Forgive and “not” forget.

[Trassk]

Tyrande will go batshit and endanger the night elves on her path to vengeance.

Shandris will step in to be the night elves new leader.

[allawyn]

I mean, pre-the burning of the tree, the destruction and crimes are still stacked up on one side of that line.. which would be fine if people didn't magically forget that, or pretend the Horde are always victims etc.. I mean what, when people shit talk the past Alliance, its always "they were racist against BEs in WC3 (one guy)" and then 'Camp Tuarajoooooooo"

Yeah, complaining about a (dubious) claim that the horde is always to blame, and then trying to attack posters who point out what hog wash that is doesn't really work.

You could also keep claiming the Horde points are excuses while cycling back the usual excuses for Alliance attrocities. But that hasn't work either.

[Every Pwny]

Tyrande is wrong not to give peace a chance at all

She gave peace a chance several times actually, including after the third war and after SoO when the night elves gave the horde Azshara. What is wrong here is you pretending like she has never given peace a chance (because that is just you not knowing the lore) or that it's wrong for her to not trust the horde won't just attack her people again like they always have in the past. It would be extremely stupid if she just started trusting the horde now when most of the horde population supported both Sylvanas and Garrosh, it's a deep cultural problem within the horde, not with a two bad leaders basically in a row. There needs to be a seriously huge change within the horde, not just another change in leadership.

[Nirathiel]

Tyrande is wrong not to give peace a chance at all, and it's not the first time she and her people have experienced genocide.

So she is wrong for not submitting like all the other leaders did and have peace with the same people that invaded her lands. Blighted the wildlives. Destroyed countless Wisps. Nearly killed her husband, burned her entire home and genocided her people? Are you for real?

[Feanoro]

So she is wrong for not submitting like all the other leaders did and have peace with the same people that invaded her lands. Blighted the wildlives. Destroyed countless Wisps. Nearly killed her husband, burned her entire home and genocided her people? Are you for real?

Why not? The Horde is always supposed to get a pass, no matter how many "mountains of skulls and rivers of blood" they create. That's been the message for almost twenty years.

[VladlTutushkin]

Tyrande will go batshit and endanger the night elves on her path to vengeance.

Shandris will step in to be the night elves new leader.

Well, at least she is a night elf herself... you guys now saddled with Mommy Calia.

[Beloren]

What are you talking about? She tried peace before and Horde came down on her with genocide. No person, no matter how wise will forgive that. And Horde didnt even payed her any reparations, didnt left the land they occupied (aka Ashenvale and part of Darkshore) and didnt even asked forgivness wile honoring Saurfang who organized that whole war. So basically you expect her to “give them a chance” without them offering ANYTHING to earn her trust. Peace is a two ways road, Horde should be willing to do their part if they want peace but they just expect it. She cant even resettle her people because Horde will just attack them again few years down the road or so it seems now, Council or no Council if somebody “does a Palpatine” and remember - warriors of the Horde gleefuly invaded and slaughtered her people during WoT.

Yada yada. Tyrande and the whole Alliance have given more chances than is sane already. The Horde has "changed its ways" until the next bloodthirsty idiot screams "FER DA HERD!" and they mindlessly and gleefully follow for a chance to kill everything that moves. All we have right now for proof they're turning a new leaf is a few guys saying so. Remember how the rebels were supposed to be vastly outnumbered? Or how Sylvie still has loyalists in the shadows?

So she is wrong for not submitting like all the other leaders did and have peace with the same people that invaded her lands. Blighted the wildlives. Destroyed countless Wisps. Nearly killed her husband, burned her entire home and genocided her people? Are you for real?

So what should you do? Seek for horde genocide? or ensure a non genocidal way that reforms the horde in a manner they would never be able to repeat what happened under Garrosh or Sylvanas.

Let's also not forget in both cases of Garrosh and Sylvanas there were people in the horde opposed to this, and also people's who never too part - Pandaran, Nightborne, Highmountain did not take part at all and most of the Tauren did not - the army was largely orc and troll, with some over eager blood elves - even the blood elves were split on it, the same Lor'themar in the end totally opposes Sylvanas.

That really means something.


Tyrande should not be opposing peace, but actually insisting the horde provide guarantees, in a n unprecedented move, like having her night elves sit in council on all horde matters, relinsquishing all lands taken from the night elves, including Azshara.

She should also insist on ways the night elves and horde races are actually working and operating together. Night elves and nightborne/highmountain on Broken Isles should form alliances and work together - Tyrande does this to make sure that no matter where they are, the night elves are in the horde's business all the way.

To ensure the blood elves aren't plotting too, the high elves and void elves, along with some night elves must have a place in Quel'thalas. She does this across the horde, especially in Elf related places, and it's the night elves she insists on, not on the alliance - on the basis that the night elves iin those places bring the threat of the alliance


The council of Kalimdor must have night elves involved in all horde governing matters in the Barrens, Durotar, Mulgore and Thousand needles, furthermore, horde who wish to stay/live in Ashenvale or other night elf places must follow the laws, rules and ways of the night elves.

Rather than storm of in an unrelenting tirade and rage, as a high priestess of Elune and an incredibly intelligent woman, she should be able to insist and enforce a solution and state in the horde that ensures her people receive adequate recompense (like lands lost) and rather than destroyed, a truly repenetant horde is and will reform, with the night elves playing a key role.

She asks not for the alliance, but for the night elves to be on the seat and affairs of the horde, and this is unconditional.


Now this is the sort of move I would expect from a High Priestess of the Night elves, 10,000 + years old, and mouth piece of her goddess - not running around like a Maiev, not with her level of experience, wisdom and intelligence.

I also would be interested to see the horde conceding on this and accepting her conditions, but of the purists amongst the horde having some not support this and others hoping to turn the night elves to the horde.


What would be absolutely stupid is if the alliance gets yet again nothing serious or meaningful from this, but worse, that the night elves get nothing from this. Equally as bad would be if Anduin proposes this solution. It would show up Tyrande yet again. No, a night elf has to come up with this, maybe not Tyrande by herself, make it Tyrande, Malfurion, Jarod even Prince Farondis - if they really want to show cross faction support for preventing more war, have some nightborne like Thalyssra and Ly'leth pitch in with some of the solutions.

This way Tyrande is not turning into crazy bitch, nor stupid witch, nor super angry/vengeful , but is instead smart and cunning as befits what is supposed to be a benevolent and sagely/godly people.

[nonameelf]

Everyone must agree with Anduin or they are wrong and bad like Tyrande.

I wonder how much more of a Mary Sue they can make Anduin next expansion!

[Every Pwny]

This way Tyrande is not turning into crazy bitch, nor stupid witch, nor super angry/vengeful , but is instead smart and cunning as befits what is supposed to be a benevolent and sagely/godly people.

Having a night elf on the council is a good idea to observe what the horde is doing and what their are thinking, but trusting the horde ever again is going to take A LOT more than that. She's not a "crazy bitch", this is just you trying to dismiss her concerns and ignore what happened to her people entirely. She gave the horde Azshara after SoO for guarantees that they wouldn't invade Ashenvale again. That failed, wanting the horde to follow a piece of paper has proven useless in the past, a leadership change means less than nothing since the horde's problem is a deep seeded one of violence and conquest. There needs to be a huge cultural shift within the horde before she could even think about trusting them again. The problem here is not Tyrande, and she is not a "bitch" for not trusting people who time and time again have committed atrocities when they've decided they are strong enough. The only one acting crazy here is you with your absurd demands of her when she has gone for peace many times with the horde and it has only cost her people.

You really need to start analyzing what the horde did and were complicit in under Sylvanas and Garrosh before you try to call Tyrande out for logically not trusting them now and how the night elves are the one to suffer when the horde decides they want to go off and kill people. The people who are mostly at fault here are the horde for committing atrocities, not Tyrande for not trusting them after trying to trust them in the past.

What would be absolutely stupid is if the alliance gets yet again nothing serious or meaningful from this, but worse, that the night elves get nothing from this. Equally as bad would be if Anduin proposes this solution. It would show up Tyrande yet again. No, a night elf has to come up with this, maybe not Tyrande by herself, make it Tyrande, Malfurion, Jarod even Prince Farondis - if they really want to show cross faction support for preventing more war, have some nightborne like Thalyssra and Ly'leth pitch in with some of the solutions.

The alliance is already getting nothing serious or meaningful from this as far as we know, we don't even know if the horde is still in Darkshore. In the last peace treaty the night elves actually lost stuff and anduin already made this treaty behind the backs of the other leaders. Also the nightborne were helping sylvanas during and after the genocide of the night elves, even after the night elves helped to liberate their city, so they would not be useful in any kind of peace talks as they stabbed the night elves in the back the first chance they got.

[Jastall]

This is demeaning to the Horde. Must we "learn to walk a new path" again? This was the storyline of WC3.

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It is not Horde bias either, because the Horde had to go through this genocide and civil war shit to begin with.

To be honest, Warhammer is a lot more morally nuanced than Warcraft. There is no absolute good and even the evil factions are understandable and can be sympathetic.

Beyond the fact that I disagree that there's no absolute evil in the setting (Dark Elves, Skaven, Nagash, most Vampires and Chaos say hi) Warhammer's issue was that, to accommodate endless conflict, the world was incredibly static. The Empire never fell, the Dwarves were never defeated beyond repair, the Vampires were never ousted from Sylvania, the DEs never took even a portion of Ulthuan, the HEs never did anything of use, the Lizardmen never budged an inch towards fulfilling the Great Plan, and the Greenskins, Skaven and Chaos can literally never be beaten. It was a backdrop more than a story. And tellingly, as soon as they started telling a story during End Times, everything went to shit in an even more spectacular fashion then in BFA. At least there's Total War Warhammer which allows you to tell your own story.

Warcraft by contrast, has an ever-continuing story. This makes the world feel less static than it is, but on the flipside means that they recycle plot points and the world also stays relatively static regardless because Alliance can never truly defeat Horde and vice versa. That's the entire reason why the Alliance was never going to lose and why it goes through the forgiveness.exe routine while the Horde booted up the Evil_Warchief.exe one yet again; a victorious Horde changes the setting too much to be even considered for obvious reasons, and a revanchist Alliance also harms the precious status quo in a way that would impede gameplay, unless one really wants human guards occupying Orgrimmar, their Orc character to be tossed into internment camps at the first sign of the blood rage, and their Forsaken character to be burned at the stake as unholy abominations. Thus the Alliance "wins", the Horde rebels so it also "wins", and status quo is preserved for the next expansion. So shall it ever be.

[geco]

The question is not what Tyrande has to do.

He has to do the horde to be worthy of the ooortunity of a peace.



A simple idea. Give all your weapons and catapults to the Kaldorei. so at least there will be no war until they are created again.
They could at least show that they are discussing how to pay their mistake.

As long as the Horde continues to do nothing. The most logical option will be genocide.

[sillag]

What are you talking about? She tried peace before and Horde came down on her with genocide. No person, no matter how wise will forgive that.

i mean velen will forgive you for genociding the draenei. he will even forgive you for genociding the draenei again in an alternate universe while dispelling the myth that it was demon blood that made you do the first genocide. he will then forgive you for using the gift of the sunwell he gave you in hopes it would redeem you to be party to even more genocides.

but velen is a really bad character and blizzard's concept of what makes a wise and good-aligned character is face-grindingly retarded.

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the horde "reform" is basically worthless as anyone with a pea-sized brain will tell you that you don't reform the leadership of a country by having the entire new leadership being made up of members of the previous leadership who were all complicit in repeated genocide

obviously blizzard wasn't going to replace every single horde leader though. but the counterpoint is as it always is with bfa, if you werent going to take your story seriously you should have stuck with mindless fanservice and not taken us all on the horde reich bus

[Nathasil]

i mean velen will forgive you for genociding the draenei. he will even forgive you for genociding the draenei again in an alternate universe while dispelling the myth that it was demon blood that made you do the first genocide. he will then forgive you for using the gift of the sunwell he gave you in hopes it would redeem you to be party to even more genocides.

but velen is a really bad character and blizzard's concept of what makes a wise and good-aligned character is face-grindingly retarded.

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the horde "reform" is basically worthless as anyone with a pea-sized brain will tell you that you don't reform the leadership of a country by having the entire new leadership being made up of members of the previous leadership who were all complicit in repeated genocide

obviously blizzard wasn't going to replace every single horde leader though. but the counterpoint is as it always is with bfa, if you werent going to take your story seriously you should have stuck with mindless fanservice and not taken us all on the horde reich bus

You seem to have missed the part where Velen did not forgive anything on Draenor at all - he sacrificed himself to save his people.
You also seem to have forgotten that it was him who executed Kil'jaeden with his own hands.
You also seem to have forgotten that it was Velen who lead both factions onto Argus, spearheading the entire Assault and executing the Eredar responsible for the deaths of his family while that Eredar was already running away.

But yes, sure, Velen forgave everything and never went into any fight at all.

Of course.

---

The second part abut the Horde leadership i agree with, though. This story was doomed from the get-go and nothing even remotely believeable or statisfying can possibly come out of it. It has detached me personally more from the game than anything prior - and WoD tried REALLY hard. I cannot see them turning this around in the next expansion. If ever. The best we can hope for at this point is that they will simply stop mentioning the events of BFA completely and pretend they never happened while focussing on completely new story archs. But, of course, that won't happen either.

[thottstation]

Orgrimmar has a much more stable future now that it has Ashenvale's resources.

.............. what? It's not like the Horde has to GIVE IT BACK.

Right?

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I'm just bummed we never saw Jaina, the warbringer.

She rescued and saved lives at the Undercity, then spent most of BfA crying in a prison cell. Then she protected Alliance forces in the attack on Dazar'Alor, convinced them to leave to give the trolls "time to grieve", then helped save the Horde... just like she always has.

I never beware'd her. Not once.

I didn't see a warbringer. I saw a broken young woman at peace with her impending suicide.

[VladlTutushkin]

Orgrimmar has a much more stable future now that it has Ashenvale's resources.

.............. what? It's not like the Horde has to GIVE IT BACK.

Right?

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I'm just bummed we never saw Jaina, the warbringer.

She rescued and saved lives at the Undercity, then spent most of BfA crying in a prison cell. Then she protected Alliance forces in the attack on Dazar'Alor, convinced them to leave to give the trolls "time to grieve", then helped save the Horde... just like she always has.

I never beware'd her. Not once.

I didn't see a warbringer. I saw a broken young woman at peace with her impending suicide.

According to Anduin you can keep whatever you like, but according to Tyrande you better be ready literally “become one with the land” so to say. Via becoming fertilizer for plants.
Also indeed, it seems Blizz cant bring themself to actually hurt the Horde but one day there might be a change of team and then we will see who laughs then when they hire some more “golden-like” writers to appease “progressive” crowd.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yeah but the architect of the war of thorns said "muh honor" and that he's sorry for the orcs genociding people for the 5075th time - they are such a peaceful noble race! Tyrande is being irrational for being distrustful of a faction that has time and time again started genocidal crap.

/s

At least the shitshow of Grom Hellscream escaping any punishment for genociding peaceful Draenei in Warlords of Draenor could be excused with the expansion getting axed - the "WE WILL NEVER BE SLAVES" slogan he proudly yelled at the end still leaves a big nasty taste in my mouth.
BFA however? It didn't get axed so we can't use that excuse here.


As a Horde player - fuck Orcs.

Also apparently undead are sheeple who dont have a brain of their own and follow anyone who says that she cares about them.

[Soon-TM]

Also apparently undead are sheeple who dont have a brain of their own and follow anyone who says that she cares about them.

Especially if it's a lady whom they never heard about before, who teaches a religion they have completely ditched, or never practiced at all, and who comes out of the blue to fill the position left vacant by the morally grey lady by virtue of her dad and her close friendship to Anduin Sue.

Man, if they actually revamp the old world, I can't wait to see the introductory quests for Forsaken toons. It will probably take place in a bright, blossoming, sunny Tirisfal and you have to collect flowers as an offering to the new Bright Lady /s

[VladlTutushkin]

Especially if it's a lady whom they never heard about before, who teaches a religion they have completely ditched, or never practiced at all, and who comes out of the blue to fill the position left vacant by the morally grey lady by virtue of her dad and her close friendship to Anduin Sue.

Man, if they actually revamp the old world, I can't wait to see the introductory quests for Forsaken toons. It will probably take place in a bright, blossoming, sunny Tirisfal and you have to collect flowers as an offering to the new Bright Lady /s

I never liked Sylvanas as forsaken leader but Calia is not the replacement i would have picked.

[Eggroll]

The horror

It seems the devs are not done with shitting on the nelves...

[Plehnard]

I wish this would happen in game:
https://makanidotdot.tumblr.com/post/188566391581