Alien Covenant

[Kokolums]

Jurassic Park is another one of those films that is basically a disaster movie. People want to see ordinary people dropped in with dinosaurs to see how they react. The Walking Dead is the same thing. People want to see ordinary people dropped in with zombies to see how they react.

I always thought the correct approach to Jurassic Park sequels would be to do a standalone alternate Earth where Columbus sails to America in 1492 and finds dinosaurs instead of natives inhabiting the New World. They could explore an alternate history where european attempt to establish colonies fortified enough to defend against trex or raptors without help from modern weapons. Because the people want to see ordinary people against monsters.

[nocturnus]

I probably would have had a lot less of a problem with Prometheus and Covenant if it wasn't set in the Alien universe.

Just like "How did Han get his surname Solo" or "Why is Chewbacca called Chewie" some things don't need to be explained IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -



I really disliked Alien 3 in cinemas, found it confusing...but when the long version that was closer to what Fincher intended came out, I liked it a lot better. Sure, killing of Newt and Hicks...wow...yeah...what a decision! I still don't know what to make of it and if you cannot get over that, you will always hate the film. In the end, it is indeed Alien and Aliens, T1 and T2 which I love out of these franchises. But I am Fincher fanboi - I just love most of his films and even the "weaker" ones bring something unique to the table. I wonder what he could have made of Alien 3 if it wasn't his first feature film and if he had more of a say during the script and pre-production phase.

[Eosia]

I saw Alien Covenant again and I had forgotten how horrible it was. There's a lot about this film that's reductive but what bothered me most is the Xenomorph's flawed 'evolution'.

But it is not really flawed evolution. He is actually creating a better means of contagion.

If you have seen the Director's Cut of Alien, there is the infamous "egg scene" that occurs in the middle of the climactic chase where Ripley is trying to get to the shuttle but the Xenomorph is in the way. In that scene she climbs down a ladder and finds that she is in its nest. When she shines her light she sees Brett, the first victim of the grown xenomorph, being converted into an egg. A noise gets her attention and she sees Dallas alive but weakened and cocooned. The scene was cut because it broke up the pace and tension of the chase

But what is happening is that the Xenomorph that burst out of Kane is a drone. Its first task is to get two victims, one to convert into a queen egg and another to serve as host for her. The process went to completion in Aliens where Newt's father was the first victim. Which is why we saw Warrior Xenomorphs as well as Drones. They seek out more victims to serve as hosts... like the colonists of LV-426.

So now the creature is able to procreate rather than depend on a host being infected with a spore.

The eggs also possess a crude intelligence. They know when an egg is laid or hatches. If neither occurs for too long, it knows the nest is dead and so it knows to produce a drone to kickstart the cycle again.

The problem with Covenant is that it discarded everything we knew from Prometheus. The spore does not infect and cause a Neomorph to grow inside the host. The Neomorph there was implanted via the giant "facehugger" that the medical pod removed from Shaw. That and it relied too much on slasher movie cliches and such.

I really disliked Alien 3 in cinemas, found it confusing...but when the long version that was closer to what Fincher intended came out, I liked it a lot better. Sure, killing of Newt and Hicks...wow...yeah...what a decision! I still don't know what to make of it and if you cannot get over that, you will always hate the film.

The problem with Alien 3 is on its face, it would never have happened. There is no way that egg would have opened because no viable hosts were nearby. Where would the Queen from Aliens have put it? She never got away from the shuttle pretty much. She impales Bishop coming out of the back of it and then goes for Newt when Ripley suits up in the loader. So the egg would have had to have been in plain sight.

Alien Resurrection has the same problem. How was a blood sample supposed to survive on a planet with no refrigeration? Morse specifically mentions this. Plus the facility was shut down and abandoned. Also, wouldn't you think that the Weyland-Yutani folks there scour the place first?

[Kokolums]

But it is not really flawed evolution. He is actually creating a better means of contagion.

If you have seen the Director's Cut of Alien, there is the infamous "egg scene" that occurs in the middle of the climactic chase where Ripley is trying to get to the shuttle but the Xenomorph is in the way. In that scene she climbs down a ladder and finds that she is in its nest. When she shines her light she sees Brett, the first victim of the grown xenomorph, being converted into an egg. A noise gets her attention and she sees Dallas alive but weakened and cocooned. The scene was cut because it broke up the pace and tension of the chase

But what is happening is that the Xenomorph that burst out of Kane is a drone. Its first task is to get two victims, one to convert into a queen egg and another to serve as host for her. The process went to completion in Aliens where Newt's father was the first victim. Which is why we saw Warrior Xenomorphs as well as Drones. They seek out more victims to serve as hosts... like the colonists of LV-426.

So now the creature is able to procreate rather than depend on a host being infected with a spore.

The eggs also possess a crude intelligence. They know when an egg is laid or hatches. If neither occurs for too long, it knows the nest is dead and so it knows to produce a drone to kickstart the cycle again.

The problem with Covenant is that it discarded everything we knew from Prometheus. The spore does not infect and cause a Neomorph to grow inside the host. The Neomorph there was implanted via the giant "facehugger" that the medical pod removed from Shaw. That and it relied too much on slasher movie cliches and such.



The problem with Alien 3 is on its face, it would never have happened. There is no way that egg would have opened because no viable hosts were nearby. Where would the Queen from Aliens have put it? She never got away from the shuttle pretty much. She impales Bishop coming out of the back of it and then goes for Newt when Ripley suits up in the loader. So the egg would have had to have been in plain sight.

Alien Resurrection has the same problem. How was a blood sample supposed to survive on a planet with no refrigeration? Morse specifically mentions this. Plus the facility was shut down and abandoned. Also, wouldn't you think that the Weyland-Yutani folks there scour the place first?

Almost none of the general audience understands any of this.

[Shadowferal]

This didn't stop it from becoming a great addition to the series.

Alien 3 was the ballsiest of the series;

Really?

Alien 3 Is the Ballsiest Sequel of All Time

David Fincher's controversial 1992 sequel could never be made today

Very few people rally around Alien 3, and for good reason. When the highly anticipated sequel crashed into theaters on May 22, 1992, it didn’t take long for word to get out about how the film was so bleak and miserable. After waiting six long years for a follow-up to James Cameron’s epic 1986 sequel, Aliens, fans were immediately dropped into a cruel and terrifying world, one filled with prisoners, rapists, and indistinguishable British actors. Even worse, by the time the credits rolled, every one of their favorite characters was either dead or deactivated — and there was zero chance of them returning.

Game over, man. Game over.

Needless to say, fans despised the film and critics were mostly mixed (mostly), and its legacy hasn’t exactly improved. Director David Fincher, who made his proper debut with the film, has since disowned it altogether, citing studio interference and manic deadlines. Michael Biehn, who played Corporal Dwayne Hicks in the previous film, was so upset he was killed off-screen that he demanded the studio pay what he earned for his work in Aliens just for using his likeness here. And then there’s Cameron, the loudest of them all, who has gone on record saying the decision to kill Newt, Hicks, and Bishop was “dumb” and felt like a “slap in the face to the fans.” In some respects, he’s not wrong.

--------------

[nocturnus]

But it is not really flawed evolution. He is actually creating a better means of contagion.

Better? It's less efficient in every way; The eggs are obviously menacing ergo easier to avoid and the fertilisation process is more involving. Imagine Aliens, but in stead of having all eggs bundled up in one misty, scary room, you'd have virtually hidden spore sacs all over the corridors which wouldn't require Xenomorphs to hunt for hosts. No one would've survived that. No one.

Would it have made a better film? Hell no. Eggs and face huggers are responsible for most of the dread in Alien.

When she shines her light she sees Brett, the first victim of the grown xenomorph, being converted into an egg.

Regular Xenomorphs are indeed believed to be able to create eggs to preserve the species. This is a convoluted cocooning process which requires human hosts and a prolongued gestating period. Again, spore sacs would be faster, cleaner and stealthier.

But what is happening is that the Xenomorph that burst out of Kane is a drone. Its first task is to get two victims, one to convert into a queen egg and another to serve as host for her. The process went to completion in Aliens where Newt's father was the first victim. Which is why we saw Warrior Xenomorphs as well as Drones. They seek out more victims to serve as hosts... like the colonists of LV-426.

Everyone knows what the workers do; they find hosts for face huggers to impregnate, ultimately to multiply their ranks. You're attempting to shed light on a glow stick.

The problem with Alien 3 is on its face, it would never have happened. There is no way that egg would have opened because no viable hosts were nearby. Where would the Queen from Aliens have put it? She never got away from the shuttle pretty much. She impales Bishop coming out of the back of it and then goes for Newt when Ripley suits up in the loader. So the egg would have had to have been in plain sight.

The theory is that one of the Xenomorphs hid the egg or eggs on the ship.

Really?

Yes, really.

You go ahead and dislike it though, it was the popular thing to do back in '92, when people needed happy endings and heroes surving against all odds.

From the article you linked:

"Yes, the whole massacre felt like a slap in the face, but it was hardly a dumb choice as Cameron has since argued. It was risky, sure, but not dumb. Because let’s be fair, Alien 3 isn’t a dumb movie. It’s inordinately smart for a second sequel and quite an anomaly by today’s standards."

"Cameron’s action-friendly sequel was such a juggernaut smash, making it easy for moviegoers to forget that the franchise originally had its roots in unnerving, gruesome horror. But it’s not a secret that the first film is a haunted house movie set in space, and Alien 3 returned to that aesthetic, only the haunted house was dropped down to a gritty hell, where not even the commissaries, medical wards, or cryo tanks were safe spaces for those running away from Xenomorphs."

Alien's unnerving atmosphere over Aliens' guns-a-blazing action, all day, any day. Alien 3 went back to that recipe, thank goodness.

[Shadowferal]

I'm sorry but your opinion that Aliens 3 was any good at all is just a failure on all levels.
It sucked ass...and subsequent sequels are near that kind of suckage.

[RCA]

The theory is that one of the Xenomorphs hid the egg or eggs on the ship.

Think this is what's gets me with the movie. No idea how any eggs or face huggers would be on that ship with Newt, Hicks and Ripley. Pretty sure the queen doesn't carry around eggs and they were all pretty much burnt up with the flamethrower. Overall I was just pointing out that the longer version makes for the better movie when it comes to 3. Oh well we all have our opinions.

- - - Updated - - -

I probably would have had a lot less of a problem with Prometheus and Covenant if it wasn't set in the Alien universe.

Just like "How did Han get his surname Solo" or "Why is Chewbacca called Chewie" some things don't need to be explained IMHO.

- - - Updated - - -



I really disliked Alien 3 in cinemas, found it confusing...but when the long version that was closer to what Fincher intended came out, I liked it a lot better. Sure, killing of Newt and Hicks...wow...yeah...what a decision! I still don't know what to make of it and if you cannot get over that, you will always hate the film. In the end, it is indeed Alien and Aliens, T1 and T2 which I love out of these franchises. But I am Fincher fanboi - I just love most of his films and even the "weaker" ones bring something unique to the table. I wonder what he could have made of Alien 3 if it wasn't his first feature film and if he had more of a say during the script and pre-production phase.

Agreed. Would have been more polished than what we got, and it was an interesting read on what happened during production. Anyway I guess were off topic from the newest installment.

[nocturnus]

I'm sorry but your opinion that Aliens 3 was any good at all is just a failure on all levels.
It sucked ass...and subsequent sequels are near that kind of suckage.

Great. Now that we've established that your opinion is the only one that matters, we can stop conversing about our impressions. Especially since you conveyed it so eloquently. You should become a writer.

You like 'crowd pleasers', good for you! Ergo, stick to Disney and its surviving heroes, princesses and woodland creatures, if that helps you sleep at night.

Think this is what's gets me with the movie. No idea how any eggs or face huggers would be on that ship with Newt, Hicks and Ripley. Pretty sure the queen doesn't carry around eggs and they were all pretty much burnt up with the flamethrower. Overall I was just pointing out that the longer version makes for the better movie when it comes to 3. Oh well we all have our opinions.

Agreed. Would have been more polished than what we got, and it was an interesting read on what happened during production. Anyway I guess were off topic from the newest installment.

It could've been the queen, she was in the Sulaco, after all. I don't believe that though; this theory seems to have too many holes. Some avid fans also suggest it could've been Bishop. Stasis interrupted gives a more detailed explanation, which seems quite acceptable as well.

Overall I was just pointing out that the longer version makes for the better movie when it comes to 3.

Absolutely. Alien 3 Special Assembly was definitely the best version!

[nocturnus]

Oh yeah, this is now about Alien 3 and for some people how angry they get get that somebody else has a different (and thus invalid) opinion

There'll always be "your opinion is wrong" people. These people mostly get agitated because they start doubting their opinion based on what they hear or read. Maybe someone should tell them that's a good thing

Cherish the people that make you question your beliefs and opinions, for they are the ones that trigger enlightenment.

[nocturnus]

True. Too bad (since forums?) it turned from debating each others points and maybe seeing it from another perspective into "you are stupid because you disagree" - obviously not always but more than I care for.

The video you linked was a nice watch. But it also brought up moments from when I watched the film the first time and what confused me.

Also there are times for movies where the heroes fail or die (Brazil, Descent, The Ting, Invasion of the Bodysnatchers). Sometimes it was in the script and changed fafter test audiences hated it (imho for the better in True Romance). But yeah...big gamble in Alien 3 there. Even worse in Alien Covenant if you ask me. "Oh...our hero from Prometheus got killed off screen - here is your surrogate Ripley"

Yeah, the special assembly cut should've been the one they released in cinemas from the get-go.

I might have made the mistake of putting Prometheus on the same heap of steaming feces along with Covenant. Prometheus really wasn't that bad. It actually had quite interesting symbolism which you'll most likely only spot if you grew up as a Christian.

[BloodyAngel12]

While Alien 3 never reached the heights that Alien and Aliens did, it was still an interesting attempt at continuing the franchise. The cast was pretty cool and even had Pete Postlewaite a staple of british acting. They even use british slang with so many "Wankers" being used. I was sad when they hit the reset on Ripleys character progression by killing Newt and Hicks.The only thing that bugs me is the use of CGI for the Alien, which dates the film badly. Should have gone with practical effects like the previous 2 films.

Its worth reading William Gibsons unused script for Alien 3 which was turned into a graphic novel.

On Prometheus and Covenent i just ignore there existence.

[Kokolums]

While Alien 3 never reached the heights that Alien and Aliens did, it was still an interesting attempt at continuing the franchise. The cast was pretty cool and even had Pete Postlewaite a staple of british acting.

Few people know that the Alien 3 character of Golic (who was the mentally disturbed prisoner who had a bigger role that was reduced in editing) was played by Paul McGann. McGann played the 8th Doctor in Doctor Who.

[nocturnus]

While Alien 3 never reached the heights that Alien and Aliens did, it was still an interesting attempt at continuing the franchise. The cast was pretty cool and even had Pete Postlewaite a staple of british acting. They even use british slang with so many "Wankers" being used. I was sad when they hit the reset on Ripleys character progression by killing Newt and Hicks.The only thing that bugs me is the use of CGI for the Alien, which dates the film badly. Should have gone with practical effects like the previous 2 films.

Its worth reading William Gibsons unused script for Alien 3 which was turned into a graphic novel.

On Prometheus and Covenent i just ignore there existence.

Oh man, the CGI was horrible. That said, even nowadays CGI can be horrible. I'll look up Gibson's script; I loved Alien 3 so you piqued my interest!

- - - Updated - - -

Few people know that the Alien 3 character of Golic (who was the mentally disturbed prisoner who had a bigger role that was reduced in editing) was played by Paul McGann.

Golic was awesome. Most characters were and unlike Aliens (the marine scenes were utterly ludicrous, "look into my eye"), Alien 3 actually involved great acting. Charles Dance, for example, was yet again excellent as Clemens.

[RCA]

Oh yeah, this is now about Alien 3 and for some people how angry they get get that somebody else has a different (and thus invalid) opinion

Lol should we discuss Alien 4 next, cuz that plot is even more farfetched (if I remember correctly Ripley gets cloned [from a found DNA strand] and is the Alien mother to the ones in the complex). Feel like we all be on the same side of that movie. Anyway, I don't hate Alien 3 but my honest opinion of the movie is that it is choppy and it just begins very off confusing to me (aliens on that ship for no explainable reason), the setting and idea was ok with me. Oh well I'll state it again, it's ok for us to have opinions on these old movies . I'm Probably biased to "Aliens" due to the army/marine feel to it, and shit that was before StarCraft!

- - - Updated - - -

On Prometheus and Covenent i just ignore there existence.

I agree with you they were both disappointing. I felt like the focus of both those movies were about how that androids will divert from the plan and enact on their own, which was prevalent in the first movie. But then again he was following orders from the company trying to transfer the specimen back.

Prometheus>Covenant, but both movies wasn't something I was satisfied with. Covenant was just hogwash, to bring the British out of me. Up there with Alien 4 imo.

- - - Updated - - -

Few people know that the Alien 3 character of Golic (who was the mentally disturbed prisoner who had a bigger role that was reduced in editing) was played by Paul McGann. McGann played the 8th Doctor in Doctor Who.

A greater role shown for Golic should have been kept in that movie. Otherwise the character just feels off when watching. Didn't know the Doctor Who connection, that's pretty cool.

[Mirishka]

I saw Alien Covenant again and I had forgotten how horrible it was. There's a lot about this film that's reductive but what bothered me most is the Xenomorph's flawed 'evolution'.

Indeed, it's more a declination, a deterioration than it is an evolution. Think about it; the 'Neomorph's' seeds were carried by small, barely visible fungal sacs that release a cloud of nigh invisible spores upon contact. Breathing these spores results in infection or insemination of the 'Neomorph' (why new?), which quickly grows inside the chest cavity.

David engineered the Xenomorph from the Neomorph, which already was a devastating organism with a perfectly stealthy system of contagion, to be deadlier, right? But it makes spreading the infection exponentially harder; It's easy to miss a tiny fungal spore but you'd be hard pressed not to notice a huge, slimey and especially menacing egg sac (except of course, if you're an idiot captain that willingly shoves his head inside merely because the obvious bad-guy says it's 'perfectly safe'). It's easy to breath a cloud of spores you can't see and carry on unaware of what happened, essentially acting as a human horse of Troy, but again, you'd be hard pressed not to raise a few alarms when a disgusting creature shoved its proboscis down your throat.

I won't even delve into how horrible the dialogues were and how incredibly stupid a group of would-be scientists and security experts were; every decision they made from the moment they received that distress signal was absolutely dimwitted.

No, Ridley Scott doesn't deserve any praise for this steamy pile of garbage. It's a mockery to the series and a slap in the face to its fans. He should be ashamed.

What do you guys think?

Its a garbage movie that single-handedly ruined the franchise, is what I think. To think that we got this instead of Neill Blomkamp's sequel to Aliens (the one that would have ignored all the insanely bad decisions in Alien3/Resurrection) makes me physically ill.

[nocturnus]

(aliens on that ship for no explainable reason)

There are plenty of explainable reasons though. Some have been mentioned here, others can be found by reading theories or looking up Colonial Marines' story line.

Probably biased to "Aliens" due to the army/marine feel to it

Many people are. Aliens is easy to like, being a by-the-book crowd pleaser; lots of shooting, the baddies mostly die, mostly, the douchebag gets a taste of its own medicine, a subtle hint at romance and the cool people survive whilst having saved the innocent child. They didn't take any risks with this film, that much is clear.

Bad acting and inexplicably atrocious lines aside, it was a great flick. It just didn't convey that sense of dread and horror Alien did. Alien 3 reintroduced that, paired with great acting and some of the most iconic scenes in the series.

Anyway, opinions, right?

Covenant was just hogwash, to bring the British out of me. Up there with Alien 4 imo.

I don't know man, I really liked Alien Resurrection. Heck, even Giger loved it, so I'm not ashamed! It was dark, gorey and at times funny without sacrificing the chillingly creepy atmosphere that is inseperable from the Xenomorphs. Plus, Winona Ryder, c'mon, you can't not have had a crush on her as a kid.

Jokes aside, Resurrection's cast was pretty amazing and Ripley was just marvelous (Sigourney's portayal of her moreso); partially becoming that which she hated most after the memorable quote from Alien 3: "You've been in my life so long, I can't remember anything else.".

Then we have the water scene, which is still beautiful by today's standards and the humanoid Xenomorph which was absolutely terrifying, haunting even (those eyes >.<).

Its a garbage movie that single-handedly ruined the franchise, is what I think. To think that we got this instead of Neill Blomkamp's sequel to Aliens (the one that would have ignored all the insanely bad decisions in Alien3/Resurrection) makes me physically ill.

Nothing can ruin the franchise, not even Covenant.

[nocturnus]

Hey, why not...make it an Alien megathread

That's actually a very good idea...

@moderators: Would you mind turning the title in an Alien megathread?