Mega-Thread: Impeachment Proceedings & Inquiry of Trump

[Skroe]

Want to link how John Ratcliffe destroyed Taylor's testimony also?

Bunch of baloney, lol.

We have Trump dead to rights and the Trumpublicans know it. Which is why they're engaging in stunts and not attacking the process.

Wait for the public testimony. We get to enter into the historical record what Trump did so that our children and their children learned what people like you gave up their integrity for.

Because make no mistake... Trump will not be removed by the Senate. I think few people believe that, even daresay, we hope. But we are doing as we'd say we'd do, and are laying a historical marker that at this time, and this place, many, many Americans stood against the likes of you. Stood for morality. Stood for ethics. Stood for American principles. And stood for the Constitution.

It took less a decade for the judgement of history to destroy the reputation of an entire generation of American lawmakers, opinonmakers and organizations that enabled the Iraq War. Trump? Trump won't take nearly that long.

[Draco-Onis]

GOP Senators express concern that the focus on impeaching Trump for all that stuff he did will prevent any legislation from being passed.

"Honestly, it's going to be hard for McConnell to block everything when nothing comes to him," they didn't say but let's read between the lines here. "'Our only job was to not vote because McConnell wouldn't take up the legislation. Now, we can't even do that. Have you read the last thing McConnell proposed? It's a 'warning' about Syria. Not sanctions, not a resolution, not a condemnation, and it has zero legal effect."

The most laughable part about this is lots of bills are sitting in the house and senate including election protection bills but Moscow Mitch is blocking all of them.

[Julez]

It's looking like John Durham will be bringing criminal charges against Obama officials fairly soon. He has suponea power and will be impaneling a grand jury. The Democrats should hurry along with their impeachment, their time is quickly running out.

[Molis]

It's looking like John Durham will be bringing criminal charges against Obama officials fairly soon. He has suponea power and will be impaneling a grand jury. The Democrats should hurry along with their impeachment, their time is quickly running out.

Given up on Hillary and now its what about Obama?

[Skroe]

Serious crimes like killing American citizens with drones? Giving drug cartels guns and having those guns kill an American federal agent? Lying to congress about Paula Jones? Hell Reagan was guiltier then sin for the contras and nothing happened to him. These are not serious.

I'm going to go against my better judgement and try to explain this. I doubt it will stick.

First the things named - potential wrong doing or blown up controversies or actual crimes - have no bearing on this, other than that they paved the way for Trump's abuses of power. In a sense, you are absolutely correct and it is something I have repeatedly said in this forum. Reagan should have been impeached for Iran-Control. Clinton should have been removed because of his deeply inappropriate relationship with a subordinate and perjury. Bush Administration figures should have been prosecuted for war crimes relating to the conduct of the Iraq War. And a crime with MANY authors - the fact the War against ISIS was done in violation of the War Powers Act by a President (Obama) who didn't request an Authorization for Use of Military Force, and a bipartisan Congress not inclined to demand he ask for one - is something that I've talked about on this forum for many years.

This country does not hold powerful people to account or demand the rules be followed rigidly. We have abandoned even the pretext of being a nation of laws. We go easy on Bill Clinton because we like him. We go easy on Reagan because removing two Presidents in 10 years would have been traumatic. We go easy on Obama/Congress because it's just easier if nobody asks too many questions as to why the War Powers Act can be put aside.

No more.

We are here because all of that and more. Because we did not enforce the law and punish wrong doing. Because we embraced expediency and ran from consequences. And make no mistake: every bit of wrong doing on that list occurred, at least in part, because the Presidency grew in power and declined in accountability.

And where did it get us? Donald Trump's Ukraine bribery scandal.

Make no mistake. It is the largest scandal in American history. By far. Watergate, Teapot dome and Iran Contra aren't even close.

Let's put it in simple terms:

The President of the United States tells a foreign ally that is under attack by Russia, one of our two chief adversaries, that unless they help him in generating an attack on a domestic political opponent, he will block the Congressionally authorized and appropriated military and economic aid.


That is a High crime the founders would have recognized. And while it is not technical treason due to the fact that the Constitution explicitly defines it to prevent the crime's abuse as a political tool (something Trump has attempted), it is certainly a kind of moral treason. It is a betrayal of this country's interests, principles security in the name of selfish political advancement.

Trump will be held accountable because there are few bigger abuses of power than the one he committed.

He cannot be President anymore for the rule of law and the constitution to have any legitimacy in this country. I'm sorry, but that's how it goes. He betrayed YOU. Let's be clear about that. Nobody forced him to commit this act. He chose to do it. And he did it over the Summer.

The inquiry is producing a shit load of nothing. You are getting one sided information because Schiff will not let people talk about the investigation and then leaks what he wants. There is a reason that everything is hidden, because they don't want you to know the behind the scenes chicanery they are trying.

He is utilizing investigation techniques put in place by Republicans, particularly during the Benghazi hearings when they held closed hearings. There is a need to protect intelligence, especially as it relates to Russia.

Furthermore this is a complaint (and not a good one) with an expiration date, because public hearings are coming. What will you say then? Exactly.

The hearings have produced a mountain of data, and a clear narrative as to the criminal activity.

Today it was announced that the whistleblower who started this whole thing, who will not testify or be cross examined, has a third link of bias.

You haven't kept up, or maybe you don't care. The first two whistleblowers was about the July 25th call. It opened a door that Democrats walked through, and found a much wider conspiracy that predated and post-dated that phone call.

That is why the Whistleblower is of lesser importance now. Because after they stepped up, many other people have who have shown that the call he blew the Whistle on was one cog in a much larger machine to blackmail Ukraine.

And it's bizarre you even bring this up, considering that subsequent Witnesses, almost all of them career professionals at the State Department who have served their country and are widely respected by both Democrats and Republicans, are ignoring the White House's instructions to not testify, complying with subpeonas, and are ALL telling the same story about what Trump and his gang did.

So being fixed on the WHistleblower at this point is nonsensical: the Trump has far more problems than just that person, now.

If this things is ....legitimate, why can only democrats subpoena people?

Because Democrats wont he 2018 election and are the majority in the House of Representatives, and the majority on committees. Subpoenas are held via a committee vote where majority rules. Political parties cannot subpoena people. When Republicans were holding their Benghazi witch hunt in these same committees, they did not let Democrats subpoena witnesses.

Moral of the story: losing the House 2018 Midterms had consequences and Devin Nunes can't run interference. Don't complain when the rules are applied when the shoe is on the other foot.

Why is everything closed doors?

Several reasons.

First, because it is an intelligence matter right now, relating to Ukraine and Russia, which is a major front of US foreign policy and military focus. It is where Russia and the US are most directly coming into conflict as Ukraine moves westward in interests and Russia tries to stop them. These witnesses, due to their jobs, have access and are responsible for among the most sensitive matters when it comes to US intelligence, and not everything they will be able to say (yet) will have been scrubbed and checked by the Intelligence Community to prevent an intel leak.

Secondly, it's strategic. This is an effect, more than intent, due to the above. But because this is how it has to be handled for a security reason, Republicans have been unable to formulate a cohesive response because what is going on inside these SCIFs is largely unknown to the White House and non-cleared Republicans. Democrats know this. It has basically allowed them to roll the President and turn public opinion against him.


But don't worry, you're going to get you're going to get your public hearings over the next few months. When the information that was revealed in the SCIF is scrubbed and the "shocking" things that Republicans say off the record that they hear come to light.

Why is the original second hand information whistleblower not testifying in the inquiry and being cross examined by people on the committee? let me save you the trouble, you are going to say because they have to gather information without having Republicans ask questions.

Because it's not needed at this point. Your complaint is ridiculous. I don't even think you realize WHAT you're saying. Sincerely.

You're literally complaining that the 2nd link in the chain is not testifying, when much more damaging information has come to light because of the doors that the two whistle blowers opened.

Do you understand? You're basically trying to go back to the start and ask "why are the guys who were concerned about a phone call not brought to testify", when what that enabled was many more figures who DID have first hand information and whose jobs were more senior, like the Deputy National Security Adviser and two Ambassadors to Ukraine, all came in and said the same thing that made the original whistle-blower complaints far, far, far worse.

Again: the whistle-blowers discussed the July 25th phone call. But what Democrats have found was a pattern of behaviors - a conspiracy - that stretched back until at least February 2019, and continued until at least early September 2019. Trump's gang was basically caught in the act.

So why the hang up about whistle blower #2? Because Deputy NSA Fiona Hill, and Ambassadors Sondland, Yovanovitch and Taylor (among others) all created far, far, far more problems.

I like how you guys constantly dismiss the fact that the main reason there is an inquiry is because a guy who will not be cross examined filed a second and third hand information complaint. And he went to the committee leader's staff before even filing the complaint. But this doesn't look suspicious at all. If they even hold a vote to impeach, it would never pass the senate. There will be no impeachment. This is a show for democrats to get their base riled up because they know their candidates are shit.

Oh you think this is about removing the President via a Senate vote...

oh....

no, this is first about destroying him as a person and as a figure. He is going down in history as the President who got the job because Russian help, then conspired to blackmail and ally for personal gain and got impeached for it. His name will go down in history with Andrew Johnson and Richard Nixon. And it is a marker that the majority of Americans, when the time came to stand against his corruption, took a stand. If the Senate fails us, that is an indictment on the Senate. We the people will have done our moral duty.

Secondly, it is about damaging him in the 2020 election. The way to beat Trump is to ask Americans if they want 4 more years of the Donald Trump show. Already the majority of Americans say 'no' by far. Not necessarily in the right places though due to the electoral college. But having impeachment drag into the spring - which it will - will serve the purposes of utterly exhausting Americans with regards to this man. Everything Donald Trump has done relating to this and corruption will barrage them for months on end. And it will all serve the purpose of putting them in the position to say while in the poll booth in November 2020 "man, fuck four more years of this high drama shit."

This is not a policy election. It is a referendum on Trump, and the best argument against Donald Trump IS Donald Trump.

So yes my dear, this is political and we're out to weaponizing the process to politically torture him. Because it will help Democrats in the fall of 2020.

Don't believe this is having an effect? A clear majority of Americans and independents want Trump removed from office. And most ominously for Republicans, according to polls and fundraising, this battle is putting Senate seats in Maine, North Carolina and Iowa into play to a greater degree than they were (the prior focus was on just Arizona and Colorado). Republicans could lose the Senate. I still think the chances are low, but it's starting to cause concern among Senators.

Oh yeah and on top of that, Congress has to pass a 2020 budget before the end of the year (or pass a continuing resolution and pass a budget early next year) and Donald Trump has to sign it. And that budget will not have any wall money, in an election year. Political watchers expect another government shut down, over wall money. And this time since no DoD budget was passed, it will be _all_ of government.

You see the trap taking form? You see what we're goading Trump into? He'll shut down the government over the wall to distract from impeachment at the start of 2020. That shut down will be the second of his Presidency and damage him and his party again. And then he'll be impeached anyway. Probably not removed, but it doesn't matter. He'll have suffered those two blows within the same year as an election.

If the house votes to impeach and it goes to the senate for a trial, all your senators can not campaign. That means Elizabeth Warren, the current favorite, has to be there in the chamber while everyone else is out campaigning. I am sure you want her on cspan arguing for impeachment that will not pass while everyojne else is campaiging.

Well my personal choice is Joe Biden, who is not in the Senate. But besides that, it is Elizabeth Warren, and she'll absolutely be campaigning. She'll have to take maybe a week and a half off from it. Hardly anything nuts.


We have Trump exactly where we want them. I'm excited. I'm thrilled.

- - - Updated - - -



That's bad for Trump. Real bad. But it gets worse for Trump.


Is the Season 3 plot twist going to be that John Bolton goes full on Darth Vader at the end of RotJ and throws Trump down a shaft?

The witnesses are lining up to testify.

Tick tock, Trumphadis.

[Breccia]

John Bolton goes full on Darth Vader

Except instead of shouting NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (unless you have the correct original version) Bolton's going to be shouting YESSSSSSSSSSSS!

To briefly recap a previous debate, Trump firing Bolton was still a mistake, even though Trump hiring Bolton was also a mistake. Think of hiring Bolton as shooting someone on 5th Avenue, but firing Bolton as turning over the murder weapon. The guy's still dead, but now you're going to jail for it.

Anyhow: remember that Bolton was fired in September. Whether Trump tried to force him out of the loop with regard to Ukraine is not something I know offhand -- we might know, I might simply have missed it. However, as Skroe just linked, we are now hearing that Bolton was, in fact, involved. And he hated it, and has little to no reason to hold back anymore.

Now, does Bolton get to go blue ghost and hang out with Mattis-won Kenobi and McYoda? No. But he does get to take his mask off, tell us we were right, and gasp "Now go...leave me..." before everything he built explodes.

[Skroe]

Except instead of shouting NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (unless you have the correct original version) Bolton's going to be shouting YESSSSSSSSSSSS!

To briefly recap a previous debate, Trump firing Bolton was still a mistake, even though Trump hiring Bolton was also a mistake. Think of hiring Bolton as shooting someone on 5th Avenue, but firing Bolton as turning over the murder weapon. The guy's still dead, but now you're going to jail for it.

Anyhow: remember that Bolton was fired in September. Whether Trump tried to force him out of the loop with regard to Ukraine is not something I know offhand -- we might know, I might simply have missed it. However, as Skroe just linked, we are now hearing that Bolton was, in fact, involved. And he hated it, and has little to no reason to hold back anymore.

Now, does Bolton get to go blue ghost and hang out with Mattis-won Kenobi and McYoda? No. But he does get to take his mask off, tell us we were right, and gasp "Now go...leave me..." before everything he built explodes.

The side of me that likes dark comedy thinks that everything.... EVERYTHING.... will have been worth it, if at the end of this absolutely stupid timeline we're trapped in, Arch-Neocon John Bolton (R-Destruction) ends up having finally succeeding in bringing about Regime change... just in America.

It's fucking Shakespearean.

[dubious_doomhammer]

I do wonder what can be done about Fox News. Their sponsors taking them to task for the bullshit they spew, as catalyzed by people complaining to those sponsors about their support for such partisan drivel would probably be the most effective way.

Legislation limiting them is too dangerous, as it could be used against legitimate news sources as censorship by nefarious individuals (like Trump has wanted to do to the press since taking office.) Best to hit 'em in the only place they care about: money.

Freedom of the press shouldn't mean freedom to lie, or freedom to manipulate. I can't imagine holding journalism to a higher standard could ever be a bad thing - in Canada there's a law against lying on the news ... it might make our news a little less sensationalist than the US, but at least its honest.

[Jehct]

Stop lying... You damn well know what you're doing here, and you damn well know he's not saying Gabbard is a Russian agent

Nah - I wanna know what the hell he's talking about. How about he replies then we can see what's up.

[mvaliz]

Well, pardon me for taking a few hours to sleep. :P

NO SLEEP FOR U!!! :P

Again, it's reverse-ironic that you're saying that to me - as I wrote my response at 2am, hopped up on caffeine, after watching two lighthouse keepers go bonkers mad for 2 hours. If that doesn't prove to myself that decent sleep is worth it, nothing will! >.>

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Nah - I wanna know what the hell he's talking about. How about he replies then we can see what's up.

/tosses out a fish

There there, Sea Lion, go toot your horn somewhere else please.

Seriously though, you know what he meant. Don't pretend he meant it 'literally' like you're doing.

[Jehct]

- - - Updated - - -

/tosses out a fish

There there, Sea Lion, go toot your horn somewhere else please.

Seriously though, you know what he meant. Don't pretend he meant it 'literally' like you're doing.

Nah again. Clarity would be nice. But you spam posting isn't going to get the guy to respond faster. Calm down a little bit.

[Bodakane]

Let's say there's a doorman at a building with lots of mob business being done within it's walls. Let's say the doorman personally hates one fo the mob guys because he's an ass and never tips and is always insulting to the doorman.

Doorman decides to talk to cops and give them a heads up the goings on of the building. The cops investigate, and make arrests.

According to Trump supporters, everything the cops find should be thrown out because the doorman had a personal bias against the mobster.

[RaoBurning]

Just saw this pop up somewhere and thought you all might like a gander: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo...c/PAT19928.pdf

[Xeones]

Just saw this pop up somewhere and thought you all might like a gander: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo...c/PAT19928.pdf

I saw Lindsey on TV yesterday. That trash got in trouble for not supporting Trump enough. So he made up a bunch of false complaints against the democrats.

[Crispin]

Freedom of the press shouldn't mean freedom to lie, or freedom to manipulate. I can't imagine holding journalism to a higher standard could ever be a bad thing - in Canada there's a law against lying on the news ... it might make our news a little less sensationalist than the US, but at least its honest.

Yeah it's the same here

https://www.pressenaevnet.dk/press-ethical-rules/


It's odd how the US at some points is so far more advanced, and at other points is 100 years behind.

You can now have fucking drones delivering goods to your house, and then go to the local diner and figure out the tip with pen and paper, unreal.

[Edge-]

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...-report-057612

So Barr received a note sharply criticizing their decision not to whitsleblower complaint to lawmakers.

"Yeah, probably some liberal"

It was the IG for the DoJ.

"Oh, that's not so good but that's just one guy."

And the IG for the National Science Foundation.

"FINE, two guys. And what's the National Science Foundation got to do with this?"

I stopped counting around 50 IG's, including for the State Department, Social Security Administration, Veterans Affairs, Treasury, Railroad Retirement Board, and more.

So...pretty much all of them.

[Bodakane]

Yeah it's the same here

https://www.pressenaevnet.dk/press-ethical-rules/


It's odd how the US at some points is so far more advanced, and at other points is 100 years behind.

You can now have fucking drones delivering goods to your house, and then go to the local diner and figure out the tip with pen and paper, unreal.

List of things in order of importance to typical America:

- Capitalism
- Public perception of one's self
- Patriotism
- Christmas
- Apparently pumpkin spice flavored things

Journalism is often powered by our wanton greed.

[Zaydin]

The judge who ruled against the DoJ today and ordered them to hand over Mueller probe documents to House Democrats wasn't particularly amused or swayed by the DoJs arguments.

[nonameelf]

Just saw this pop up somewhere and thought you all might like a gander: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo...c/PAT19928.pdf

And most of these dumbasses are lawyers. Somehow.

The trial is in the senate, that's where the president can face his accusers and call his own witnesses.

You'd think lawyers would be smart enough to understand this.

[Cthulhu 2020]

And most of these dumbasses are lawyers. Somehow.

The trial is in the senate, that's where the president can face his accusers and call his own witnesses.

You'd think lawyers would be smart enough to understand this.

They probably are smart enough, but are playing dumb to appeal to Trump. But any lawyer playing dumb for the sake of polishing Trump's shaft should have their law license revoked and their law degrees nullified. Every lawyer should know how impeachment proceedings work, and whether they're genuinely dumb/ignorant, or just playing dumb/ignorant, they don't need to be practicing lawyers.