The Scourge is overrated

[dojichan]

Yes, that's what I meant with Deathwing and N'zoth would have had the world in their bag a lot faster. I only named some examples with the Old Gods taking Hyjal (including the corrupted versions of the Ancients, which then would have been on their side) and the Naga taking Vash'jir and then Stormwind/the Eastern Kingdoms in almost no time, but you are right, there would have been a lot more that the Old Gods could have done without any interference by the 'heroes' and, as I also pointed out, they would have been aware that Arthas won at Icecrown, so would have (and could have) moved against him a lot faster too.
Which is why I think Arthas would not have had time to raise Galakkrond to fight against Deathwing (which was the premise of that specific discussion I had). Arthas had one chance to do it, he knew it and he tried, but it didn't work and then the chance was over, no matter if he had won at Icecrown.

I don't agree with the assumption that the world would be weaker. Everytime a creature was raised as undead it was stronger(at least major creatures). So if the LK had won, he would suddenly have the heroes under his control. They would very likely be stronger then they were before...And those are the same heroes that stopped Deathwing/Legion etc. The LK wasn't blood thirsty at this point. Many of the dragons, titans, and such would have worked with him as they worked with us because they always work with anyone willing to help them.

[formerShandalay]

I don't agree with the assumption that the world would be weaker. Everytime a creature was raised as undead it was stronger(at least major creatures). So if the LK had won, he would suddenly have the heroes under his control. They would very likely be stronger then they were before...And those are the same heroes that stopped Deathwing/Legion etc. The LK wasn't blood thirsty at this point. Many of the dragons, titans, and such would have worked with him as they worked with us because they always work with anyone willing to help them.

Yea, but remember how and why they did that. They were called by the dragons, by the Earthen Ring and the Cenarion Circle and worked with them to get the desired results. Do you really think those people would call upon the Lich King and have him send his newly risen mind-controlled 'heroes' to work together with them? Do you really, actually think they would have believed him that he wasn't working with the Old Gods?
And, as I pointed out several times, the Old Gods would have been aware that the Lich King won and now had the 'heroes', so they would not have to waste any more resources on anything else but going after the Scourge. He would be their prime target, everything else is easily conquered and the Lich King would have to fight back alone. He was only allowed his respite, because he had lost and posed no threat at that time.
So he'd have to make a choice: send his champions to fight alongside the others and push the Old Gods back in those several places they attacked (possibly against those other factions that may have not been convinced he was actually on their side) or keep them by his side and have them fight back against the Old God forces that moved on Icecrown?

[Rafoel]

He only lost mind control over the undeads in Lordaeron (who became the Forsaken). When Arthas won, he didn't gain back this control, otherwise Forsaken wouldn't even exist in WoW.
But let's pretend that he lost control over a big part of the undeads even in Northrend : Where was that "giant unstoppable" army which would destroy all Azeroth without someone controlling them?

There was no army. WotLK lore didn't exist when WC3 campaign was designed. Plague was created to create army of undead in LORDAREON. In WC3 lore Northrend was a frozen barren rock. No vrykuls, giants, dragons, tuskarr... no anything (oh, only nerubians I guess). There was nothing to make an army from. Then WotLK retconned that part... because we needed actual content for an expansion. Doesn't change the fact that Lich King DID lose control over vast majority of the Scourge when frozen throne was damaged. As I said - its the main plot point of entire campaign.

- - - Updated - - -

Galakrond was defeated by Neltharion and Malygos making him choke on a rock, before the Charge of the Aspects happened. And then Deathwing got additional empowerment from the Old Gods. And wore Elementium plating that made him pretty much invulnerable to anything other than a time travel deus ex machina to get the Dragon Soul.

Choking someone with a rock sounds like a legit way of achieving victory. Have we tried choking Deathwing with a rock? How do you know it wouldn't work? Was his throat also plated with Elementium? Would it even help?

[dojichan]

Yea, but remember how and why they did that. They were called by the dragons, by the Earthen Ring and the Cenarion Circle and worked with them to get the desired results. Do you really think those people would call upon the Lich King and have him send his newly risen mind-controlled 'heroes' to work together with them? Do you really, actually think they would have believed him that he wasn't working with the Old Gods?
And, as I pointed out several times, the Old Gods would have been aware that the Lich King won and now had the 'heroes', so they would not have to waste any more resources on anything else but going after the Scourge. He would be their prime target, everything else is easily conquered and the Lich King would have to fight back alone. He was only allowed his respite, because he had lost and posed no threat at that time.
So he'd have to make a choice: send his champions to fight alongside the others and push the Old Gods back in those several places they attacked (possibly against those other factions that may have not been convinced he was actually on their side) or keep them by his side and have them fight back against the Old God forces that moved on Icecrown?

The thing is; This is all huge speculation; You like to assume the old gods would have played their hands perfectly. I am only proposing that LK could do the same;
With the heroes fallen, he could show his true strength and easily conquer all of northrend; -This is both stated by him and when you look at how decimated the forces are...it is easy to believe the horde and alliance would fall to their own heroes;

The old gods: At this point C'thun had been defeated and so had Yogg-saron.
Corruption of the Dream; The biggest threat to the dream was Xavier which we freed; If we never freed him to help us, the dream would likely have been safer for a longer time(not shorter); Especially if LK either ignored the dreamers or converted them into undead dreamers.
Nzoth; His pieces were deathwing(which is your point) and the naga(which are not very effective against the undead)
G'huun: Nzoth and zul did wish to free G'huun but it took them a long time; They didn't wait because they wanted to wait for an opening; It took them a long time to corrupt the zandalari and their enemies in order to overcome the titans; So it is likely they would have taken the same amount of time and thus similar outcome;
Y'Shaarj- He was the greatest threat to LK cause it is likely the LK would have fallen to pride as much as Garrosh did. But like G'huun his plans of return required help which took time and who knows what it would have looked like by then. Don't forget that the horde helped free pride and strengthen the sins; Non- of which would have happened if the LK had won.
So I dont agree with you assumption that "Everything else is easily conquered". Hell it might be harder. We saw what happened when arthas returned home; How quickly he conquered his home. If he did the same with each "hero" and all the leaders in northrend; The alliance and horde would quickly become undead which would make them immune to most of the manipulation of the old gods. The mindless scourge are the weakness of Y'Shaarj and of Nzoth because they cannot be manipulated directly;

Back to deathwing; There are many things LK could have done after conquering Northrend; When faced with either fighting deathwing alone, or fighting with the LK the earthen ring/cenarion circle/ and dragons would likely have worked with the LK. All of these factions worked with anyone in order to defeat what they think are the biggest threats (For the same reason they worked with Death Knights and the forsaken). Even if they didn't; If the LK waged war against them, any fallen foe would become his ally. If he killed the earthen ring/ cenarion circle or dragons then he would have them under his control(and stronger); But lets ignore them for a moment;
When deathwing first comes, he doesn't just destroy the world; In his arrogance, he gives us time to recover and slowly attack his forces; He likely would do the same for the LK. The raid bosses in Bastion and Blackrock are all things he could raise up to join him; Same with Baradin Hold; The dragon soul was from an alternate timeline; If LK killed and raised each of the dragon flights he could get it and empower it with us; So yeah it is reasonable to assume deathwing would have lost to the LK.

But all of this is speculation like yours; There are reasons to believe the LK would have been better at defending the world; The LK at full strength is a swarm and swarms are powerful.

[formerShandalay]

The thing is; This is all huge speculation; You like to assume the old gods would have played their hands perfectly. I am only proposing that LK could do the same;
With the heroes fallen, he could show his true strength and easily conquer all of northrend; -This is both stated by him and when you look at how decimated the forces are...it is easy to believe the horde and alliance would fall to their own heroes;

The old gods: At this point C'thun had been defeated and so had Yogg-saron.
Corruption of the Dream; The biggest threat to the dream was Xavier which we freed; If we never freed him to help us, the dream would likely have been safer for a longer time(not shorter); Especially if LK either ignored the dreamers or converted them into undead dreamers.
Nzoth; His pieces were deathwing(which is your point) and the naga(which are not very effective against the undead)
G'huun: Nzoth and zul did wish to free G'huun but it took them a long time; They didn't wait because they wanted to wait for an opening; It took them a long time to corrupt the zandalari and their enemies in order to overcome the titans; So it is likely they would have taken the same amount of time and thus similar outcome;
Y'Shaarj- He was the greatest threat to LK cause it is likely the LK would have fallen to pride as much as Garrosh did. But like G'huun his plans of return required help which took time and who knows what it would have looked like by then. Don't forget that the horde helped free pride and strengthen the sins; Non- of which would have happened if the LK had won.
So I dont agree with you assumption that "Everything else is easily conquered". Hell it might be harder. We saw what happened when arthas returned home; How quickly he conquered his home. If he did the same with each "hero" and all the leaders in northrend; The alliance and horde would quickly become undead which would make them immune to most of the manipulation of the old gods. The mindless scourge are the weakness of Y'Shaarj and of Nzoth because they cannot be manipulated directly;

Back to deathwing; There are many things LK could have done after conquering Northrend; When faced with either fighting deathwing alone, or fighting with the LK the earthen ring/cenarion circle/ and dragons would likely have worked with the LK. All of these factions worked with anyone in order to defeat what they think are the biggest threats (For the same reason they worked with Death Knights and the forsaken). Even if they didn't; If the LK waged war against them, any fallen foe would become his ally. If he killed the earthen ring/ cenarion circle or dragons then he would have them under his control(and stronger); But lets ignore them for a moment;
When deathwing first comes, he doesn't just destroy the world; In his arrogance, he gives us time to recover and slowly attack his forces; He likely would do the same for the LK. The raid bosses in Bastion and Blackrock are all things he could raise up to join him; Same with Baradin Hold; The dragon soul was from an alternate timeline; If LK killed and raised each of the dragon flights he could get it and empower it with us; So yeah it is reasonable to assume deathwing would have lost to the LK.

But all of this is speculation like yours; There are reasons to believe the LK would have been better at defending the world; The LK at full strength is a swarm and swarms are powerful.

Yes, it's speculation, that is right of course And it's gone way farther than I first anticipated too
All I wanted to say was, I doubt the Lich King could have raised Galakkrond as a weapon against Deathwing, when he couldn't do so while everyone was still distracted (Nexus War going on, Yogg Saron stirring... etc), because had he won at Icecrown, he'd have been attacked by N'zoth right away. That Deathwing corpse we saw atop Wyrmrest could have fit onto Icecrown too. N'zoth didn't care about Deathwing apart from him taking heat away from the actual forces that N'zoth sent. Deathwing's death was always part of the plan. And had the Lich King been victorious, he'd have been a prime target, exactly because he had proven himself as so strong and had the heroes. So what would have stopped N'zoth from attacking with his actual army (like the maws, the faceless and everything) at once and making Deathwing impale himself on Icecrown, so his blood would burn everything there for the next 10k years?

[tikcol]

Speculatively speaking, I would wager that the Litch King could in-fact blow up Azuroth if he wanted to. Nerzul (who's soul resides in the crown) shattered Dreanor into Outlands on his own -- and that was before he got the power upgrade of the helm.

I would suspect that the scourge is the most unstoppable killing force in the game -- even more then the Legion. I mean the Legion sorta feared the Litch King -- they wanted to kill him before he got too powerful.

Demons might be immune to the plague, but they are not immune to reanimation -- we saw so with Guldan rezzing the first undead Mannoroth as a construct before bringing him back entirely. In a war with the Legion, over time, they could reanimate every fallen demon and have even more numbers. Though I honestly don't see how the Scourge could kill Sargeras himself. Sargeras is just too big/powerful, imo.

He did not shatter draenor intentionally. It was basically an accident and the way it happened was basically he opened a few portals to other worlds, entered one of them and somehow energies destroyed draenor

[dojichan]

Yes, it's speculation, that is right of course And it's gone way farther than I first anticipated too
All I wanted to say was, I doubt the Lich King could have raised Galakkrond as a weapon against Deathwing, when he couldn't do so while everyone was still distracted (Nexus War going on, Yogg Saron stirring... etc), because had he won at Icecrown, he'd have been attacked by N'zoth right away. That Deathwing corpse we saw atop Wyrmrest could have fit onto Icecrown too. N'zoth didn't care about Deathwing apart from him taking heat away from the actual forces that N'zoth sent. Deathwing's death was always part of the plan. And had the Lich King been victorious, he'd have been a prime target, exactly because he had proven himself as so strong and had the heroes. So what would have stopped N'zoth from attacking with his actual army (like the maws, the faceless and everything) at once and making Deathwing impale himself on Icecrown, so his blood would burn everything there for the next 10k years?

N'zoths plan was to enrage deathwing and use him as a distraction (and let him cause bonus damage) while he was attacking with his forces; He tried this exact plan against the Horde and Alliance; The horde and alliance stopped this plan(while fighting each other); The LK would neither have in fighting and would have stronger versions of the same heroes; Why would N'zoth have an easier time against them then he had against the living? AKA LK>Living implies that anything the Living beat...the LK could too.

The LK had dozens of plans going on at once in order to defeat the world; He was as distracted as the dragonflight/heroes when he was trying to rez Galakkrond; Once he has the heroes...He is less distracted; And everyone else is MORE distracted with the rise of deathwing; It is a flip of a coin if he could have done it.

I can't find any lore that says N'zoth could force deathwing to suicide; As far as I understand, we don't know for sure how it happened when we visit the End of Time. If you have link or quote of this I would love to hear it

[formerShandalay]

N'zoths plan was to enrage deathwing and use him as a distraction (and let him cause bonus damage) while he was attacking with his forces; He tried this exact plan against the Horde and Alliance; The horde and alliance stopped this plan(while fighting each other); The LK would neither have in fighting and would have stronger versions of the same heroes; Why would N'zoth have an easier time against them then he had against the living? AKA LK>Living implies that anything the Living beat...the LK could too.

The LK had dozens of plans going on at once in order to defeat the world; He was as distracted as the dragonflight/heroes when he was trying to rez Galakkrond; Once he has the heroes...He is less distracted; And everyone else is MORE distracted with the rise of deathwing; It is a flip of a coin if he could have done it.

I can't find any lore that says N'zoth could force deathwing to suicide; As far as I understand, we don't know for sure how it happened when we visit the End of Time. If you have link or quote of this I would love to hear it

No, I don't think N'zoth would have had an easier time against the Scourge than against the Living, quite the contrary. Horde and Alliance went to war almost immediately following the Lich King's defeat and I do not think Garrosh or Varian would have held back in case the Lich King won, because they would have had even more reason to be at each others' throat, blaming each other for the defeat in addition to simply wanting to kill each other. Hyjal would have fallen within a few days after Deathwing's emergence, then the corrupted Ancients would have been added to N'zoth's army.

Most importantly here, in my opinion, this would all have been easy for Deathwing and N'zoth and hardly worthy of any big attention. The Scourge, however, would have been the real threat for them and they would have acted accordingly. That is the point. You send your strongest forces and the mightiest parts of your army against the biggest threat. And what we saw was, that N'zoth sent a lot of his forces all around the world to attack everywhere at once. The living, however, would have been weak, a lot weaker, had the Lich King won, so N'zoth could have afforded a lot more of his attention, armies and power towards dealing with the Scourge. Because he would have needed to.
Again, the point is, the Lich King would have been attacked sooner and with a lot more force because he was so strong and would have been the only actual threat to N'zoth's plans.
Another point being, only the Lich King with his Scourge would not have been enough and he would have been alone against Deathwing and N'zoth, because no one would have believed him that he was genuine in wanting to help against the Old Gods (a bit like Illidan in BC^^).

And really, in the grand scheme of things I think the Lich King knew he had one chance to raise Galakkrond and tried to take it, because he could not have tried it later on. Had he thought that he could still do it or have even better chances at doing it as soon as he had the champions, he could have just waited and tried it then, maybe used his troops somewhere else, especially Antiok. The Lich King was no fool and only lost because the Light suddenly decided it would help Tirion more than Uther. His plans up to that point worked just fine (except for the gamble with Galakkrond).



Regarding your last question, as far as I know we don't know what exactly happened to Deathwing and why he was impaled there, but his death along with the other Aspects was shown in a vision to Ysera, so I assume that it was always part of the plan. And I simply don't know who or what could have impaled Deathwing atop Wyrmrest unless he did it himself, so that is just my guess, really Maybe one or two of the C'thaxxi could have done it, but I'm not even sure about that. ^^

But if N'zoth had no direct control over Deathwing, but only drove him on by feeding his mad rage against specific targets, he could still have sent him to the Dragonblight to swallow an army and the Lich King (in case he would have come out of the citadel to raise Galakkrond himself) and maybe get injured and bleed all over Galakkrond's skeleton.

[Magical Mudcrab]

A quest in Icecrown showed that members of the Cult of the Damned had to drink a concoction that bound them to the Lich King's will all the same.

Off-hand I didn't remember this quest, had to quickly look it up. That's a fair point, though it seems to impose the same loyalty to the Lich King that being resurrected would. So I'm not sure if this is something which simply instills obedience in the weak willed and can be overcome (similarly to Darion and the Death Knights turning against Arthas) or not.

The Legion appearing later on than they did only means they'd get more time to capture the Titans and proceed with their Dark Pantheon plan. At the very least they'd have captured Eonar.

Also, the Scourge had nothing against Deathwing. Even if they managed to travel through time to get the Dragon Soul, they still would have needed a World Shaman to act as a replacement for Deathwing when charging it for the second time to actually make it work against him. And undeath doesn't exactly mesh well with Shamanism. The same applies to preventing the Elemental Planes from collapsing into Azeroth after Deathwing caused the initial Cataclysm. And dealing with Chromatus.

Likewise, undeath doesn't mesh well with Druidism either, so Scourge would have trouble against the Emerald Nightmare, particularly if Xavius repeated what he did in Stormrage. The Scourge would have also trouble against Azshara on her turf. And Old Gods' forces in general can also raise undead themselves and fight fire with fire. And then there are the denizens of Shadowlands.

So, regarding Deathwing, I don't think he would be an issue for the Scourge to deal with logistically, I don't buy that the only way to defeat him has to be with the Dragon Soul. I see most scenarios down the line of the Lich King prevailing as always becoming a war of attrition with Deathwing, which I think heavily favors the Scourge. It seems like it would effectively be the: Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflights vs. Living Alliance/Horde + Red Dragonflight vs. Deathwing + Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight.
The Scourge would, at this point, effectively be in complete control Northrend (the only real opposition was the Dragons at Wyrmrest, and they're either focusing on Deathwing, are traitors, or MIA), leaving them open to do as they wish to Galakrond. Fights between the `Champions of Azeroth` and `Deathwing's Forces` would be beneficial to the Scourge (such as in the case of the Twilight Highlands, which is littered with dead dragons). The one trump-card Deathwing has is unleashing the second cataclysm, but all we know about that are vague details of that are from End Time; we really don't know enough about it to say whether it would just wipe out the Scourge or do nothing (though I'd err on the side of it being somewhere in-between, along the lines of the first cataclysm).

There are some specifics I can't answer, such as I don't know whether the Scourge would be able to do something about - or even care - about the goings-on in Deepholm, though I would suspect that anything the players did do, the Scourge could effectively do in Deepholm.
Regarding Chromatus, I don't think he would be an issue. Not because I think the Scourge had some super master plan to defeat him, but simply because I think the Scourge controlling Northrend would lend them to having a more vested interest in the Blue Dragonflight and the The Nexus/Dragonblight. This would likely mean the Twilight Hammer probably wouldn't have an opportunity to move Chromatus there. Though, if Chromatus were given life elsewhere, I have no idea how the Scourge would deal with it.

Regarding the Emerald Nightmare, that's actually not something I thought about and is probably the silver bullet here. Given Y'sera may still be alive at that time, there doesn't seem to be a way for the Scourge to get access. There's also the question about whether Y'sera still being alive would be a blessing (by ensuring the corruption doesn't occur) or a curse (falling to the corruption, Legion-style), and in the latter situation, I can't see the Scourge winning without some ass-pull.

- - - Updated - - -

The maws in the Dragonblight can't just have been put there over night, they had to have been there all along just 'closed' and hidden.

If this had been true, and the Old Gods had an invasion substantial enough to be dangerous to Wyrmrest read and in-place since the beginning of Cataclysm, why wouldn't they ambush the Dragons at Wyrmrest and remove their leadership?

But let's go with Arthas attacking the dragons right away after he had won at Icecrown to gain control of Galakkrond, they are still fighting as Deathwing emerges and at least Ysera has to go to Hyjal. The dragons still have a new Blue Aspect to help them now (that was independent from the heroes doing anything and the Blues wouldn't have joined them in the fight before that either way).

Should say first off, Kalecgos wouldn't be the Aspect of Magic at this time -- he doesn't become the aspect until after the situation in Hyjal is resolved and Ragnaros is killed.
That said, Arthas' plan wasn't so quick to unfold. The plan was for the 'champions' to return to their capital cities and assassinate the leadership, as he did with his father because Arthas is a sick, diry boy. This would either take weeks or months for the heroes to finally disperse and have the opportunity. You could argue about whether or not Arthas would have looked to retake Dragonblight before or after Deathwing's emergence, but the Alexstraza, the only aspect really present at Wyrmrest at the time, would probably elect to deal with Deathwing over the Scourge (especially with their history).

If the Argent Crusade and the 'heroes' had been part of the Scourge by the time Deathwing emerged, who would have stopped him and N'zoth from going against the biggest army on Azeroth at once and not months later? Deathwing swoops over the world, destroys everything, Horde and Alliance fight anyway (because Varian and Garrosh wanted to, 'heroes' didn't matter in that). Twilight Hammer and Ragnaros burn down Nordrassil without being stopped, the Ancients join them (the corrupted versions), the Naga take over Vash'jir and from there Stormwind and the rest of the Eastern Kingdoms. The rest of the Old God forces and Deathwing have only one possible resistance and that is the Scourge in this case, so that's where they go, of course. Right away, not after a few months, the rest of the world gets conquered in one fell swoop anyway.

The Alliance and Horde would still exist, just not in the form as they currently are. I can conceive that they would operate as they were for months (possibly even years) following their leaders conversion to undeath (obviously, without their knowing); however, I see it as eventually looking a little like:
The Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflight
vs. Remnant Alliance/Horde + Red/Blue/Green/Bronze Dragonflights
vs. Deathwing + The Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight
I don't list the elemental lords because they're not really a unified front with Deathwing. Al'akir and Ragnaros are loosely following some plan, but it always struck me that it's an alliance of convenience, Neptulon and Therazane either outright work against the plans or ignore them.

[ArenaDk]

If you really think Lich King wouldn't be able to destroy Deathwing any other way... he could just ressurect Galakrond, who is 10x the size of Deathwing, and could stomp him into ground like a fly.

You know when they fought Deathwing was as big as a proto Drake? Now Deathwing is a big as the whole zone. Gala might not be much bigger anymore. Also Deathwing can use magic and isn’t a living being anymore

[TheFirstOnes]

See you in Shadowlands then...

[formerShandalay]

Off-hand I didn't remember this quest, had to quickly look it up. That's a fair point, though it seems to impose the same loyalty to the Lich King that being resurrected would. So I'm not sure if this is something which simply instills obedience in the weak willed and can be overcome (similarly to Darion and the Death Knights turning against Arthas) or not.



So, regarding Deathwing, I don't think he would be an issue for the Scourge to deal with logistically, I don't buy that the only way to defeat him has to be with the Dragon Soul. I see most scenarios down the line of the Lich King prevailing as always becoming a war of attrition with Deathwing, which I think heavily favors the Scourge. It seems like it would effectively be the: Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflights vs. Living Alliance/Horde + Red Dragonflight vs. Deathwing + Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight.
The Scourge would, at this point, effectively be in complete control Northrend (the only real opposition was the Dragons at Wyrmrest, and they're either focusing on Deathwing, are traitors, or MIA), leaving them open to do as they wish to Galakrond. Fights between the `Champions of Azeroth` and `Deathwing's Forces` would be beneficial to the Scourge (such as in the case of the Twilight Highlands, which is littered with dead dragons). The one trump-card Deathwing has is unleashing the second cataclysm, but all we know about that are vague details of that are from End Time; we really don't know enough about it to say whether it would just wipe out the Scourge or do nothing (though I'd err on the side of it being somewhere in-between, along the lines of the first cataclysm).

There are some specifics I can't answer, such as I don't know whether the Scourge would be able to do something about - or even care - about the goings-on in Deepholm, though I would suspect that anything the players did do, the Scourge could effectively do in Deepholm.
Regarding Chromatus, I don't think he would be an issue. Not because I think the Scourge had some super master plan to defeat him, but simply because I think the Scourge controlling Northrend would lend them to having a more vested interest in the Blue Dragonflight and the The Nexus/Dragonblight. This would likely mean the Twilight Hammer probably wouldn't have an opportunity to move Chromatus there. Though, if Chromatus were given life elsewhere, I have no idea how the Scourge would deal with it.

Regarding the Emerald Nightmare, that's actually not something I thought about and is probably the silver bullet here. Given Y'sera may still be alive at that time, there doesn't seem to be a way for the Scourge to get access. There's also the question about whether Y'sera still being alive would be a blessing (by ensuring the corruption doesn't occur) or a curse (falling to the corruption, Legion-style), and in the latter situation, I can't see the Scourge winning without some ass-pull.

- - - Updated - - -



If this had been true, and the Old Gods had an invasion substantial enough to be dangerous to Wyrmrest read and in-place since the beginning of Cataclysm, why wouldn't they ambush the Dragons at Wyrmrest and remove their leadership?



Should say first off, Kalecgos wouldn't be the Aspect of Magic at this time -- he doesn't become the aspect until after the situation in Hyjal is resolved and Ragnaros is killed.
That said, Arthas' plan wasn't so quick to unfold. The plan was for the 'champions' to return to their capital cities and assassinate the leadership, as he did with his father because Arthas is a sick, diry boy. This would either take weeks or months for the heroes to finally disperse and have the opportunity. You could argue about whether or not Arthas would have looked to retake Dragonblight before or after Deathwing's emergence, but the Alexstraza, the only aspect really present at Wyrmrest at the time, would probably elect to deal with Deathwing over the Scourge (especially with their history).



The Alliance and Horde would still exist, just not in the form as they currently are. I can conceive that they would operate as they were for months (possibly even years) following their leaders conversion to undeath (obviously, without their knowing); however, I see it as eventually looking a little like:
The Scourge + Undead Alliance/Horde + Galakrond/Undead Dragonflight
vs. Remnant Alliance/Horde + Red/Blue/Green/Bronze Dragonflights
vs. Deathwing + The Twilight Cult + Twilight Dragonflight
I don't list the elemental lords because they're not really a unified front with Deathwing. Al'akir and Ragnaros are loosely following some plan, but it always struck me that it's an alliance of convenience, Neptulon and Therazane either outright work against the plans or ignore them.

Well, the thing with Kalec is a bit strange, because in the book it happened a bit different and before the actual Cataclysm even happened (but not sure anymore, have not read the whole thing in a long time ^^)
But really, he is unimportant at that time, because the only thing that is important is that Malygos isn't attacking the other flights anymore and the distraction caused by the Nexus War is gone. So until the Cataclysm the other dragons are free to try and stop the Lich King, when he attacks them. If he wants Galakrond before Deathwing rises from Deepholm, he needs to attack them and go for it. So he'd have a war with the dragonflights on his hands. He would win this, but not quickly. If Arthas attacked full force, they'd put up a real fight and it wouldn't just be Alexstrasza there.

Alliance and Horde I strongly disagree that they would not notice if their leaders were converted, especially if you take into account that on the Alliance side half of the palace guards and both the leaders of the Church of the Holy Light were secretly N'zoth's agents. So, no, Arthas could not have Alliance and Horde, unless he fights for it, which is another warfront opened. Would he win? Yes, but not quickly.
Unless he could go for it and take it all over in one fell swoop while everyone is still sleeping from the Nightmare-attack. I do not know how that works if N'zoth already has their souls in his grasp. Had the Scourge attacked during that, maybe it would have been good for N'zoth, because Malfurion and the druids would have been distracted.

So about that attack from the Old God forces in Dragonblight. This attack on the dragons had to take place with the right timing and after all the other battlefields were won. But! it was mainly necessary because Thrall was there and could help the Dragonflights. Had the Lich King won, Thrall would still be leader of the Horde and as such, converted to undeath. No need for Deathwing to divert resources so he could take the united Dragonflights and whatnot, no 'world shaman' ready to interfere, nothing.

Again, two problems for Arthas: 1. Time, because he'd have to fight his way to actual world dominance every step of the way and he would have to achieve it by the time Deathwing beaks out of Deepholm, because as soon as that happens, 2. he is the only target left for Deathwing and N'zoth.
And I disagree on at least Ragnaros, he was firmly under the control of N'zoth. So N'zoth takes the Ancients, (which is kind of a thing) the second Well of Eternity atop Mount Hyjal in a matter of days. N'zoth doesn't have to divert any resources to fight anyone else but the Lich King and can start attacking Dragonblight at once, without the dragonflights putting up a fight (apart from the ones that are already under the Lich King's control), no world shaman, no Dragonsoul to fight him with. Also, N'zoth brings Ragnaros to the battlefield, which does seem kind of a problem for an undead army.

So again, to me it seems more like had the Lich King tried an actual power move after winning at Ice Crown by taking the Alliance and Horde leaders and raising Galakrond, this would have been his undoing. As he would still have been Arthas at that point, he probably would have tried that.
Had he done nothing and simply acted very secretly, gathered power and put his champions into place for maybe a push when the actual fight in the Dragonblight begins, his chances may have been better, but mainly because everyone else could have acted the same way and beaten back Deathwing and N'zoth at every turn like they did when Arthas lost at Icecrown. Then walk in, join with the rest (who may have been still wary about him, but well, an ally is an ally if you're already in the middle of a fight and low on resources), wait til all forces disperse, because they won and the war against Deathwing is over and then... boom stroll over to Galakrond, raise him, conquer the world. Yes, that would have worked, because then everyone was gone, the others would have let down their guard and the armies of the mortals were fighting in Pandaria.

[ArenaDk]

Well, the thing with Kalec is a bit strange, because in the book it happened a bit different and before the actual Cataclysm even happened (but not sure anymore, have not read the whole thing in a long time ^^)
But really, he is unimportant at that time, because the only thing that is important is that Malygos isn't attacking the other flights anymore and the distraction caused by the Nexus War is gone. So until the Cataclysm the other dragons are free to try and stop the Lich King, when he attacks them. If he wants Galakrond before Deathwing rises from Deepholm, he needs to attack them and go for it. So he'd have a war with the dragonflights on his hands. He would win this, but not quickly. If Arthas attacked full force, they'd put up a real fight and it wouldn't just be Alexstrasza there.

Alliance and Horde I strongly disagree that they would not notice if their leaders were converted, especially if you take into account that on the Alliance side half of the palace guards and both the leaders of the Church of the Holy Light were secretly N'zoth's agents. So, no, Arthas could not have Alliance and Horde, unless he fights for it, which is another warfront opened. Would he win? Yes, but not quickly.
Unless he could go for it and take it all over in one fell swoop while everyone is still sleeping from the Nightmare-attack. I do not know how that works if N'zoth already has their souls in his grasp. Had the Scourge attacked during that, maybe it would have been good for N'zoth, because Malfurion and the druids would have been distracted.

So about that attack from the Old God forces in Dragonblight. This attack on the dragons had to take place with the right timing and after all the other battlefields were won. But! it was mainly necessary because Thrall was there and could help the Dragonflights. Had the Lich King won, Thrall would still be leader of the Horde and as such, converted to undeath. No need for Deathwing to divert resources so he could take the united Dragonflights and whatnot, no 'world shaman' ready to interfere, nothing.

Again, two problems for Arthas: 1. Time, because he'd have to fight his way to actual world dominance every step of the way and he would have to achieve it by the time Deathwing beaks out of Deepholm, because as soon as that happens, 2. he is the only target left for Deathwing and N'zoth.
And I disagree on at least Ragnaros, he was firmly under the control of N'zoth. So N'zoth takes the Ancients, (which is kind of a thing) the second Well of Eternity atop Mount Hyjal in a matter of days. N'zoth doesn't have to divert any resources to fight anyone else but the Lich King and can start attacking Dragonblight at once, without the dragonflights putting up a fight (apart from the ones that are already under the Lich King's control), no world shaman, no Dragonsoul to fight him with. Also, N'zoth brings Ragnaros to the battlefield, which does seem kind of a problem for an undead army.

So again, to me it seems more like had the Lich King tried an actual power move after winning at Ice Crown by taking the Alliance and Horde leaders and raising Galakrond, this would have been his undoing. As he would still have been Arthas at that point, he probably would have tried that.
Had he done nothing and simply acted very secretly, gathered power and put his champions into place for maybe a push when the actual fight in the Dragonblight begins, his chances may have been better, but mainly because everyone else could have acted the same way and beaten back Deathwing and N'zoth at every turn like they did when Arthas lost at Icecrown. Then walk in, join with the rest (who may have been still wary about him, but well, an ally is an ally if you're already in the middle of a fight and low on resources), wait til all forces disperse, because they won and the war against Deathwing is over and then... boom stroll over to Galakrond, raise him, conquer the world. Yes, that would have worked, because then everyone was gone, the others would have let down their guard and the armies of the mortals were fighting in Pandaria.

please tell me how arthas gona win against the dragon flights, when he only was able to kill one matute dragon in his life and that needed an army already. Also ......Alextrasza can also raise a undead army any time she wants.

[formerShandalay]

please tell me how arthas gona win against the dragon flights, when he only was able to kill one matute dragon in his life and that needed an army already. Also ......Alextrasza can also raise a undead army any time she wants.

Alex can not raise an undead army, but the Lich King can. What the Lich King has going for him are wars of attrition. He'd have all of his 'champions', the once mortal heroes (remember that up there is a scenario where the Lich King won at Icecrown) plus the Ebon Blade plus the Argent Crusade. Alexstrasza was already getting on only barely against the Scourge in her own domain before. Every dead blue dragon and every dead red dragon that took part in the Nexus War is one dragon more for the Lich King. The Blues were infighting, they would not have joined the others in a fight against the Lich King. So the Lich King winning would be my guess.

On the other hand, if he didn't win against the dragons, that would only reinforce my original point: that he could not walk out into the Dragonblight, raise Galakrond and then win against Deathwing all by himself, had he won at Icecrown.

[ArenaDk]

Alex can not raise an undead army, but the Lich King can. What the Lich King has going for him are wars of attrition. He'd have all of his 'champions', the once mortal heroes (remember that up there is a scenario where the Lich King won at Icecrown) plus the Ebon Blade plus the Argent Crusade. Alexstrasza was already getting on only barely against the Scourge in her own domain before. Every dead blue dragon and every dead red dragon that took part in the Nexus War is one dragon more for the Lich King. The Blues were infighting, they would not have joined the others in a fight against the Lich King. So the Lich King winning would be my guess.

On the other hand, if he didn't win against the dragons, that would only reinforce my original point: that he could not walk out into the Dragonblight, raise Galakrond and then win against Deathwing all by himself, had he won at Icecrown.

you know in the book night of the dragon Krasus explains that red dragons have no problem raising undead and even shows how easy it is?

[Golden Yak]

There's probably gonna be, like, a new Super Scourge now.

Shadow Scourge.

[LarryWithTheWeatherReport]

The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.

[Xetsuo]

The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.

Apparently they are overrated, given what the new Trailer just showed us they are not a threat at all.

[Venziir]

The Scourge wasn't overrated. They are a greater threat to us than the Old Gods and Legion ever will if you don't include Sargeras. It's just Sylvanas is on a whole different level now. She basically cleaved through the entire Scourge Empire, a empire that could had overwhelmed Azeroth if they wanted to like nothing. So if the Scourge was ever overrated, it's that the new Sylvanas made them look overrated.

They didn't really seem to care too much about Sylvanas honestly. The fact that she could just ascend the entire citadel and that Bolvar was just waiting for her was very odd. Well either that or he really underestimated her

[Mehrunes]

There's probably gonna be, like, a new Super Scourge now.

Shadow Scourge.

Iron Scourge, obviously.