Mega-Thread: Trump Focused Discussion

[Belize]

So how are farmer's holding up through Trump's tra-

Farm bankruptcies are up 24% to the highest level since 2011.

So...not great : /

Is it surprising considering the WH told small farmers to go get fucked?

[Xyonai]

That potential is there.

However, in actual fact, there's no quantifiable surge in harmful activity that would represent any such problem. Just cherry-picked separated incidents. There's a background "hum" of people behaving badly in any society, on all sides. The only grounds for concern is when activity creeps out above that background "hum". And there's no indication of such in terms of left-wing politically-motivated violence, in the USA right now.

Same reason that a single person being arrested for heroin possession isn't evidence that the city is collapsing under the weight of rampant drug use.
Same reason a single murder doesn't mean there's a host of predators out there slaughtering innocent civilians.

These individual outliers are reason for treating them individually, not as justification for claims of some sweeping societal problem.

You can make that argument, but you need to actually demonstrate there is a societal problem, with data, before you can make it.

Ah okay let me clarify a bit! I'm not trying to justify anything - though I apologize if I'm misreading the tone here - I'm just saying it's better to not be complacent about what one side does because the other does it worse. I agree there's no systemic outbreak of left leaning violence, just instances of individuals and whatever one wants to qualify Antifa's shenanigans as.

I'm more worried about making sure we don't end up like the right-leaning people who shrug at the systemic violence fueled by the rhetoric on their side, because we've made a habit of offhandedly brushing aside those instances on our own for so long as long as bodies never start adding up.

[Endus]

I love this example. @Xyonai warns about just because it doesn't happen as often doesn't mean we should tolerate it, I think any moral person would agree with this.

†Your example is a good one because yeah 1 heroin user doesn't mean you a city is collapsing, however one you start tolerating it and even pass a law lowering the criminalization of it it all of a sudden people flock to your city to do it as some CA cities are starting to learn.

Nothing I said involved tolerating anything, and you're having to insert that to manipulate what I was saying into something I was not.

If you can't respond to my argument without lying about what it is, don't waste my (or everyone else's) time.

[Edge-]

†Your example is a good one because yeah 1 heroin user doesn't mean you a city is collapsing, however one you start tolerating it and even pass a law lowering the criminalization of it it all of a sudden people flock to your city to do it as some CA cities are starting to learn.

What CA cities and policies? You realize that the opioid crisis is hitting everywhere, not just liberal areas...right? And that it's hitting conservative areas just as hard, and they're similarly learning that treating users purely as criminals isn't effective and are taking different approaches.

And there's data directly contradicting you - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...tes-save-lives

A 2014 review of 75 studies concluded such places promote safer injection conditions, reduce overdoses and increase access to health services. Supervised injection sites were associated with less outdoor drug use, and they did not appear to have any negative impacts on crime or drug use.

Milloy, who is part of a team that researches Insite, says it points to the benefits of supervised injection. The research was observational, drawing from unique datasets. Since 1996, well before Insite, researchers had followed 1500 active drug users in the city as part of one of the largest long-term studies of drug users in North America. They then recruited 1,050 people at Insite, and followed them over time as well.

Since opening in 2003, the facility has supervised more than 3.6 million injections and responded to more than 6,000 overdoses. No one has ever died there.

They found no signs of a so called "honey pot effect," at Insite, meaning it didn't increase or encourage drug use.

Interestingly, economists looked into naloxone, the overdose reversal drug, and its effects on drug use. Do you know what they found? That the availability and use of naloxone actually lead to people using more opioids because the threat of an overdose was reduced as people could be brought back from it with naloxone - https://www.statnews.com/2018/03/13/...-study-access/

So your argument remains a terrible one that's not backed up by any data.

[Belize]

Ah okay let me clarify a bit! I'm not trying to justify anything - though I apologize if I'm misreading the tone here - I'm just saying it's better to not be complacent about what one side does because the other does it worse. I agree there's no systemic outbreak of left leaning violence, just instances of individuals and whatever one wants to qualify Antifa's shenanigans as.

I'm more worried about making sure we don't end up like the right-leaning people who shrug at the systemic violence fueled by the rhetoric on their side, because we've made a habit of offhandedly brushing aside those instances on our own for so long as long as bodies never start adding up.

There's a difference between complacency and a refusal to equate two things.

Example: saying that 9/11 is worse than stealing a candy bar isn't normalizing the latter. Similarly, saying shooting up a Walmart or plowing at high speed through a peaceful crowd is worse than spitting on someone doesn't normalize anything.

[Breccia]

So...not great : /

Chapter 12 bankruptcy is a federal issue. Not only are US taxpayers paying money for Trump's socialist farmer bailout, but when that fails, US taxpayers are paying for that, too.

[Xyonai]

There's a difference between complacency and a refusal to equate two things.

Example: saying that 9/11 is worse than stealing a candy bar isn't normalizing the latter. Similarly, saying shooting up a Walmart or plowing at high speed through a peaceful crowd is worse than spitting on someone doesn't normalize anything.

I completely agree, and really I might just be becoming a worry wort about this sort of stuff the more and more this administration's existence seems to be driving a wedge between people. And, thinking on it now, I think 'normalizing' is what the folks trying to draw these comparisons have been trying to do.

Sorry for perpetuating the derailment, so I'll offer this Trump gaffe in apology: https://twitter.com/stewartsmithtwt/...695667714?s=21

[zenkai]

Nothing I said involved tolerating anything, and you're having to insert that to manipulate what I was saying into something I was not.

If you can't respond to my argument without lying about what it is, don't waste my (or everyone else's) time.

I expanded on your example Xyonai's example was about being complacent with violence against the right, and I expanded on your example what happens when you do you tolerate things.

[Stormspellz]

I love this example. @Xyonai warns about just because it doesn't happen as often doesn't mean we should tolerate it, I think any moral person would agree with this.

†Your example is a good one because yeah 1 heroin user doesn't mean you a city is collapsing, however one you start tolerating it and even pass a law lowering the criminalization of it it all of a sudden people flock to your city to do it as some CA cities are starting to learn.

again no one is tolerating it, but there is far bigger issues to use ones energy on it, that fact you keep coming back to it, and imply it is, speaks volumes of your "independent" self, and level of bad faith discussion you are at.

- - - Updated - - -

Chapter 12 bankruptcy is a federal issue. Not only are US taxpayers paying money for Trump's socialist farmer bailout, but when that fails, US taxpayers are paying for that, too.

also worth noting a great deal of the socialist bailout of farmers is actually going to corporate owned farms

[zenkai]

What CA cities and policies? You realize that the opioid crisis is hitting everywhere, not just liberal areas...right? And that it's hitting conservative areas just as hard, and they're similarly learning that treating users purely as criminals isn't effective and are taking different approaches.

And there's data directly contradicting you - https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...tes-save-lives





Interestingly, economists looked into naloxone, the overdose reversal drug, and its effects on drug use. Do you know what they found? That the availability and use of naloxone actually lead to people using more opioids because the threat of an overdose was reduced as people could be brought back from it with naloxone - https://www.statnews.com/2018/03/13/...-study-access/

So your argument remains a terrible one that's not backed up by any data.

Prop 57

Must Reads: California transformed its justice system. But now crime is up, and critics want rollbacks

[Skulltaker]

I'm just going to also post the pic from the tweet because err....



Here is the full version from the original tweet....

Please indulge a non-US citizen, but isn't that blue star-spangled ribbon for the Medal of Honor? And isn't that the highest decoration for a service member to be granted? Did they photoshop this in on a dog for a joke?

I don't want to downplay service animals, and I generally prefer dogs to people, but... this feels... disrespectful, at least from my point of view.

[Zan15]

This is actually good news. As I've posted before, Atlanta was predicting 1.8%.

Yep. Good news for Trump is that he fell below 2% less than expected.

The "good" news this week has been tremendous


First the 1.9% stagnant GDP.. After last Quarters 2.0%

https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product

Now even more bad news, decreasing wage growth

Current-dollar personal income increased $172.8 billion in the third quarter, compared with an increase of $244.2 billion in the second quarter. The deceleration reflected a downturn in personal income receipts on assets and decelerations in compensation and in personal current transfer receipts that were partly offset by an acceleration in proprietors’ income

Federal spending ramps up to support GDP

Federal Govt spending up 3.4% from preceding period. Local govt spending 1.1%
Two quarter increase in total spending increases of $38.4 and $16.2 billion.

Federal spending increase from prior Q ----> from 2015-2019 current Q
1.1 1.0 0.1 0.6 0.1 -0.4 Trump in office 1.1 0.7 1.7 Tax Cuts/Tariffs 2.7 2.8 3.6 2.7 2019 2.5 3.6 3.7

Notice those last two, 3.6 and 3.7%.

Now before you think its social programs.....

Defense = 4.0 5.8 4.8 4.5
Non defense = 0.7 -2.1 1.9 2.5


imagine the GDP without this huge increase???

And on to other "good news"

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/...e-king-of-debt

When President Obama nearly doubled the national debt, raising it by almost $9 trillion during his two terms in office, Republicans howled in alarm. Although interest rates were being kept artificially low by the U.S. Federal Reserve and global central banks in the aftermath of the Great Recession, there certainly would be a reckoning down the road when the bill came due.

This year, the U.S. national debt at roughly $22 trillion reached 100 percent of our gross domestic product (GDP) for the first time in American history
deficit of $984,388,000,000 during the fiscal year.

Then you get headlines on conservative media like this
"Federal Income Taxes and Federal Spending Both Set Records in FY19 "


Notice they specifically state "Federal income taxes" while leaving out the part that total tax collections is DOWN.
https://cnsnews.com/article/washingt...th-set-records

Total income tax collections is only up 5.5 billion dollars from last year....While spending was up 286 billion

Where is the massive tax collection increase, where is the trickle down, where are the results of the tax cut??? Hello?? Anyone???

Well corporation income taxes, which was up $25,512,000,000 from 2018......wow that sounds like good news...….ooops…….However, the $230,245,000,000 in corporation income taxes the Treasury collected in fiscal 2019 was down $225,715,590,000 from the $455,960,590,000 in corporation income taxes the Treasury collected in fiscal 2007.

Their rates have seen a steady decline, good thing we gave them another huge cut!!!


What else could possibly go wrong

remember those good job reports for last month...
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2019...onomy-adp.html

Private payroll gains in the month earlier were revised down to 93,000 from an originally reported 135,000 increase.

Should be interesting to see labor departments report next week to see if they revise down sept as well.

[zenkai]

again no one is tolerating it, but there is far bigger issues to use ones energy on it, that fact you keep coming back to it, and imply it is, speaks volumes of your "independent" self, and level of bad faith discussion you are at.

- - - Updated - - -



also worth noting a great deal of the socialist bailout of farmers is actually going to corporate owned farms

You're going to tell me that some people don't tolerate, hell even support violence against their opposing parties? seriously?

Because when Ran Paul had his ribs broke I read hundreds of comments of people cheering it on. That was just from a couple of sources, I am sure it could have ranged in the thousands.

[Stormspellz]

You're going to tell me that some people don't tolerate, hell even support violence against their opposing parties? seriously?

Because when Ran Paul had his ribs broke I read hundreds of comments of people cheering it on. That was just from a couple of sources, I am sure it could have ranged in the thousands.

I'll worry about "that" when you start worrying about the ever rising body count of yall'queda, and stop trying argue they are in the same galaxy of importance and relevance

[mvaliz]

They photoshopped out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_McCloughan and edited in the dog and fake medal. It’s disgraceful.

Was going to say, that's a real half-assed Photoshop job there. I'd almost say intentionally bad >_<

[zenkai]

I'll worry about "that" when you start worrying about the ever rising body count of yall'queda, and stop trying argue they are in the same galaxy of importance and relevance

I worry about it all, I worry about people tolerating violence to either side of the isle, I worry about the whataboutism that shrugs it off as no big deal.

[Zan15]

Another Trumphater in action....[url] S N I P:

Don't mind Ghostpanther he does the same thing in the gun control thread.

will post a feel good story about a "good guy with a gun" every once and a while...when he can find the scant good news story vs the bad ones.....

Now he's trolling this topic and will pull out any instance no matter how small and insignificant....about Trump supporters, poor snowflake needing safe places trump supporters.....

But somehow its an ok tactic....even though its meant to drive...well you know.. wink wink bait bait.

I couldn't imagine being so triggered that I verbally or physically harass someone because they support someone I don't. I guess it's hard to imagine because I am an educated adult.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/impeachment-inquiry-10-30-2019/h_79f2a3bb9ff5eaedf5d6104aaa25f62b

imagine being so triggered that you give death threats.....without even knowing whom it is......

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/army-veteran-says-attacks-by-trump-allies-on-wounded-warrior-purple-heart-recipient-vindman-are-disgusting/ar-AAJxHPC?li=BBnb7Kz

imagine attacking someone, a decorated someone, a veteran…..just because they don't support someone...….(our president and half of fox news)

[Stormspellz]

I worry about it all, I worry about people tolerating violence to either side of the isle, I worry about the whataboutism that shrugs it off as no big deal.

and no one here believes you, your entire time on these forums is defending, deflecting, and miss representing if not out right lying in service of emperor trump

[Edge-]

https://www.motherjones.com/politics...o-deportation/

Ken Cuccinelli, whom President Donald Trump is considering appointing as homeland security chief using an obscure and legally dubious maneuver, admitted Wednesday that he made the controversial decision to subject critically ill immigrant children to deportation.

The rule change in question would have eliminated temporary protection from deportation for migrants in need of vital medical care. It was ultimately reversed amid public outcry.

These people are abhorrent and should have no place in the US government. Conservatives and the Republican Party are allowing this kind of amoral, deplorable behavior.

[Zan15]

You're going to tell me that some people don't tolerate, hell even support violence against their opposing parties? seriously?

Because when Ran Paul had his ribs broke I read hundreds of comments of people cheering it on. That was just from a couple of sources, I am sure it could have ranged in the thousands.

and when harry Reid fell at home...….had nothing to do with politics just like the Rand Paul attack.... But the comments, holy hell....just because he was a democrat....


Rand paul attack had nothing to do with his politics....it was because he thought rand paul was being a douche of a neighbor.. and turns out he was being one!

On Nov. 3, the day of the altercation, Mr. Paul was mowing his lawn in Bowling Green while wearing headphones when Mr. Boucher ran over and tackled the lawmaker, according to a news release from federal prosecutors. The neighbor said he had “had enough” after watching Mr. Paul stack a pile of brush near the property line between their two yards, the release said.


Mr. Baker said in an interview earlier this week that Mr. Paul’s tendency to pile brush near his neighbor’s property had been a consistent irritant to his client. The day before the attack, Mr. Baker said, Mr. Boucher had decided to burn a pile of brush placed near his land — suffering second-degree burns in the process


This issue had been festering for several months,” Mr. Baker said in an interview. “Unfortunately it ended the way it did.”


Mr. Baker said his client, a registered Democrat, had no political motives for attacking Mr. Paul, a Republican. The defense had pushed for a sentence without jail time, citing a lack of prior criminal charges. Mr. Baker said that Mr. Boucher was “deeply remorseful” over the incident