Lich King losing was bullshit

[Voidwielder]

As I said in another thread:
We know Sylvanas has been making deals with death entities since at least Legion. We know she started the Fourth War to get people killed, and Ion confirmed that all of those deaths have been empowering her.

What's more, who's to say Bolvar was that strong?
He had no death magic experience beforehand and was kinda just "a paladin" (didn't even get a statue in the Sanctum of Light). Then there is the potential that being a charred husk (via life magic) might not make you a more nimble or more powerful Lich King. The chances of him being level with Arthas & Frostmourne seem quite slim.

So let's examine this again then with all the proper context:
1. We know Sylvanas was powerful enough to fight one on one with Arthas in the Halls of Reflection (yes, she lost but she held her own while we wiped to Marwyn's trash several times)
2. Since then she has been gaining power from multiple sources including the deaths of a world war she started
3. Bolvar doesn't have the necromatic experience (never a death knight), bodily constitution (crispy husk), or weaponry (Frostmourne) of Arthas.
4. Bolvar loses handily.
5. ...People are surprised?

All this (hardly) makes sense to people who play the game religiously and follow and care about the story.

That isn't the majority of the player base.
So much of Blizzards story-telling relies on secondary factors to their own detriment.

[Akta]

It is not that hard to understand that she is gathering power from the death itself

[Mirishka]

1. We know Sylvanas was powerful enough to fight one on one with Arthas in the Halls of Reflection (yes, she lost but she held her own while we wiped to Marwyn's trash several times)

Brings back memories of running HoR, I loved that dungeon. Especially the horror-movie chase at the end, with Arthas just relentlessly stalking us up that path. Good times.

[Villager720]

the lore, and the very cnematic?


summon DK and empower us in the class hall

he is not hot shit

people are mroe mad that he lost like a mog run than that he indeed lost, is that hard to understand?

I mean he was the Lich King, sure. That definitely bestows one a great deal of power, but as I noted below, she fought a stronger Lich King before and held her own for a bit. And then got stronger herself afterwards.

I, for one, knew he was screwed as soon as her voiceover kicked in. /shrug

But sure, he probably should have landed a blow or two if that makes people happy.

[TheRagebear]

OP is on the wrong forums. Trying to convince anyone here that Sylvanas should lose or suffer any difficulty at any time would be like trying to convince ResetEra that women can be sexist too.

Just say Golden Boy Bad and clap.

[javierdsv]

Took from someone at the official forums:

"The Shadowlands are as old as time itself. The denizens native to that land predate the Titans , the Old Gods, the Wild Gods and every living being in the universe. The Arbiter and the Jailor are the most powerful beings in this land beyond the veil (presumably).

And Sylvanas has struck some kind of deal with one of them, or both of them.

As part of this deal, she gets new powers that NO ONE has ever seen before, that only seem to grow as more souls are poured into the Maw.

A power that the Lich King only has the merest hint of and is a stolen power.

Sylvanas is tapped directly into the source of this power.

There will always be death, so this power is only limited by how many die. Therefore, that power is limitless.

This is how Sylvanas became so powerful and was able to easily defeat Bolvar, who wasn’t even as close in power as Arthas was. I don’t know if she is currently the most powerful being on Azeroth, but she is pretty damn close."

[Villager720]

All this (hardly) makes sense to people who play the game religiously and follow and care about the story.

That isn't the majority of the player base.
So much of Blizzards story-telling relies on secondary factors to their own detriment.

So, Blizzard should abandon what they've hinted at and shown previously because the players didn't catch on?
To be clear : I'm not a Sylvanas fan, and I don't love what they've done with her since Legion.
But to say this stuff is coming out of left field just means you aren't looking at the field.

[Voidwielder]

I, for one, knew he was screwed as soon as her voiceover kicked in. /shrug

I knew she would win whatever was ahead in the cinematic the moment she showed up. And I bet many people went ''Oh fuck, here we go...'' when she first appeared in the frame. But it's ridiculous.

[Mirishka]

That's pretty disingenous. I was hinting at the fact that while Genn wasn't trying to kill her, he still had the upper hand and outwitted her. It was an even fight and chances are he would have killed her if he didn't specifically aim for the lantern (at least that's what I gathered from him beating her up). But that's really irrelevant for my argument.

The fact that the fight between her and Genn was more or less even is enough to get my original point across: it's an unbelievable, unexplained (in the game's narrative that is) power spike in a very short amount of time that allows her to go from this to absolutely manhandling Saurfang and the Lich King.

To be fair it probably wouldn't take very long for a being like the Jailer to say 'here, wield my power, do bad shit with it in my service'. The problem is that until now we had no idea who or what gave her said powers. So it just felt like Sylvanas now with 100% more Plot Armor™.

I still hated how the fight with Bolvar played out, mind you - but that comes from being a fan of all the Lich King stuff and my own anticipation of Bolvar becoming relevant again. And that it felt redundant with the Saurfang fight in the sense that its a big, fancy-pants CGI, one-sided asskicking.

- - - Updated - - -

And I bet many people went ''Oh fuck, here we go...'' when she first appeared in the frame. But it's ridiculous.

I did! And I was hoping for an epic fight, which I don't really feel like we got.

[Voidwielder]

So, Blizzard should abandon what they've hinted at and shown previously because the players didn't catch on?
I'm not a Sylvanas fan, and I don't love what they've done with her since Legion. But to say this stuff is coming out of left field just means you can't see the field.

They should have had the Lorthemar dialogue about ''new'' magic in the cinematic itself or during Saurfangs in-game cinematic funeral ceremony.

Establishing it that way would have been a lot more... smarter?! Just go to YT comments. Notice how many people are confused as to why she was able to do what she did. A lot of people. And yes, it's Blizzards own fault for that.

[Nerovar]

Took from someone at the official forums:

"The Shadowlands are as old as time itself. The denizens native to that land predate the Titans , the Old Gods, the Wild Gods and every living being in the universe. The Arbiter and the Jailor are the most powerful beings in this land beyond the veil (presumably).

And Sylvanas has struck some kind of deal with one of them, or both of them.

As part of this deal, she gets new powers that NO ONE has ever seen before, that only seem to grow as more souls are poured into the Maw.

A power that the Lich King only has the merest hint of and is a stolen power.

Sylvanas is tapped directly into the source of this power.

There will always be death, so this power is only limited by how many die. Therefore, that power is limitless.

This is how Sylvanas became so powerful and was able to easily defeat Bolvar, who wasn’t even as close in power as Arthas was. I don’t know if she is currently the most powerful being on Azeroth, but she is pretty damn close."

The problem people mostly have with this turn of events isn't the power level itself (though I think it's at least debatable) but that every crucial factor that lead to her having that power happened off-screen and was invisible to the player. It doesn't feel like she's earned that power just because Ion told us that she made a deal with powerful people. Imagine Thanos just getting all the infinity stones because he's made some kind of deal we didn't even see.

It also throws up different questions like: why didn't she simply kill Anduin and Thrall after she killed Saurfang with a single spell? She certainly has the power to do so (appearantly).

To be fair it probably wouldn't take very long for a being like the Jailer to say 'here, wield my power, do bad shit with it in my service'. The problem is that until now we had no idea who or what gave her said powers. So it just felt like Sylvanas now with 100% more Plot Armor™.

I still hated how the fight with Bolvar played out, mind you - but that comes from being a fan of all the Lich King stuff and my own anticipation of Bolvar becoming relevant again. And that it felt redundant with the Saurfang fight in the sense that its a big, fancy-pants CGI, one-sided asskicking.

I feel the same. Really wanted to see the Lich King become relevant again.

[RoKPaNda]

Bolvar and Arthas were both shitty Lich Kings. Nerzhul was the only one that ever accomplished anything.

At this point it's tradition for the Lk to get done dirty in the lore.

[Azerox]

That trailer was shit and cringeful to watch.
Im starting to get sick of Sylvanas.

[Villager720]

They should have had the Lorthemar dialogue about ''new'' magic in the cinematic itself or during Saurfangs in-game cinematic funeral ceremony.

Establishing it that way would have been a lot more... smarter?! Just go to YT comments. Notice how many people are confused as to why she was able to do what she did. A lot of people. And yes, it's Blizzards own fault for that.

I get what you're saying and agree somewhat. Perhaps Blizzard could have been less subtle with this. But I'm left asking : is it their fault their players can't add?

[Voidwielder]

Also the fact that we know nothing, nothing about her actual agenda and goals (besides the verbose statements about living being bad) and very, very little about her actions off-screen adds to the confusion.

For many these powers are a surprise. They have withheld too much information from us.

[Mirishka]

So, Blizzard should abandon what they've hinted at and shown previously because the players didn't catch on?
To be clear : I'm not a Sylvanas fan, and I don't love what they've done with her since Legion.
But to say this stuff is coming out of left field just means you can't see the field.

You misunderstand. It isn't that people didn't see it, its that people didn't know what 'it' is. She just shows up with hugely increased power levels, dispenses 2 powerful (and popular) characters in the lore with little effort despite kinda getting her ass kicked by Genn not too long ago. No one knows how or why, there's just a vague 'she made a deal with someone! Oooo!' and vague, cryptic stuff like that isn't satisfying storytelling.

Now that we KNOW who the source of her power is (the Jailer in the Maw) and that all the deaths and chaos she has caused have made it/him/whatever more powerful, her recent actions make more sense.

But the game needs to do a much better job of explaining these things. It shouldn't take novels and developers at Blizzcon outright saying 'this guy is why Sylvanas is so powerful now'.

Show us in the damn game.

[Villager720]

The problem people mostly have with this turn of events isn't the power level itself (though I think it's at least debatable) but that every crucial factor that lead to her having that power happened off-screen and was invisible to the player. It doesn't feel like she's earned that power just because Ion told us that she made a deal with powerful people. Imagine Thanos just getting all the infinity stones because he's made some kind of deal we didn't even see.

It also throws up different questions like: why didn't she simply kill Anduin and Thrall after she killed Saurfang with a single spell? She certainly has the power to do so (appearantly).

A legitimate complaint.

[Xalea]

Sylvanas as a strong independent female was never allowed to lose to the tyrranical toxic man.

It’s this, exactly. When I showed this cinematic to some of my friends (including female ones) that’s the first thing they said. Blizz has become ultra political in recent years and this and BfA is a reflection of that. Almost every major character in BfA is female. It’s the #MeToo expansion. This cinematic just seals the deal and is beyond hilarious.

[Voidwielder]

Bolvar and Arthas were both shitty Lich Kings. Nerzhul was the only one that ever accomplished anything.

Many heroes fell to Arthas and he did major damage to the world. We failed to kill him in a fair-and-square fight. Deus ex machina saved us.

[Lane]

Again, Sylvanas didn't seem flustered until Saurfang actually got a hit in, she didn't seem to be taking the fight with Bolvar any more seriously and STILL utterly curb-stomped him, and Bolvar, for his credit, also seemed to be pretty chill (no pun intended) throughout the whole fight as well. I'm not really sure what he could have done differently.

I've theorized since Legion that Bolvar's been preparing for this (based on the DK class hall quests). The only way I accept that cinematic is if he knew she was coming, that he'd stand no chance against her, and would just do his best to delay the inevitable. The fact that his Four Horsemen weren't there was not lost on me and it could be because he sent them away so they wouldn't die in vain and fight another day. Hopefully there's something in game that explains what happened.

I do still feel from an entertainment standpoint it wasn't a good fight. I don't mind that Bolvar lost, but they could have choreographed that scene much better.