*Spoilers* Actual Leak!!!

[TheRevenantHero]

people on this thread be like

"ItS pHoToShOp" even though this looks like it's made by an actual professional team. They're the same ones that will come here and say "I always knew it was real" when they actually announce Shadowlands

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Blue eyes on helmet are tied to Nerzhul's corruption. bolvar was red to signify he was still himself behind the Helm of Damnation (because, you know, he was burned by the red dragon's fires in the Wrathgate), but not anymore. This is ACTUALLY what shows this isn't fake, if it was fake he would still be with red eyes because the "leaker" didn't know anything about the lore and just copy pasted our current model's LK. And remember, canonically it's been 7 years since he doned that helmet, whereas Arthas took him 5 years to be fully corrupted. As of right now, Bolvar has been using the helmet for longer than Arthas has

Arthas and Ner'zhul no longer have a presence at all according to lore. Try again.

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And where Firey throughout Legion.

His eyes are still fiery in BfA too when you do the Vol'jin quest.

[Monkiy]

Arthas and Ner'zhul no longer have a presence at all according to lore. Try again.

That isn't definitively said anywhere in the lore, but just for the sake of it - citation needed. All we know is that Arthas was able to take control from Ner'zhul once he donned the armor, but he never got rid of him, and Ner'zhul still existed in the back of his mind the entire time he was the Lich King. We have no reason to believe that Ner'zhul was somehow separated from the Lich King's armor that he was bound to.

[TheRevenantHero]

That isn't definitively said anywhere in the lore, but just for the sake of it - citation needed. All we know is that Arthas was able to take control from Ner'zhul once he donned the armor, but he never got rid of him, and Ner'zhul still existed in the back of his mind the entire time he was the Lich King. We have no reason to believe that Ner'zhul was somehow separated from the Lich King's armor that he was bound to.

"er'zhul was buried and struggled to wake up to regain control. Arthas drew on the orc's guilt over his role in the downfall of his race to trap him into a downward spiral of despair until nothing remained but a wail of sorrow.[26] Vestiges or at least memories of Ner'zhul remained in the new Lich King, who once referred to himself as a former shaman.[27] This Lich King would be killed by adventurers some time later, ultimately ending the fallen shaman's legacy."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul

Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul while in a battle of wills in the Helm. Then the adventurers ended Arthas. Even Metzen himself had said Ner'zhul was done and gone.

[kendro1200]

We had Metzen say that Ner'zhul is "done" in 2010. Of course a lot can change from there but nothing points to Ner'zhul being back. We also had Bolvar "in control" in patch 8.1 and not Ner'zhul. Everything points to Ner'zhul and Arthas "merging".

The chronicles states the fought a battle for one mind. And that Arthas thought he won at first and the had one last final battle of will that concluded with Arthas being the victor. The novel, though maybe not entirely canon with chronicles, states that they became one. We have the quests with Matthias that essentially show them merging into one.

Even if Ner'zhul, and arthas, were still in the Helm of Domination there is nothing indicating that he could beat Bolvar. Arthas would have shattered anything to his sanity and will in their battle. It makes more sense for Arthas to somehow win control from Bolvar then for Ner'zhul.

Just remember that Blizzard has a bad internal habit of writers not respecting decisions of their predecessors, which externally we see as retconning. As long as Blizzard has writers who want to use an Arthas/Ner'zhul Lich King, or someone thinks that character will sell more boxes, then we will get that in an upcoming game even if in continuity it makes zero sense. Blizzard is worse at continuity than the 90's Batman movies.

[Doffen]

Shadowland.com is a buyable domain while shadowlands.com is a page not found. Maybe!

Wrathofthebolvar.com goes straight to worldofwarcraft.com for some reason.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Are people really trying to argue that Ner'zhul can't possibly come back? Has it really been so long since somebody was merely set back?

[Monkiy]

"er'zhul was buried and struggled to wake up to regain control. Arthas drew on the orc's guilt over his role in the downfall of his race to trap him into a downward spiral of despair until nothing remained but a wail of sorrow.[26] Vestiges or at least memories of Ner'zhul remained in the new Lich King, who once referred to himself as a former shaman.[27] This Lich King would be killed by adventurers some time later, ultimately ending the fallen shaman's legacy."

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ner%27zhul

Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's soul while in a battle of wills in the Helm. Then the adventurers ended Arthas. Even Metzen himself had said Ner'zhul was done and gone.

That's a wiki page, not a lore source. Notice that the last phrase in your quote, the one you're banking on, doesn't have a citation to it. The page took liberties, and is assuming that Ner'zhul is gone, but that's not actually confirmed anywhere.

Metzen and other developers have said many things over the years that end up either not being true, or not staying true, even if they were the intention at the time. Chronicles is the most up to date lore we have from Blizzard, and according to that Ner'zhul wasn't destroyed, just broken and ignored by Arthas. We have no reason to assume that he was separated from the Lich King's armor or the Helm of Dominion.

https://imgur.com/a/xiLv6Na

[rhorle]

Just remember that Blizzard has a bad internal habit of writers not respecting decisions of their predecessors, which externally we see as retconning. As long as Blizzard has writers who want to use an Arthas/Ner'zhul Lich King, or someone thinks that character will sell more boxes, then we will get that in an upcoming game even if in continuity it makes zero sense. Blizzard is worse at continuity than the 90's Batman movies.

Anything is possible. It is fiction created by others so Blizzard could add the starship enterprise and Protoss to the official lore for Warcraft. The discussion though is working off of existing lore and making it possible or not.

[TheRevenantHero]

That's a wiki page, not a lore source. Notice that the last phrase in your quote, the one you're banking on, doesn't have a citation to it. The page took liberties, and is assuming that Ner'zhul is gone, but that's not actually confirmed anywhere.

Metzen and other developers have said many things over the years that end up either not being true, or not staying true, even if they were the intention at the time. Chronicles is the most up to date lore we have from Blizzard, and according to that Ner'zhul wasn't destroyed, just broken and ignored by Arthas. We have no reason to assume that he was separated from the Lich King's armor or the Helm of Dominion.

https://imgur.com/a/xiLv6Na

As recently as BfA, Bolvar was in complete control as the Lich King. To change it would just be Blizzard saying "fuck the lore" and introducing nostalgia back to the game. Which would just make the entire expansion fucking trash.

[rhorle]

That's a wiki page, not a lore source. Notice that the last phrase in your quote, the one you're banking on, doesn't have a citation to it. The page took liberties, and is assuming that Ner'zhul is gone, but that's not actually confirmed anywhere.

The actual chronicles page you link to confirms that Ner'zhul is gone. Arthas and Ner'zhul had a battle for control. A battle to determine that only one would control. Arthas shattered Ner'zhuls mind into a barely noticeable wail. There was no Ner'zhul left to take over control of Bolvar let alone put up a fight when Bolvar resisted even Arthas.

The very wiki you say is not a lore source cites the same page you link to. Blizzcon, Twitter, Books, Chronicles all point to Ner'zhul being gone. But we know that nothing is every gone because it is fiction that is written by someone. They can bring someone back with a reason or even with out a reason. But as it stands right now with no new supporting lore Ner'zhul is gone. What remind of him was merged into Arthas.

If Bolvar had to fight anyone for control it would be Arthas.

[Monkiy]

The page absolutely does not confirm that he's gone - that is an outright lie. It literally says that Arthas just ignores him after winning the mind games for control. You cannot ignore something that is gone. That is an asinine argument that you're making.

For the time being, he was reduced to a wail, but he's nothing but a spirit permanently attached to the armor, and spirits have a habit of enduring in this fantasy - we don't have a single thing that indicates that he is no longer contained within the armor, or the helm that Bolvar currently wears. Ner'zhul doesn't have to completely control Bolvar, he can still be an influencing force. And from Legion through BfA the Lich King has made some questionable moves that are not things that we would necessarily see from Bolvar as the Paladin we once knew, and they are not things that are benevolent or for the greater good.

Would a completely uninfluenced Bolvar really prompt us to slay multitudes of the red dragonflight?
He very directly says that he has his own schemes, and plans for Acherus should we die and leave it unprotected from his reach.
In obtaining our artifacts, he agrees to help us as an act of vengeance against the Legion - is that something that Bolvar or Ner'zhul would say?

He has very clearly changed in mentality since donning the helm, not unlike Arthas. He is not just the Bolvar we knew. Ner'zuhl still having some agency is the most obvious possibility, especially given some of the actions taken.

[wooootles]

As recently as BfA, Bolvar was in complete control as the Lich King. To change it would just be Blizzard saying "fuck the lore" and introducing nostalgia back to the game. Which would just make the entire expansion fucking trash.

I don't know dude, I did all the DK quests in Legion. That LK doesn't sound like the Bolvar at all, or at least I wouldn't say he's in "complete control." We did some nasty shit for him. Not in the Sylvanas "morally grey" style, but nasty stuff nonetheless.

[TheRevenantHero]

I don't know dude, I did all the DK quests in Legion. That LK doesn't sound like the Bolvar at all, or at least I wouldn't say he's in "complete control." We did some nasty shit for him. Not in the Sylvanas "morally grey" style, but nasty stuff nonetheless.

His voice changed when he donned the Helm in ICC which more implies it's just a magical side effect of the item itself rather than it having anything to do with who is in control. And if he wasn't in complete control, the Scourge would be invading but he has been keeping them 100% in Northrend for going on seven years in lore with no slip ups.

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The page absolutely does not confirm that he's gone - that is an outright lie. It literally says that Arthas just ignores him after winning the mind games for control. You cannot ignore something that is gone. That is an asinine argument that you're making.

For the time being, he was reduced to a wail, but he's nothing but a spirit permanently attached to the armor, and spirits have a habit of enduring in this fantasy - we don't have a single thing that indicates that he is no longer contained within the armor, or the helm that Bolvar currently wears. Ner'zhul doesn't have to completely control Bolvar, he can still be an influencing force. And from Legion through BfA the Lich King has made some questionable moves that are not things that we would necessarily see from Bolvar as the Paladin we once knew, and they are not things that are benevolent or for the greater good.

Would a completely uninfluenced Bolvar really prompt us to slay multitudes of the red dragonflight?
He very directly says that he has his own schemes, and plans for Acherus should we die and leave it unprotected from his reach.
In obtaining our artifacts, he agrees to help us as an act of vengeance against the Legion - is that something that Bolvar or Ner'zhul would say?

He has very clearly changed in mentality since donning the helm, not unlike Arthas. He is not just the Bolvar we knew. Ner'zuhl still having some agency is the most obvious possibility, especially given some of the actions taken.

Necromancy, much like the fel, is corrupting. It has nothing to do with Arthas or Ner'zhul. Absolute power also corrupts absolutely. You really think that Bolvar gives a fuck if the Deathlord is still around? He made that comment about Acherus not as a threat but as a way to push the Deathlord to succeed. As for the red dragons, I wouldn't put it past him to do so as part of bitterness at Alexstrasza. Were it not for her flames keeping him going, the Lich King would not have been able to torture him the way he had.

Ner'zhul and Arthas are gone and there has been no indication of them having any presence at all anymore. I get that you don't actually care about the lore or what the devs say but that doesn't mean you're right.

[rhorle]

The page absolutely does not confirm that he's gone - that is an outright lie. It literally says that Arthas just ignores him after winning the mind games for control. You cannot ignore something that is gone. That is an asinine argument that you're making.

The mind game that was for who would be the last one standing, and in control, of the helm. Arthas utterly decimated him to just a wail. Before he reduced him to that wail Arthas drove him insane. There is no reason why it would Ner'zhul who would magically heal from that. Yes. It is very plausible that Bolvar might not care for the red dragon flight. Do you know who caused him to be burned, turned into a charcoal living person, and made it so he was tortured endlessly by arthas, only to have to take over the scourge in the end. Yep no possibility of resenting the red dragon flight at all.

And no Ner'zhul is not the most obvious possibility. Arthas is the most obvious one. You know the guy who was the last guy in full control? You are confusing most obvious with one what you like the best.

The scourge isn't currently aligned with major factions so there is no reason for him not to look out for himself. Blizzard has also been setting up Death and something greater for a while now. Vol'jin is a key player in that regard. Bolvar could simply be looking out for himself (and maybe even the scourge as he could have grown an affinity to his charges)

[Ielenia]

I personally think this is fake but tbh, that doesn't prove anything. The helm of damnation had glowing blue eyes which to me, shows the dominance of Ner'zhul. How do we know in this cinematic that Bolvar hasn't been further influenced by the helm, and that's why it glows blue?

Ner'zhul is no more. Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's spirit that inhabited the Helm of Damnation:
"For years, Arthas dreamed and reflected on his past. Eventually he banished the last vestiges of his humanity, and consumed Ner'zhul's spirit to become the sole personality of the Lich King."

[EbaumsTipster]

Ner'zhul is no more. Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul's spirit that inhabited the Helm of Damnation:
"For years, Arthas dreamed and reflected on his past. Eventually he banished the last vestiges of his humanity, and consumed Ner'zhul's spirit to become the sole personality of the Lich King."

Chronicles retconned it.

[wooootles]

His voice changed when he donned the Helm in ICC which more implies it's just a magical side effect of the item itself rather than it having anything to do with who is in control. And if he wasn't in complete control, the Scourge would be invading but he has been keeping them 100% in Northrend for going on seven years in lore with no slip ups.

I'm not talking about the literal sound of his voice. I am pointing out that's not like the Bolvar to send you to kill storm dragons, storm light chapel again, attacking paladins to raise Tirion etc... Bolvar is not in "complete control." At the very best he is playing a good "morally grey" guy whose not totally evil yet (which is in my opinion the way to go, I'd hate to raid him again)

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm not talking about the literal sound of his voice. I am pointing out that's not like the Bolvar to send you to kill storm dragons, storm light chapel again, attacking paladins to raise Tirion etc... Bolvar is not in "complete control." At the very best he is playing a good "morally grey" guy whose not totally evil yet (which is in my opinion the way to go, I'd hate to raid him again)

He is in complete control. As I pointed out above, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Necromancy is a corrupting magic just like the fel. Just because he is going mad with power doesn't mean he isn't in control.

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Chronicles retconned it.

Where in Chronicles was it retconned?

[Sluvs]

As recently as BfA, Bolvar was in complete control as the Lich King. To change it would just be Blizzard saying "fuck the lore" and introducing nostalgia back to the game. Which would just make the entire expansion fucking trash.

I mean, his blue eyes could be just for that scene and might mean nothing at all, imagine him talking with someone, he says some badass thing and Bam, fiery eyes. I could see that happening, or maybe he is using ice powers and the blue eyes are just for that moment.

[kaintk]

He has access to the office when everyone has left
What stops him from booting up one of the computers?

security code ? like yeah the blizzard computer have no password heh ? :P