]

Yeah, except for the part where removing the title of Warchief already achieves all of that. There was no need to remove both the Blood Oath and the hierarchy in the Horde it created AND the singular position of Warchief. A council of Alliance sycophants prevents an individual from dragging the Horde into a war. With the council of Alliance's slaves that have the same opinion on everything (i.e. the opinion provided by Anduin), there's no need to remove the hierarchical structure of the Horde as well.

And there's nothing to refuse to see about wars with the Alliance. Peace with the Alliance is inherently worthless. Alliance is an unhinged faction of morons. Sooner or later (judging by their track record, during an ongoing apocalypse) another Varian or another Genn will attack the Horde again for the lolz. And the spineless, limpwristed hypocrite Anduin will once again wash his hands off of that and pretend it didn't happen despite admitting to himself that Genn not only was in the wrong in Stormheim but committed high treason to commit that wrong.

Removing the Alliance from the equation is nothing but beneficial for the Horde. While the answer to that problem provided by idiots like Baine, Thrall and Saurfang's corpse is to bend over and not only not defend themselves, but either punish the people that do, try to instill racial guilt in Horde members, personally kill Horde members that don't bend over or actively team up with the Alliance.

And since the Horde isn't a bunch of automatons, people that don't want to roll with the Warchief have the capacity to betray the Horde like Saurfang et al. Or to not give the Blood Oath to the new Warchief in the first place. The Horde stood behind Sylvanas even after Saurfang called out to them to join him in treason and Alliance sycophancy because they chose to. There was no slavery or inability to think for oneself involved.

Geez, your comments on your faction are getting more and more extreme, take a breath. Let`s start with the obvious:

1) Without the Warchief, the Blood Oath makes no sense. Since it directly refers to the Warchief as the one wielding the individual as a weapon, there is no point to keep it, at the very least it's wording would have to be changed. But removing it also serves another function: Assuming the entire council or the majority gets corrupt, then a Blood Oath would still force people to follow them. This way there is a possibility for criticism without becoming a traitor right away.

2) You basically made my point for me. Members of the Horde that have sworn the Blood Oath have exactly two choices: Roll with whatever the Warchief wants or become a trator, hated by all your former friends and allies. So you either follow the genocidal madman or you give up everything, including your personal honor, which is quite important for many Horde members. Great choice, free will perfected. Reminds me of the german election slips in the later 1930s.
And please let us not pretend that someone like Sylvanas would ever have allowed people not to make that Oath. We see very clearly how she treats people that are not loyal to her and her alone.
Also you seem to pretend to have forgotten about the people inside of Orgrimmar that you are told to MURDER IN COLD BLOOD before the Mak'gora because they disagree with Sylvanas, I just do not see that choice you are speaking of unless you mean "Follow Sylvanas or Die" which again is not a choice at all. Especially with a necromancer in a leading position that can just use your corpse for her wishes.

3) It is cute how you keep pointing fingers at that small attack in Stormheim on 3 ships to prove the Alliance is "unhinged", when your faction has wiped out two cities and thousands of lives in the last few years alone. Please mention Camp Taurajo next, so we have the two points done where the Alliance actually for once attacked first, compared to the hundreds of ambushes, masacres and genocides commited by the Horde in the same time.
Not to mention that Sylvanas was only in Stormheim to enslave Eir and the Valkyr so that her immortality would not run out. Nothing she did benefited the Horde war effort against the Legion at all. In fact, with her actions she could have turned the Titankeeper Odyn against us, very... smart... move...
Also note how Sylvanas is doing NOTHING else in Legion, probably the propect of actually being able to die made her hide somewhere in the Undercity as the coward she is.

You do realize the High King is nothing more than a military position, right? With Blizzard outright saying it's the same thing as the Supreme Commander position Lothar held in the past? And your understanding of parliamentary democracy leaves a lot to be desired if you think a bunch of unelected leaders of individual Horde races working in tandem constitutes a parliamentary democracy or something similar to it. Also, google what irony or alliance means if you think your last sentence was even remotely ironic.

Maybe it started like that, but all portrayal in the last few years have shown Varian and then Anduin to be in charge of the Alliance. Period. Probably because we were and still are in a war situation, so the military decisions take priority. But even if that is still the case I see no difference between a Supreme Commander for military decisions and a WARchief. Considering all the Horde ever strives to do is start one war after the next and preparing for more war in the small interludes inbetween the position of WARchief is also just one for military decisions, the individual races very much govern themselves.
Unless you can show me how Sylvanas has decreed laws for the school system of Suramar and the sewage cleaning in Silvermoon my point very much stands.

Don't hang yourself on every single one of my words. I believe I said SIMILAR to parlamentary democracy, not that is was one. But the leaders of the races are generally chosen because of their merrits for their people, not in an election of course but by electing to follow them. That is a "more democratic" system then the heriditary leadership of the Alliance High Kings. That was my only point.

[mickybrighteyes]

3) It is cute how you keep pointing fingers at that small attack in Stormheim on 3 ships to prove the Alliance is "unhinged",

Well Stormheim was yet another example of Alliance forces trying to take out enemy leadership behind the scenes. I think there have been 4 times where this was made known, Stormheim being the third? Thrall, Moira, Stormheim, and Rastakhan? Actually in order it might better be stated as Moira first in the recent years though I'm not sure about some of the Cataclysm events and the various orders for such things as trying to kidnap thrall.

when your faction has wiped out two cities and thousands of lives in the last few years alone.

A moot point since both factions are responsible for similar body counts unless you forget that much of the villains of the story line were put where they are because of the Alliance's actions. Sure if we ONLY look at specific portions of the timeline and forget a lot of details it DOES skew to the horde being largely responsible... but also remember that they had to jump through a lot of hoops and blatantly ignore a LOT of shit to make the horde the 'true' aggressors of multiple wars now.

Please mention Camp Taurajo next, so we have the two points done where the Alliance actually for once attacked first,

Actually there are more than 2 such events.

Though most people restricting it to JUST camp T and Stormheim seem to take liberal use of past justification to make the various other events retaliation. Those people tend to view Stormheim as justified retaliation for Gilneas though. Technically Silithus was also agression because before player characters got involved SI:7 was already fucking with the goblins they tracked into the region (similar words as what Saurfang said as a major motivation "Nothing good comes out of Silithus").

Not really going to bring out yet another list of events (it's floating around this forum in like 4-8 threads) but the point is there are definitely more than 2 times the alliance was the bad guys starting shit.

compared to the hundreds of ambushes, masacres and genocides commited by the Horde in the same time.

Alliance diplomatic methods are so much better.... First contact? capture VIP hostage! Second step? Kill king! That'll bring them under our sway and in no way push them in with our enemies! (BFA alliance playbook!)

Not to mention that Sylvanas was only in Stormheim to enslave Eir and the Valkyr so that her immortality would not run out.

A fact that wasn't known to anyone at the time of the events of Stormheim. But lets ignore how literally every major power was in the Broken Isles was seeking mysterious powerful magic/artifacts/whatever.

Nothing she did benefited the Horde war effort against the Legion at all.

INteresting point... it's not like her efforts were stonewalled by a vangeful rage filled Worgen seeking her destruction or anything.. oh wait. Counterpoint, why was the Seventh legion spending it's main effort NOT fighting the legion and instead directing it's only real concerted effort on destroying the Forsaken fleet and killing horde leadership?

In fact, with her actions she could have turned the Titankeeper Odyn against us, very... smart... move...

A titan keeper restrained to his hold who we still have no idea what side he really sticks with. The quickness that we jump in with the being that created Helya and trust that being is something that should be noted.

Also note how Sylvanas is doing NOTHING else in Legion, probably the propect of actually being able to die made her hide somewhere in the Undercity as the coward she is.

More like how literally everyone else also has a distinct lack of presence. This is more an issue of no one writing. Than head canon reasons for not taking actions.

[Feanoro]

Well Stormheim was yet another example of Alliance forces trying to take out enemy leadership behind the scenes. I think there have been 4 times where this was made known, Stormheim being the third? Thrall, Moira, Stormheim, and Rastakhan? Actually in order it might better be stated as Moira first in the recent years though I'm not sure about some of the Cataclysm events and the various orders for such things as trying to kidnap thrall.

Considering the Horde mindlessly follows leaders, seems like taking them out is far neater than giant bloodbaths.

A moot point since both factions are responsible for similar body counts unless you forget that much of the villains of the story line were put where they are because of the Alliance's actions.

I had no idea the Burning Legion was Alliance.

Alliance diplomatic methods are so much better.... First contact? capture VIP hostage! Second step? Kill king! That'll bring them under our sway and in no way push them in with our enemies! (BFA alliance playbook!)

Complains about cherry picking. Proceeds to cherry pick to paint Talanji and Zul were somehow first contact. The Zandalari have been effectively warring on the Alliance since Cata.

A fact that wasn't known to anyone at the time of the events of Stormheim. But lets ignore how literally every major power was in the Broken Isles was seeking mysterious powerful magic/artifacts/whatever.

Let's also ignore that her motivation was selfish, while those other powers got their asses kicked and the Order Halls took over to find artifacts to stop the Legion.

INteresting point... it's not like her efforts were stonewalled by a vangeful rage filled Worgen seeking her destruction or anything.. oh wait.

Yes, good work, Genn. Last thing we need is any Titan Keepers pissed at us.

Counterpoint, why was the Seventh legion spending it's main effort NOT fighting the legion and instead directing it's only real concerted effort on destroying the Forsaken fleet and killing horde leadership?

I don't know, because the Forsaken have proven over the years that they want to kill everyone who's not them?

[mickybrighteyes]

Considering the Horde mindlessly follows leaders, seems like taking them out is far neater than giant bloodbaths.

And this isn't a trait unique to the horde

I had no idea the Burning Legion was Alliance.

Legion isn't the only big bad. Amani and Gurubashi are where they're at largely due to how their respective wars ended. Defias and Syndicate are literally organizations spawned due to Alliance actions. The horde sub factions are where they're at (tauren aside) because of their relatively position with respect to some banners bearing a remblance to this:


I mean the nation responsible for trying to wipe out island tribes because of what they resembled getting called out for trying to wipe out peaceful island tribes while somehow being lauded as the GOOD GUYS is a bit much imo.

Complains about cherry picking. Proceeds to cherry pick to paint Talanji and Zul were somehow first contact. The Zandalari have been effectively warring on the Alliance since Cata.

Could refer to the hozen then. First contact results in violence, better massacre every living Hozen we ever see and call it good! There's still first contact with the Forsaken which was apparently kill it with fire, doesn't matter that it might be sentient. And still the dealings with the BIlgewater which was no contact, kill on sight cause they're possible witnesses.

Hell, what was the position Stormwind took when Moira was taking charge after Magni turned to diamonds? Kill her and sort things out later. This is the go to method we see the Alliance use that only BARELY falls back to other methods at the last moment.

Another thing is that the Zandalari were not warring with the Alliance. Sources indicate the Zandalari nation acknowledged the Alliance and all it's factions LESS than the dwarves respected cultural burial sites. But honestly there isn't any real story on what the Zandalari thought about Zul's antics. Nevermind that Mop was yet another example of the factions shoving ourselves into the affairs of the Zul's agenda and acting like we're the victims.

Let's also ignore that her motivation was selfish, while those other powers got their asses kicked and the Order Halls took over to find artifacts to stop the Legion.

That angle matters less when the attacks that draw attention to it occur beforehand. The story dangles Sylvanas as "oh hell no, she's doing things STOP HER!" and the reasons we have to act are "well she's Sylvanas!" and then we get to postulate about moral ramifications AFTER striking first.

Yes, good work, Genn. Last thing we need is any Titan Keepers pissed at us.

But at the same time we have ANOTHER keeper level entity pissed at us. One that doesn't seem as directly constrained to shouting from their doorstep. But again that's just more on about how little we, the mere mortals of Azeroth, really understand about the keepers left behind by the Titans.

I don't know, because the Forsaken have proven over the years that they want to kill everyone who's not them?

So that validates the position of taking the world premier fighting force of the strongest nation and instead of fighting the real threat they should divert all forces against their possible BEST ally in the real war? nope, that's just bad planning.

edit: nevermind that the whole intro speech Sylvanas used to convince Saurfang is apparently getting rehashed for Tyrande to deliver

[Feanoro]

Amani and Gurubashi are where they're at largely due to how their respective wars ended. Defias and Syndicate are literally organizations spawned due to Alliance actions. The horde sub factions are where they're at (tauren aside) because of their relatively position with respect to some banners bearing a remblance to this:

Amani - Believe that was on Quel'thalas.
Gurubashi - Unless you're referring to something else, I think Horde has official credit for ZG.
Defias - Tiny thing called Onyxia. Unless the Horde cares to admit that being manipulated by magic users doesn't count?
Syndicate - Traitors who made a deal with Doomhammer's Horde. Do tell, what does the Horde think of traitors?

I mean the nation responsible for trying to wipe out island tribes because of what they resembled getting called out for trying to wipe out peaceful island tribes while somehow being lauded as the GOOD GUYS is a bit much imo.

Isn't it nice to be an omniscient player who is told the difference?

Could refer to the hozen then. First contact results in violence, better massacre every living Hozen we ever see and call it good! There's still first contact with the Forsaken which was apparently kill it with fire, doesn't matter that it might be sentient. And still the dealings with the BIlgewater which was no contact, kill on sight cause they're possible witnesses.

Hozen - Attacked us, we fight back and therefore they're all hostile. In fact, I don't think they really bothered with any deep story here.
Forsaken - Fresh from the Scourge destroying Lordaeron, surely THESE undead are totally different! Let's let them get up close and see if they rip us apart. It's always amazing how little Hordies even TRY to understand from the characters' perspective.
Bilgewater - I understand it, but I'm not defending it.

Hell, what was the position Stormwind took when Moira was taking charge after Magni turned to diamonds? Kill her and sort things out later. This is the go to method we see the Alliance use that only BARELY falls back to other methods at the last moment.

Do you really expect me to defend Varian, Blue Warchief Dipshit I? I could point out that Moira was effectively holding the Crown Prince of Stormwind hostage at the time. Trying to claim this is the default method is laughable, because if that was the case, there wouldn't even be a Horde today.

Another thing is that the Zandalari were not warring with the Alliance. Sources indicate the Zandalari nation acknowledged the Alliance and all it's factions LESS than the dwarves respected cultural burial sites. But honestly there isn't any real story on what the Zandalari thought about Zul's antics. Nevermind that Mop was yet another example of the factions shoving ourselves into the affairs of the Zul's agenda and acting like we're the victims.

Hey looky there, omniscient player knowledge! In game, the Alliance knows that Zandalari trolls with ships, troops, and supplies were stirring shit and attacking. I'm not sure if you're defending Zul trying to bring back Lei Shen here.

That angle matters less when the attacks that draw attention to it occur beforehand. The story dangles Sylvanas as "oh hell no, she's doing things STOP HER!" and the reasons we have to act are "well she's Sylvanas!" and then we get to postulate about moral ramifications AFTER striking first.

"She ALWAYS has some dirty plan, but I'm sure THIS time she's an innocent little lamb. I'll just forget that she attacked my people unprovoked, blighted my entire country,and killed my son. Surely she's just off to pick flowers!"

But at the same time we have ANOTHER keeper level entity pissed at us. One that doesn't seem as directly constrained to shouting from their doorstep. But again that's just more on about how little we, the mere mortals of Azeroth, really understand about the keepers left behind by the Titans.

First, where is Helya a Keeper? Further, Odyn may not be able to act directly, but he had no problem getting things done. Also, how will the other Keepers take it when we aid one of their enemies? In particular, when you first meet Helya (regardless of faction), she tells you you're a plaything for her zombies and dogs. I could understand Sylvie trash talking Alliance during their girl talk, but she clearly didn't do the Horde any favors either.

So that validates the position of taking the world premier fighting force of the strongest nation and instead of fighting the real threat they should divert all forces against their possible BEST ally in the real war? nope, that's just bad planning.

"Yep, let's just trust that the Horde THIS TIME isn't planning to stab us in the back. I mean, just because they did so against the Lich King, then blindly followed Warchief Daddy Issues in attacking us while Deathwing was blowing up the world, seemed to betray us on the Broken Shore, SURELY we can count on them!" Please, separate Watson and Doyle.

edit: nevermind that the whole intro speech Sylvanas used to convince Saurfang is apparently getting rehashed for Tyrande to deliver

Only difference is that spoken by any Alliance member, it's correct.

[mickybrighteyes]

Amani - Believe that was on Quel'thalas.

who also called on Lordaeron as their main backing to settle events. Golden Lions came in and one of the windrunner sisters found her a human hubby in part of this.

Gurubashi - Unless you're referring to something else, I think Horde has official credit for ZG.

First time was still part of the troll wars preceeding horde presence on the planet. Second time was joint efforts with Zandalar to deal with Hakkar. the NEXT time it was Vol'jin rallying both factions to deal with Zul's bullshit.

Defias - Tiny thing called Onyxia. Unless the Horde cares to admit that being manipulated by magic users doesn't count?

Easy to scapegoat one person when we never dealt with the nobles that did the work. Prestors weren't the only house in on this bullshit.

Syndicate - Traitors who made a deal with Doomhammer's Horde. Do tell, what does the Horde think of traitors?

Also easy to scapegoat fallen nations that were turned into the desired goods of other nations. But the story and most of the audience forget what Genn was angling for before the wall went up.

Hozen - Attacked us, we fight back and therefore they're all hostile. In fact, I don't think they really bothered with any deep story here.

Yes this is very much true. however the amusing point is how Alliance presence or trresspassing into territory is what's focused on and then we look at the Rogers approach to diplomacy (kill everything she doesn't like and sort things out later) as the typical approach.

Forsaken - Fresh from the Scourge destroying Lordaeron, surely THESE undead are totally different! Let's let them get up close and see if they rip us apart. It's always amazing how little Hordies even TRY to understand from the characters' perspective.

I'd suggest actually taking an empathetic pov when you're argument for an apathetic pov is to be empathetic... just my two cents. It's not like it's unheard of for magic users in the area to dabble in undeath... you know, the nearby city of arcane magisters holding the best source of arcane knowledge might have been a bit above such petty thinking and might actually want to look into such things (a plot point suggesting such is present in classic but goes nowhere as parties associated are deemed traitors of the Undercity by that point.

Do you really expect me to defend Varian, Blue Warchief Dipshit I? I could point out that Moira was effectively holding the Crown Prince of Stormwind hostage at the time.

ACtually Moira did NOT have Anduin hostage at the time because he had fled and passed word to Varian himself. Anduin had to pull one of his own tricks later to sneak back in and tell Varian to NOT kill Moira

Trying to claim this is the default method is laughable, because if that was the case, there wouldn't even be a Horde today.

Well they tried to kidnap thrall to prove a point, tried killing Sylvanas (to which the same level of reasoning as used regarding the Zandalari can apply here as well), and then take a look at the handling of Zandalari in BFA. It seems we havea running track record on exactly this method being a main stay in the alliance diplomatic playbook.

Hey looky there, omniscient player knowledge! In game, the Alliance knows that Zandalari trolls with ships, troops, and supplies were stirring shit and attacking. I'm not sure if you're defending Zul trying to bring back Lei Shen here.

Alliance also has the foremost renowned intelligence agency that seems to be completely in the dark about world politics outside what they themselves are after. This isn't a defence of Zul's actions, it's putting some perspective on our actions. In Pandaria we jump head first into events we don't know and to be honest the actions we interrupted were effectively what either faction is doing in BFA... Meeting up with an old ally for mutual benefit.

"She ALWAYS has some dirty plan, but I'm sure THIS time she's an innocent little lamb. I'll just forget that she attacked my people unprovoked, blighted my entire country,and killed my son. Surely she's just off to pick flowers!"

Lets completely forget Sylvanas didn't command the conflict being referenced and assume any discussion of lack of evidence means the person wants to believe Sylvanas is an innocent little lamb... please cut the bullshit.

Preemptive self defense is, in my opinion, one of the single worst... most evil actions someone can take. Just because someone thinks they have a motive to act, a real gut feeling even... is not justification to take action. Get some proof BEFORE taking action, fine. But if that proof only becomes known because of someone taking action before proof is known it renders the position moot.

Stormheim is still the unprovoked attack on Forsaken ships by the 7th Legion... but it's ok cause they later learned Sylvanas actually WAS present and doing things (note this wasn't known prior to the attack)

First, where is Helya a Keeper? Further, Odyn may not be able to act directly, but he had no problem getting things done. Also, how will the other Keepers take it when we aid one of their enemies? In particular, when you first meet Helya (regardless of faction), she tells you you're a plaything for her zombies and dogs. I could understand Sylvie trash talking Alliance during their girl talk, but she clearly didn't do the Horde any favors either.

First, I said Keeper Level entity. She is a titan watcher and empowered to rule over at least one realm and is the previous Val'kyr Queen. Given how other watchers had things turn out... well ANY of them are enough to put the factions in dire straights. Yes Helya has terrible bedside manner and her own shit... but remember how she's kind of forced where she's at and by whom and how we'd been working with that very being the entire time. Also, insert powerful god like being looking down on mere mortals trope.

"Yep, let's just trust that the Horde THIS TIME isn't planning to stab us in the back. I mean, just because they did so against the Lich King, then blindly followed Warchief Daddy Issues in attacking us while Deathwing was blowing up the world, seemed to betray us on the Broken Shore, SURELY we can count on them!" Please, separate Watson and Doyle.

I said that in counter point to you're previous argument about how someone wasn't towing the line and doing their own thing... which is a bit better than unprovoked attacks on would be allies... which you're now going to point out trust issues... Though when you site ICC, do remember Varian had declared war prior to such events while attempting to attack an already weakened horde retaking their city... a war that never did get resolved and was ongoing through the cataclysm. As for broken shore, it turns out the group providing the intel was giving bad intel anyways so lets thank the premier intelligence agency for doing exactly not their job and selling everyone out ^.^ good job.

Only difference is that spoken by any Alliance member, it's correct.

the problem is that the writing team actually believes this.

[Raisei]

Well Stormheim was yet another example of Alliance forces trying to take out enemy leadership behind the scenes. I think there have been 4 times where this was made known, Stormheim being the third? Thrall, Moira, Stormheim, and Rastakhan? Actually in order it might better be stated as Moira first in the recent years though I'm not sure about some of the Cataclysm events and the various orders for such things as trying to kidnap thrall.

You make it look like Sylavanas and Genn did not have a history before this. He knows exactly what kind of person she is, what she has done till this point. This includes murdering halve of Genn's people with a lethal chemical for agonizing death, killing his son, stealing his country and as far as he knows at this point she personally called off the Horde forces on the Broken Shore to let the Alliance be wiped out, which resulted in the death of a dear friend of his.

It is NOT an "unprovoked" attack, Sylvanas did everything in her power to make enemies out of her Alliance neighbors and happily gloated over Genn holding his murdered son. If you spend your entire undead existence being an evil genocidal madwoman bombing people with chemical weapons then you do not get to play the "Now that attack was uncalled for!"-card. You just don't. That would be like Kil'jaeden meeting you at the end of ToS and holding you a speech about how you violated his personal rights by coming aboard his ship and killing his demon crew. It is a laughable defense.

The same rule applies to the Azerite operation in Silithus. Once it was clear what that stuff can do, there was no way anyone would believe that Sylvanas would use it for anything less then building more deadly weapons, because that is what Sylvanas does. Every time. And lo and behold it is EXACTLY what she wants. Keeping this stuff out of her hands, that is what we call "justified".

A moot point since both factions are responsible for similar body counts unless you forget that much of the villains of the story line were put where they are because of the Alliance's actions. Sure if we ONLY look at specific portions of the timeline and forget a lot of details it DOES skew to the horde being largely responsible... but also remember that they had to jump through a lot of hoops and blatantly ignore a LOT of shit to make the horde the 'true' aggressors of multiple wars now.

Sure, please point me to the civilian population centers the Alliance has nuked in the last few years. At the moment we have Stormheim (which is not a civilian target and invalid by my above statement anyway) and Taurajo (a mere Outpost plus the civilians were actively spared and refugess helped by the Alliance general in charge). We had Arthas attacking Quel'thalas, but he was mind-controlled by the Lich King, who at that time was an ORC. Even in Dazar'alor we only ever attacked warriors and even offered the King a chance for surrender after his troops were beaten. And afterwards we even gave you time to grief instead of crushing the Horde once and for all...

Alliance diplomatic methods are so much better.... First contact? capture VIP hostage! Second step? Kill king! That'll bring them under our sway and in no way push them in with our enemies! (BFA alliance playbook!)

Right, the Zandalari have been hostile towards EVERYONE for the last decade, succeeding in bringing back Lei Chen and attacking Pandaria with the Mogu.

Keeping Talanji as a prisoner is a very smart move to prevent hostilities. It was actually very common in the middle ages and early modern to "request" the children of your beaten enemies to be raised on your court as hostages. Those children were usually treated fine, but they ensured that their parents would not be dumb enough to try to attack again. For a Fantasy example take the Greyjoy boy in GoTh.

INteresting point... it's not like her efforts were stonewalled by a vangeful rage filled Worgen seeking her destruction or anything.. oh wait. Counterpoint, why was the Seventh legion spending it's main effort NOT fighting the legion and instead directing it's only real concerted effort on destroying the Forsaken fleet and killing horde leadership?

Yeah, I am so sad Sylvanas did not get to enslave the Val'kyr. I am sure it would have been to the benefit of everyone on Azeroth... oh wait! No, no it would not have been. She would likely have wiped out every living being on the planet by now. Such a shame her effort were ruined by that bad bad worgen. Bad Genn, saving everyone from God Sylvanas is pfui!

A titan keeper restrained to his hold who we still have no idea what side he really sticks with. The quickness that we jump in with the being that created Helya and trust that being is something that should be noted.

Never said I trusted Odyn or that I do not blame him for Helya. In fact I find him very annoying and arrogant. However, he is also the guy that can vaporize a Legion Star Destroyer with one spear. I think we are better off not having that against us on top of the Legion razing our planet already. Obviously Sylvanas doesn't care about either of those enemies as long as she get's her Val'kyr, even Anduin is spending more time on the frontlines then she does.

More like how literally everyone else also has a distinct lack of presence. This is more an issue of no one writing. Than head canon reasons for not taking actions.

We are given reasons why Anduin isn't around though. Because Genn and Velen kept him confided in Stormwind to protect him and keep him away from the front. They are furious when he travels to the frontlines to see it. Which is only too logical. The Alliance can at this time not risk to loose Anduin, as there is no one left in the line of succession. He has no children yet and also no brothers and sisters.
Of Sylvanas we hear not a peep and if she would die, the next Warchief just takes over. The only reason to not be on the frontline with her considerable powers is that she did not want to risk herself.

And about a previous post of yours:

The nature of how KINGS work is the same as how the blood oath works but for some reason the factions bound by the blood oath are the ones MAINLY shown actually acting against their leadership. So how is this oath the main thing allowing such behavior?

How is tossing out the warchief ideal and adopting a council NOT closer to what the alliance is? We're seeing what looks like the horde now being run in the same fashion as Ironforge and the whole idea people seem to thinkg the alliance is run on with mutual races working together (i say think cause the story seems more like Stormwind saying they're doing something and everyone else falling in line)

You kinda contradict yourself. You say the Blood Oath works the same as having a King like the Alliance, which is what I said too. Then you say that dropping the Blood Oath and Warchief is making the Horde more like the Alliance, directly contradicting the first statement. Which is it?