retail: subtlety rogues don't have any rep for class balancing.

[shoegazing]

Sub is amazing when played well!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2e4lPgcr7k

It's only 2s, not even 2k rating, and by the way Pika makes anything look good. But, his clips from the MoP era are better.

[telygroar]

Sub was sold as the huge burst damage, huge finishers and slow damage between. It was the class identity.

Burst was "too hard", so got nerfed hard. Finishers too.

Slow damage between stayed the same.

So yeah, it's crap. I think the sub people on the logs are p-u or people who forgot to switch spec.
The only time I play/see people play sub are in RBG to cap flags with shadow duel.

[Kaver]

Sub was sold as the huge burst damage, huge finishers and slow damage between. It was the class identity.

Burst was "too hard", so got nerfed hard. Finishers too.

Slow damage between stayed the same.

So yeah, it's crap. I think the sub people on the logs are p-u or people who forgot to switch spec.
The only time I play/see people play sub are in RBG to cap flags with shadow duel.

The Sub spec is also broken when fighting 2-3 targets. It has no proper cleave.

[ZerFunk]

legion sub before shadowstrike's shadowstep nerf was so much fun, pvp and pve.
the big problem on bfa are the boring backstab phases.
i still main sub, the only non braindead spec imo

[Naiattavain]

There are people actually playing Sub?

i do play sub i play lesser often than other might think. its not fun at all it looses so badly compared to paladins. there should be a middle ground where players can notice an improvement. taken me this long to unlock flying in bfa. that is about the goal that i play to so after i get flying. im done playing for fun. i want to see sub compete with the rest of the game. give it something to feel proud. proud to play subtlety. just my honest feeling and thinking on the subject.

its just natural to feel good about your self. same concept apply s to subtlety. why my other sub friends stopped playing.

- - - Updated - - -

Just a small jumping in, discussing sub is fine, bashing other people is not.

thanks cold kill

[Socialhealer]

Yeah poor sub rogues, can't find the re-spec to the FotM outlaw spec, hard game is hard.

No seriously there is nothing to discuss this is how WoW has worked for years if a pure dps spec has 1-2 top tier performing specs blizzard does nothing or a poor band-aid fix to the crap specs because what does it matter? if you wanna have fun you'll play any of the 3 specs if you want to be competitive you'll play the best performing spec whatever it is.

This thread is nothing new welcome to how WoW has always worked.

[shoegazing]

The Sub spec is also broken when fighting 2-3 targets. It has no proper cleave.

Sub shouldn't have any cleave at all. It's a single target burst and control spec. Cleave/AoE for Sub = blatant homogenization which ruins the unique strengths and weaknesses of the spec.

legion sub before shadowstrike's shadowstep nerf was so much fun, pvp and pve.
the big problem on bfa are the boring backstab phases.
i still main sub, the only non braindead spec imo

Legion Sub was braindead garbage and anybody with a pulse could have told you during beta, like I did, that Shadowstrike would be nerfed into the dirt where it belongs. That ability shouldn't even exist but Ambush didn't have enough SpecFantasyTM for the paintlickers, I suppose.

Yeah poor sub rogues, can't find the re-spec to the FotM outlaw spec, hard game is hard.

No seriously there is nothing to discuss this is how WoW has worked for years if a pure dps spec has 1-2 top tier performing specs blizzard does nothing or a poor band-aid fix to the crap specs because what does it matter? if you wanna have fun you'll play any of the 3 specs if you want to be competitive you'll play the best performing spec whatever it is.

This thread is nothing new welcome to how WoW has always worked.

The issue isn't tuning. Sub isn't well designed currently so it doesn't deserve to be tuned competitively. Sub was a perfectly designed spec prior to Legion, hands down the best gameplay that WoW had to offer. Its tuning should remain in the dirt until the gameplay is restored to the all-time masterpiece that it used to be.

[omeomorfismo]

good, if i have to play another single time that spec only because its unbalanceable mechanics like in zul or all hellfire citadel i will puke aoe

[ZerFunk]

Legion Sub was braindead garbage and anybody with a pulse could have told you during beta, like I did, that Shadowstrike would be nerfed into the dirt where it belongs. That ability shouldn't even exist but Ambush didn't have enough SpecFantasyTM for the paintlickers, I suppose.

yeah it was pretty obvious that it needed a nerf, but sub + legiondary boots was pretty fun for me, also did pretty good numbers.
Im pretty sure you have a problem with this game mate, maybe you should just macro the abilities and use the old icons or something, cos your posts are garbage.

[Gasparde]

Yea, a 20% buff seems completely justified. Spec is basically dead useless in pve otherwise.

[Polarthief]

Yea, a 20% buff seems completely justified. Spec is basically dead useless in pve otherwise.

Looking at a low-parse spec always yields wonky results. Top Rogues are running Sub once or twice to get high parses. Look at Sivara for a good example: 140 parses and it's the third best spec? Yeah I don't think so.

[Gasparde]

Looking at a low-parse spec always yields wonky results. Top Rogues are running Sub once or twice to get high parses. Look at Sivara for a good example: 140 parses and it's the third best spec? Yeah I don't think so.

https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html

You like that one better?

Like, the spec might be unpopular, but I'd like to see an example showing that it's so bad it deserves 'at least' a 20% buff lol.

[Narzok]

a big part of what i don't like about sub (and some other speccs) is that certain azerite traits are basically mandatory.
i don't mind having options that are strong numbers-wise,
but when not having a certain traits makes your already clunky specc feel even worse, then you know something is wrong.
imagine playing sub without Shrouded Suffocation or The First Dance.

[Kaver]

Sub shouldn't have any cleave at all. It's a single target burst and control spec. Cleave/AoE for Sub = blatant homogenization which ruins the unique strengths and weaknesses of the spec.

Of course it should have Cleave. That's WoW in 2019. Get over it. I want to be able to play Sub in M+ and do good damage on 2-3 targets.

Also PVE >>>>>>>> PVP.

You should go live in the past on a MOP privat server.

[Feali]

a big part of what i don't like about sub (and some other speccs) is that certain azerite traits are basically mandatory.
i don't mind having options that are strong numbers-wise,
but when not having a certain traits makes your already clunky specc feel even worse, then you know something is wrong.
imagine playing sub without Shrouded Suffocation or The First Dance.

That's more of an Azerite issue than a spec design issue

[Varolyn]

https://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/T23_Raid.html

You like that one better?

Like, the spec might be unpopular, but I'd like to see an example showing that it's so bad it deserves 'at least' a 20% buff lol.

Look at rogue rankings for all three specs for M Sivarra and see how long it takes to find the first sub rogue.

[Gasparde]

Look at rogue rankings for all three specs for M Sivarra and see how long it takes to find the first sub rogue.

Being unpopular doesn't mean it requires heavy buffs. It might require heavy gameplay changes, but OP was claiming that sub is so shit that it'd at least require a 20% buff.

Like, yea, we get it, no one wants to play sub atm, welcome to SV Hunter and Arcane Mage for the last like 4 years now.

[Kaver]

imagine playing sub without Shrouded Suffocation

Well that's pretty easy to imagine since Shrouded Suffocation is a Assassination trait.

- - - Updated - - -

Being unpopular doesn't mean it requires heavy buffs. It might require heavy gameplay changes, but OP was claiming that sub is so shit that it'd at least require a 20% buff.

Like, yea, we get it, no one wants to play sub atm, welcome to SV Hunter and Arcane Mage for the last like 4 years now.

OP is not too clever. As you say, Sub requires heavy gameplay changes.

However, why do you even care? What is the deal with all these hunters coming into the Rogue forums and commenting on stuff that has nothing to do with them.

[Gasparde]

Didn't know this was a private club. Didn't know you had no say in the discussion unless you've got a vip pass.

When there's silly people making silly claims and demanding silly things everyone should be allowed to point out the silliness of said person.

Like, yea, sucks to be a sub fan right now. The reality of the situation is that it's not gonna just randomly change any time soon though. Other specs have been in similar situations for far longer and have received basically 0 attention. Sub is what it is and it will stay that way until the end of BFA - your only hope is 9.0 and that's about it.

[Narzok]

Well that's pretty easy to imagine since Shrouded Suffocation is a Assassination trait.

...i should not write while at work, brain is not set on WoW.... thanks for pointing this out.