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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    That's not how reality works.

    If you say that A is A very aggressively and accuse anyone saying otherwise as an apologist/fanboy, but new information comes out that A is actually B, you can't fall back on "Well, aren't A and B very similar? We should all be better communicators. :^)"

    When people talk about "an AP grind," it's inferred that they're referring to the mechanics of the actual AP grind we got across the last two expansions - a series of tasks you can do to get currency that has no cap or end tail. A grind that literally has no completion and exponentially raises with each new rank/iteration.

    Meanwhile, a series of currencies that have a finite cap fits with entire other sections of content in the game's history, such as Badges of Valor. Semantically, if you said "Anima is just Valor!" then you'd probably have the same "fanboys" agreeing, because it is.

    But the semantics are totally different and are dishonest. AP is maligned for a very specific reason (infinite, and thus pressuring for min/maxers, exponential ), not because you do things in the game for it. Because the nature of a modern MMO even before WoW is...doing things in the game world for power or prestige/cosmetic rewards. So pretty much the only thing they have in common is "I need to play the game to get the thing," which is kind of the nature of games.

    Now if you were to say "Anima could be a problem if it has too high of a cap or if activities aren't rewarding enough," similar to the examples of other things they've messed up like @Sorotia above, then that would be something. And a perfectly valid concern to be addressed, so no "fanboying" there.
    But it doesn't have a cap. Your power progression has a softcap, but you can still collect more anima and spend it on other stuff (cosmetics).
    it is only as different as it is similar imo. AP grind was different for many different people. Ask a top 50 guild what AP grind was for them, and then ask me who refused to go out of my way and farm it, so for me, it wasn't even a grind. And then there are all sorts of people in between. So to come out and state something like this as a blanket for everyone is just misleading.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMccrum View Post
    You guys might not want to admit it. You guys might not want to believe it.

    But, give it 4-5 months of updates here and elsewhere and you'll realise Anima is just Azerite.

    They cannot make the game without this system now. Apexis, Artifact Power, Azerite...and now Anima.

    Obviously, they don't want you to know Anima is just Azerite just yet. They'll always say that it isn't no matter how similar it is - but it is.

    They gave you the bait, now you're going to see the switch.

    -

    Oh, and that tower in the middle of the Maw. It's literally like one of those Hearthstone repeatable adventures and a diablo rift...but in WoW. Hearthstone used to make real content and real bosses before they started to make those. It's the repeatable-island content of this expansion. Don't let Blizzard keep making those or you might find yourself with no handcrafted dungeons at all come next expansion.

    Uh....and, the tower in the middle of the maw....where all souls are going.....infinitely?

    and anima is what again? the power from SOULS? Join the dots.


    1. Anima is soul energy all beings possess when they die.
    2. people like Arthas have a ton of anima
    3. higher level mobs in the tower are going to have more anima.
    4. That tower is an infinite grinding tower where you'll be grinding anima from mobs.
    /end

    LOL
    Well maybe, if they are lying. So let's wait I guess?!?

  3. #103
    OP here.

    Ion did say that Anima is going to be like Valor.
    But it isn't like Valor.
    The reason it isn't like Valor is because Valor had a weekly hard-cap. Anima grinding is uncapped, Anima usage is weekly hard-capped.

    What does that mean?
    You can only gain so much power from it every week - It's a timegate.
    You can infinitely grind it and use Anima to buy items which don't affect power.

    Instead of letting people grind infinitely, and then needing to bump up the power levels to the nth % to entirely negate the hard work those players invested as a catch up mechanic, they're instead just putting a hard-cap on the power that can be gained weekly. It's like a badge system. With a badge system like this, you need accompanying, different ways to gain power.


    You can continue endlessly obtaining anima. But you will only be able to use a small amount of that anima every week, so it's timegated. This allows players to effectively always have anima in reserve for future weeks, but not be able to use that anima on anything asides from cosmetics or things that do not result in a direct gain of power.

    TL;DR
    Unlike AP you'll not be able to gain endless Anima or ever be on an endless Anima grind, instead, you'll simply have no reason to ever log-in more than once per week if you care about progression. because other than your weekly anima hand-ins, there is no point to grinding more Anima. Let's hope there are other additional systems in-place away from this valor-like system.

    I'm curious how this works for players that aren't hitting their weekly Anima usage and what catch-up mechanics are actually in-place. (Do weekly quests accumulate? like story quests) but basically, it's not an endless grind. It's a timegate behind anima instead.
    Last edited by JohnnyMccrum; 2019-11-02 at 04:32 PM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    This game has been nothing but endless grinds since it has existed.

    Are you all blind and crazy?
    The issue is... Grind back in TBC, Vanilla and part of WLK felt rewarding. Getting that craftable epic felt... epic. Grinding that rep giving you super rare and unique mount, felt amazing. Grinding that raid gave you gear probably lasting you until the next expac (vanilla/TBC). Furthermore, nobody felt compelled or forced to grind, you ground because you wanted to, not because otherwise everybody will leave you behind. Taking a day or a week off didn't feel like a problem, because the progression was so much better paced. Nowadays a day outside WoW sets you back for a week.

    tl;dr; Back in the day grinding was a way to enjoy the content, nowadays grinding IS the content.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochana View Post
    Could be, but they literally stated there would be no "AP grind" in Shadowlands.

    AP existing without the grind would be fine.
    Learn to speak "Legaleaze". It's kinda like how Bethesda says "Creation club isn't paid mods", They're - of course - paid mods, but they get away from that because they're referring to the Steam attempt at "Paid mods" when they say that.

    Is it going to be an "AP Grind?" of course it's not, because it's going to be its OWN kind of grind! :P Please, it's going to be a grind of some kind - it's It's Blizzard, It's an MMO, it's WoW - it's ALL about what kind of grind will it be!

  6. #106
    i also keeping an open eye to both: anima concept and „there will be no grind“. will become interessting...

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMccrum View Post
    Trust me...

    Believe me on this one...
    Sure dude. So it's your word Vs. Blizzards. I will *beLIeVe* blizzard for now

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkj View Post
    the problem with AP is that it’s an endless grind. as long as there’s reasonable weekly caps and a reasonable maximum level it’ll be ok. just do you trust blizzard to do that?

    the tower of the damned is gonna get old real fast. hopefully they update it frequently, but I suspect they will. they’re pretty good about adding dungeon content throughout expansions and this seems similar.
    They already said in an interview that you can get your cap fairly easily by doing pretty much any content you want and there will also be catch-up mechanics in place.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    The issue is... Grind back in TBC, Vanilla and part of WLK felt rewarding. Getting that craftable epic felt... epic. Grinding that rep giving you super rare and unique mount, felt amazing. Grinding that raid gave you gear probably lasting you until the next expac (vanilla/TBC). Furthermore, nobody felt compelled or forced to grind, you ground because you wanted to, not because otherwise everybody will leave you behind. Taking a day or a week off didn't feel like a problem, because the progression was so much better paced. Nowadays a day outside WoW sets you back for a week.

    tl;dr; Back in the day grinding was a way to enjoy the content, nowadays grinding IS the content.
    It’s still there. It’s all a choice.

    What changed was the amount of time people have to play games

    What changed is how people think and view their time.

    What changed the most was us.

    That’s what has changed the game to what it is now.

    A faster paced game with still some grinds just not always ones everyone will like.

    I do miss better professions items that last, I do miss the slower pace as well.

    I’m just stating the grind is still there just not as paced like before because the player base has changed from children with lots of time to adults with less time.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I personally hated legendaries and the valor cap in the last patch of mop. I agree that before then, when you could buy gear with valor, it was fine. But 5.3 already included the features that everyone still hates today, namely that it took a massive amount of time in easy content to get the gear you needed for the content you were interested in. I remember tanking dungeons in 5.3 for valor where I would literally run to the boss and aoe down every add while killing the boss solo (I also remember having to make sure that I stayed in combat so that I wouldn’t get kicked by the other 4 people in my group lol). And every time you leveled an alt you were cursed to spend an eternity in LFR.

    Of course, as I’ve said earlier, these bad systems all exist because of LFR. When you create a form of content with no challenge, you have to add time gates and grinds so that people stay invested. And until bfa, most of these systems were intertwined with LFR in order to decrease queue times.
    I remember capping my valor with pet battles. I didn't hate it. in 5.3 you could cap valor easiest with scenarios if I remember correctly. Which was probably equally easy but at least there was a choice. i personally like to be OP in starter dungeons, I mean challenge modes with optimized geared people? That was fun. What is the point of gear if you can't enjoy it's opness? Timewalking was fun as well with twink gear. I miss those days.

  11. #111
    OP here.

    Ion did say that Anima is going to be like Valor.
    But it isn't like Valor.
    The reason it isn't like Valor is because Valor had a weekly hard-cap. Anima grinding is uncapped, Anima usage is weekly hard-capped.

    What does that mean?

    You can only gain so much power from it every week - It's a timegate.
    You can infinitely grind it and use Anima to buy items which don't affect power.

    Instead of letting people grind infinitely, and then needing to bump up the power levels to the nth % to entirely negate the hard work those players invested as a catch up mechanic, they're instead just putting a hard-cap on the power that can be gained weekly.


    You can continue endlessly obtaining anima. But you will only be able to use a small amount of that anima every week, so it's timegated. This allows players to effectively always have anima in reserve for future weeks, but not be able to use that anima on anything asides from cosmetics or things that do not result in a direct gain of power.

    TL;DR


    like Azerite, You gain anima (valor points) from doing anything and can grind an infinite amount every week

    Unlike Azerite, You can only spend 1000 per week on power-increasing items - additional points you grind are spent on mounts or other cosmetics.

    You can have 4000 anima points and not need to log in for 4 weeks because your anima progression is timegated.

    Unless there are other badge/progression systems this encourages "anima-logging"

    you'll simply have no reason to ever log-in more than once per week if you care about progression. because other than your weekly anima hand-ins, there is no point to grinding more Anima. Let's hope there are other additional systems in-place away from this valor-like system.

    I'm curious how this works for players that aren't hitting their weekly Anima usage and what catch-up mechanics are actually in-place. (Do weekly quests accumulate? like story quests) but basically, it's not an endless grind. It's a timegate behind anima instead.
    Last edited by JohnnyMccrum; 2019-11-02 at 04:44 PM.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyMccrum View Post
    You guys might not want to admit it. You guys might not want to believe it.

    But, give it 4-5 months of updates here and elsewhere and you'll realise Anima is just Azerite.

    They cannot make the game without this system now. Apexis, Artifact Power, Azerite...and now Anima.

    Obviously, they don't want you to know Anima is just Azerite just yet. They'll always say that it isn't no matter how similar it is - but it is.

    They gave you the bait, now you're going to see the switch.

    -

    Oh, and that tower in the middle of the Maw. It's literally like one of those Hearthstone repeatable adventures and a diablo rift...but in WoW. Hearthstone used to make real content and real bosses before they started to make those. It's the repeatable-island content of this expansion. Don't let Blizzard keep making those or you might find yourself with no handcrafted dungeons at all come next expansion.

    Uh....and, the tower in the middle of the maw....where all souls are going.....infinitely?

    and anima is what again? the power from SOULS? Join the dots.


    1. Anima is soul energy all beings possess when they die.
    2. people like Arthas have a ton of anima
    3. higher level mobs in the tower are going to have more anima.
    4. That tower is an infinite grinding tower where you'll be grinding anima from mobs.
    /end

    LOL
    So you're comparing Apexis Crystals with AP now? Dude you have no idea what you're talking about.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Teekey View Post
    Because people can't have their own perspective. If you talk about AP, you can only refer to it how you want it to be referred to. Got it.
    My claim there is because it obfuscates the point. If there's very clear, very rigid, and very significant differences between one thing and another, you're within your right to be called out on it respectfully.

    It works backwards. Imagine someone said "Artifact Power is just the new Badges of Justice." You'd be well within your right to say to that person "What the fuck are you talking about? Badges were a currency I could earn to buy an item that I have forever. Artifact Power never ends, directly locks out certain core abilities, is tied to an item that I'm renting until the following expansion, and exponentially raises each tier so I am time-gated until the next knowledge level."

    They can have their "own perspective" to say AP = Badges, but a closer examination shows it's pretty fucking dumb. Sometimes a poor comparison is a poor comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    But it doesn't have a cap. Your power progression has a softcap, but you can still collect more anima and spend it on other stuff (cosmetics).
    it is only as different as it is similar imo. AP grind was different for many different people. Ask a top 50 guild what AP grind was for them, and then ask me who refused to go out of my way and farm it, so for me, it wasn't even a grind. And then there are all sorts of people in between. So to come out and state something like this as a blanket for everyone is just misleading.
    But cosmetics have always been a significant investment to get in terms of completion. Any given expansion, it takes significantly more investment to get every new mount, toy, pet, whatever than it does to get to the hypothetical cap for player power for whatever content you have access to.

    That's putting aside that cosmetics are technically optional, although I know for many it's why they play, so I'll grant you that one. But there's one aspect that still separates it from the AP comparison from the infinite-cosmetic perspective: if Anima is a currency you can buy cosmetics using, that means you can pick and choose exactly where you place the infinite currency. AP is a single bar that fills that blocks out certain things on the way (or still has a semi-linear path like Artifacts).

    So even then, you can forego certain rewards you don't like if it's a currency system in favor of a direct bar fill-up.

    The better comparison is Ancient Mana in Suramar, which was reasonable, or Service Medals, which were not. The sources and numbers are what are important there.

  14. #114
    They were clear that we wont have social/peer pressure to grind Anima or Legendaries..
    So I dont care if its AP/Azerite or not - The problems are gone.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by This One Time At Bandcamp View Post
    They were clear that we wont have social/peer pressure to grind Anima or Legendaries..
    My DOUBT (X) on what they say goes towards the legendaries, since until they say otherwise, it still is a series of tasks in the Tower towards getting crafting supplies towards making legendaries that will be pressuring. Unless there's a cap on those supplies AS WELL, legendaries will be a long-game that pressures people just like the old AP.

    If there is a cap, that kinda invalidates a lot of the point of the endless dungeon, since the entire idea is that you get more supplies as you get higher. Unless there's big cosmetic rewards, which I'm sure there will be, there's not a lot of reason to go particularly high if there's a cap on resources towards crafting legendaries.

    But that's a whole other topic. Just pointing out that Anima seems pretty benign unless the cap is absurd, but people are ignoring the legendary crafting, which could have a similar problem to Artifact Power.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    The issue is... Grind back in TBC, Vanilla and part of WLK felt rewarding.
    No, it didn't. There was nothing there that made it unique.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    Getting that craftable epic felt... epic
    no.

    In fact, I can't really think of a BC craftable epic at all off the top of my head - let alone one that "felt epic". Only epic item I remember was that bag in shattrath you could by late in the expansion. Hell, I was an Engineer and got that flying gyrocopter and even THAT wasn't "epic" feeling. Just "cool".

    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    . Grinding that rep giving you super rare and unique mount, felt amazing.
    That grind hasn't changed in over a decade

    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    Grinding that raid gave you gear probably lasting you until the next expac (vanilla/TBC).
    That hasn't changed since ever

    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    Furthermore, nobody felt compelled or forced to grind, you ground because you wanted to, not because otherwise everybody will leave you behind.
    You're talking about the expansion notoriously known for poaching players due to attunements and troubles leveling up players, right?

    You're also talking about the expansion where PVP arena was introduced, and everybody ran to to avoid the regular grind because of "Welfare epics", right?

    EDIT: I only noticed now you're talking also about Vanilla and Wrath. Wrath I'll give you a bit more credit, but Vanilla!? Smegging Nature Resist gear!? Aqual Quintessence rep farming!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    Taking a day or a week off didn't feel like a problem, because the progression was so much better paced.
    You weren't there for that Vashj kill? Well, spit, guess you're not going with us to Mount Hyjal then!

    Also, grinding shadow resist gear says "hello"?

    Also, that was the expansion that introduced Daily Quests... it's arguably the expansion that INTRODUCED the idea of falling behind if you don't play everyday! >_<

    Quote Originally Posted by Huggykaze View Post
    tl;dr; Back in the day grinding was a way to enjoy the content, nowadays grinding IS the content.
    tl;dr; No, it didn't. It was a boring ass grind. Rose colored goggles, and all that.
    Last edited by mvaliz; 2019-11-02 at 04:43 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by TigTone View Post
    It’s still there. It’s all a choice.

    What changed was the amount of time people have to play games

    What changed is how people think and view their time.

    What changed the most was us.

    That’s what has changed the game to what it is now.

    A faster paced game with still some grinds just not always ones everyone will like.

    I do miss better professions items that last, I do miss the slower pace as well.

    I’m just stating the grind is still there just not as paced like before because the player base has changed from children with lots of time to adults with less time.
    It doesn't matter if it's a choice if it doesn't feel like one because of the consequences being too harsh.

    The success of Classic disproves your statement. It wasn't us who changed, I have less time, but I still enjoyed Classic thoroughly.

    Because the problem is the fast pacing. It makes you run out of content too fast, and contrary to fast paced games, you can't update an MMO every 2-3 weeks with a new champion, hero or a premium.

    Yes, most of the adults with little time play the super slow-paced Classic...

  18. #118
    no "AP grind" in Shadowlands.
    Be feared, or be fuel

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Scenarios were imo the worst content they’ve ever released. Horrendously easy but slow and pointless. To be fair I never did islands this expansion tough.
    Islands are worse. Imagine scenarios without the explicit finish line of how much Valor you need and without a story context.

  20. #120
    Literally in the same presentation they said there's no AP to grind.

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