Shadowlands: Why So Mad?

[Skroe]

A lot of people have. It's silly to say the game isn't at fault, of course it is - if the developers and their bosses had made better choices, they wouldn't have hemorraghed so many players.

That said, it sounds like you and a lot of people will have tons of fun playing the game. Awesome! If you can do so, if the alternatives on the market offer less value for the investment, please have fun. But it's not my fault I won't be, or due to some unwillingness to embrace change. It's just a calculation.

The problem - and it's in my view the oldest problem in WoW - is that there are players who want WoW to be everything _they_ want in it, but what those things are is wildly different.

I'll explain what I mean.

I've played and raided every expansion + vanilla and did raiding progression through it all. All fairly competitive in the US scene and all since early TBC in exactly one guild (Tyranny). So I've cleared every instance, gotten every mount, did most of the bosses pre-nerf or pre-trivializing nerf. Reliably we finish between 50-85 and have since 2007. In Vanilla, I did most (but not all of Nax).

Raiding is the only reason I play (well, raiding, and the guild). And I've had the privlege of raiding with hundreds of players in Tyranny over the year and seeing the game get harder and (generally) more complex, and us have to recruit new generations of raiders and modernize older ones, in order to meet that complexity. But there are fundamentally different "raiding" models. I will attempt to band them.

There is the Vanilla model... which was poorly though out and fairly easily up until Nax, provided you "understood" the game which most people didn't at the time.

There was the TBC model that was evolutionary the course of it... one foot in the Vanilla model, and by the end of Sunwell, pressaging the comp-centric, CD centric, detailed-strat centric model that would become dominant in later years.

The Wrath model was an evolution of what we saw in TBC, and we saw the development of "Heroic" and "Hard modes". What was "right" and what was "wrong" started to be further figured out, and fights, like in Sunwell, started to require fairly detailed strats.

The Cata model, with the breakdown of 10/25 man was a clean slate. And class abilities with the new talent panel were all over place. I like to think of it as a prototype though, because soon after came the...

MoP Model! In my view, MoP had the best gameplay, best raid model. The best balance between fight design, minimax requirement, strat complexity, raid CDs. It was the best "raiding" expansion.

Then there is the WoD->Legion->BFA model. This is a departure from the MoP model brought upon by successful class pruning, then class changes, and also a change in raiders priorities. Complex, strat centric "execution" fights that require more than throughput become rarer. Fights become more "parse friendly", coinciding with the increasing emphasis of that within the raiding community. Most fights now are chiefly defined by the ability to do a fairly simple strat, have properly organized CDs, but execute whatever the fight requires while keeping extremely high throughput in order to keep the raid alive / hit hard damage checks. Most fights become the "ultimate test of DPS, tanking and healing".

I don't mind the current model... though I think it has handcuffed the kids of fights they do. I prefer the MoP model. I think it has the smoothest class design, and fights were built to make the most of the classes' depth of abilities. The thing is, if they reverted to the MoP model for raiding, many raiders would hate it. Truly hate it. They'd find it (A) boring or (B) frustrating. The gameplay has shifted from problem solving towards metered performance. AEP is a great example of that. Almost every "hard" aspect of it on Mythic, from first through last boss is "can your raid pump enough" (there are certainly "strat-ish" things to do to make every fight easier, but few are essential).

So should I throw my hands up and just say "fuck it?". No. I've made my piece with it. I loved MoP raiding. I like current raiding. In a place like Uldir, I've endured raiding, knowing that a shit tier happens here and there.

And that's my problem with the player who quit. I see it as highly inflexible. I play a BM hunter. Two of my current core BiS Azerite pieces are from the Azerite vendor - the helm and the shoulders. I had to get them in BoD, and then again now. And because I made some REALLY fucking wrong decisions with my chalk (sharded azerite in slang), I did Mythic Azshara with only the heroic ilvl version of them (I got mythic helm after... and shoulders will be in late December).

So I have lived how much the Azerite system sucks. But I deal with it. It is not a game breaker. Annoying? Oh yeah. But AEP was pretty great. Essences are pretty cool. Nazjatar and Mechagon were pretty slick. So the Azerite thing sucks for me now... maybe it won't suck next tier. And as for next expac, with the absence of tier gear... we don't even know what, if anything, the plan is for where Azerite is now. I doubt it's Azerite 2.0. But I also doubt they are "featureless" pieces with just stats on them. It's likely Blizzard doesn't even know yet.


And that's the core of my argument. I don't understand why anyone is discussing WoW - now in it's 15th year - in absolutionist terms. For any aspect of it. Have we not been around this block before? Do we not accept at this point That every expac has brilliant bits and incredible turds? Come back six expacs from now, it will be the exact same thing. They will try some stuff, and some of it will blow ass, and everyone will lament it isn't like their favorite Expac ever, World of Warcraft: Adventures on Lizard Island, which came after Shadowlands.

The funny part is, this probably has me coming off as some kind of ridiculous Blizzard fanboy. If you could Ask my guild, they'd tell you... I'm brutal at Blizzard. And you can see here how I felt about Ion Hazzikostas for Mythic Mekkatorque when we have a deaf raider on our roster (who so happens to be one of our best players). I think their stunningly incompetent, slow to action, and incredibly out of touch about the problems of their game. Chances are, I'll feel that way next expac too.

But I accept WoW for what it is. It's a Game that on it's best day is an 8.2/10 game, and on its worst day is a 6.5/10 game. It's never complete trash. But it is incapable of being anywhere close to Game of the Year. I just wish more players took a relaxed view about the game as a whole.

[Kyphael]

Then vote with your wallet. Don't like it because there isn't enough hype features that will wreck the game more? Quit. Continue to quit until the game is what you want it to be.

Still thinking about it but looking likely I will.

[Lei]

Wow wouldn't need NEW things all the time if there were things to ITERATE on. Good things, not like the mission table from freaking WoD for example. Innovate, iterate, polish.

I don't want new systems all the time. Throwaway, one expansion features even less. I wish for global mmo game genre innovation. Do something with quests, make players be able to pick paths, that determines your story outcome or.. or how mounts work (Archeage unchained style for example?, or work on mount equipment to be more immersive, trainable mounts???). There's so much area that could be just better or more diverse, modern, cooler.

[Flurryfang]

Im not sure if the right word is "mad".

I think alot of people are getting a bit tired of WoW and wanted a good reason to come back, and Blizzard did not really give them that.

Saying that they will overall improve the game is good, but its not really something that pulls people back. Where is the thing, that makes people cheer, makes them excited for Shadowlands and make them count down the days for expansion launch? Like, BFA is not a bad game and a better BFA is great, but that is it....Its not great, its not bad, its just meh.

Many elements of the poll could have given me that "ohh god, i CAN'T WAIT FOR THAT!", but it just was not there. 90% of Shadowlands seems like patch updates, not something to carry an entire expansion.

[Zaktar]

But I accept WoW for what it is. It's a Game that on it's best day is an 8.2/10 game, and on its worst day is a 6.5/10 game. It's never complete trash. But it is incapable of being anywhere close to Game of the Year. I just wish more players took a relaxed view about the game as a whole.

At least half of the problem is that sustaining a game like this for as long as they have was a tall order in the first place, not least for the reason you lay out in your first paragraph: the game has always meant different things to different people. Trying to please this many people at once is like being the centerpiece of the most stressful [inappropriate analogy redacted] imaginable. As you're pointing out with the piece of the game which seems like you connected with best, the game had to evolve over time. They had to make new choices to keep their game relevant, and it is inevitable that they would make mistakes along the way.

It just seems like you're frustrated with those of us who are choosing to walk away from the game, and saying we're not doing enough to embrace change. Well change happens whether I embrace it or not. Maybe the change is that I play a new iteration of WoW, maybe the change is that I play a new game. At present, it looks like a new game is on the horizon.

Obviously some part of WoW still connects to me, or I wouldn't be here whining about how the game isn't what I want. I remember being hooked the first time I stood over my friend's shoulder and watched him play Orcs and Humans, Warcraft got me young, like a cigarette company or the catholic church. Maybe more information will come down the pipeline to convince me to part with my hard won dollars for yet another adventure in this world, but a few times now I felt like I wasted my money, and I might be a slow learner but...

[Kallor]

I expected an Old World revamp. Those 50 levels are still gonna be boring as hell to level up through the same content as always (minus the first 10).

[Casperite]

No features that are worth to be called features. Covenants are reputations plus Azerite essences, Torghast is Island Expeditions in a Mage Tower style. Besides that there's nothing worth to be called a feature.

(I like craftable legendaries and more customization but that's not worth to be called an expansion feature)

I believe at this point nothing would be worthy of the term feature to you. Is new class or race the only thing you'd consider a new feature?

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Oh, great, they're giving me back what they have taken. What an amazing "feature"! I am so happy!

Being negative about getting what you want...amazing.

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They didn't really share much which is suspect at the least.

Tower feature seems fun and inspired from slay the spire.

No mention of pvp changes
No mention of mythic+ changes
No mention of raid changes

Is this really just a covenant only patch?

Yes, just a "patch" with 10 levels, 5 zones, 8 dungeons, revamped leveling, new end game systems, and a raid. Wtf does it take to make some of you content? I swear, the negativity here is reaching new lows.

[Kharadin]

So yeah. People are mad. Not everyone mind you, only about 50%. I hear it in basically every thread here, someone going off about how Shadowlands is a "filler expansion," how the "cycle is broken," or outright making "I quit" posts.

I know we've all been there in the past with expansions, most of us that was us 2 years ago. Though I'm curious for some data on why people are mad. Is it just a shotgun of issues or is there one specific thing people are mad about most of all? So I've trolled a few threads, gathered up some complaints I've seen leveled, and put them in a poll!

You only get one answer though because I want to see why you're the most mad. What one thing is so egregious that you're willing to unsubscribe for two years? Or at the very least grumble about it until 9.1 and then come back to whack the Sylvanas Loot Pinata.

Welcome to MMO-C, the vocal minority.

[Yunaqt]

Zero mad, only hype.

Really like what I saw and excited AF to get in there.

I love roguelike games so the tower sounds especially fun to jam.

[The Emperor]

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Being negative about getting what you want...amazing.

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You're having a hard time with reading comprehension apparently, let me break it down for you, I don't think unpruning is bad. I think the fact that this miniscule zero-effort decision on part of the developers is being paraded as the feauture of the expansion. Do you get it now or is that too complex to your understanding as well?

[Wickedtongue]

It looks like utter crap. And I am putting it nicely. It is even more of a filler expac than BFA. It is quite obvious they have no idea what they are doing and don't have any plans for anything. Just making stuff up as they go along. Pretty sure they still don't know what abilities are coming back and how to fix classes.

[ReleaseDay]

Mostly level squish, i hate everything about it.

[pinelakias]

The ones who are mad about "no big features", they def. dont have ANY idea about game development. Seriously, none whatsoever. Just the new Tower will probably take as much time to develop as the islands and the warfronts together.
Goddamn Blizzard, I used to hate you in BfA, now I have to "hate you less" and start hating your haters more. I need time to work, please!

[Kalarm]

I'm mostly skeptical. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt until we see the beta and how things are going to change. There is probably some stuff we don't realize the importance of yet.

Overall tho... I does feel rather bland. I was blown away at first by the new zones and then looking at them more, I'm realizing how similar they are to previous zones. The covenant system doesn't inspire me that much. I'm not talking about min-maxing to insane level but the fact that you get such a big choice that will define which new abilities you get, which armor you get, which perks you get... That kinda scares me. It's going back to vanilla level of when you chose your spec but now you're making a big choice for a few new abilities that might not change gameplay at all, a cool transmog (hopefully) and some perks... Specs in vanilla played fairly differently and geared very differently in some cases. Some people did have more than 1 character of the same class but in a different spec because back then it could be easier this way. Now you find yourself with a new choice that locks you into a lot of things, but for perhaps minimal differences between each.

Then there is the lack of focus on the class/spec changes. It almost felt like specs wouldn't change all that much apart from having stuff we had a few expansions ago. Will shadow priests get the rework they said they would do but didn't and said "It needs to wait for an expansion"? Will enh sham get it? Will marksmanship stay like it is but with kill shot? We don't know, we know almost nothing... I know I am not going to stay for a long time if enh and MM stay like this.

[trapmaster]

It's a HALF ASSED XPAC again.... probably 1/4 of it and i do not think that's worth 40 dollars for it... It doesn't really convinced me enough to return for new xpac. It's probably time to skip that xpac. They need to serious beef up something...

[Dystemper]

It's a HALF ASSED XPAC again.... probably 1/4 of it and i do not think that's worth 40 dollars for it... It doesn't really convinced me enough to return for new xpac. It's probably time to skip that xpac. They need to serious beef up something...

I fully expect it to fail harder than BFA . There is no passion for WOW at Blizzard any more

[Yamuri]

yay we are starting the "this expansion will kill WoW" train again. Everyone hop on.

[CostinR]

People have complained about every expansion since the dawn of World of Warcraft. They did it for TBC, They did it for Wrath and they will continue doing it. Because at any point you change a formula for a game like this there will always be a crowd of people who will dislike it: People disliked Blood Elves in Draenei in BC, they disliked Paladins for horde.

I think one of the more prominent issues right now is that since WoD and Legion Blizzard has taken the game in a direction a significant number of people do genuinely dislike, and what people want is the good ol' days that they enjoyed back then. This is one of the big reasons Classic is so popular.

World of Warcraft is also a game that requires a certain degree of dedication to play. Even a casual player who is simply there to do LFR and just see the story content puts in quite a bit of time to be able to reach the end game...as for the hardcore mythic raider it ranges between a part-time job for which you have to take vacation time when new content is released, as people do for world first races, or a full time job depending on what is required of us.

So with a tittle like that come very high expectations, especially in consideration of the fact that Blizzard has a embraced a model for their game where they are trying to give content for all types of players: The Story Centric casuals, the PvP-ers, the raiders and so on, and then you account the fact they are also trying to give content for people on all skill levels instead of just pleasing on demographic.

Blizzard has simply failed to meet those expectations for a long time as I've seen it. The reason people care is because there's simply no alternative for World of Warcraft in terms of what it offers: A stable steady game that you can play with a large group of people in an organized fashion on a constant basis and have a lot of fun doing so.

The closest I've seen as alternatives are Wildstar, which crashed and burned because of bugs, bad design, shit performance and other issues, and Final Fantasy.

[therealbowser]

lol dont compare DEMON HUNTERS to tinkers... demon hunter is warcraft lore, tinkers is something you gnomes made up an ilussion

Uh, what? Like, I don't even know how to respond to this. You clearly didn't play Warcraft III, and I have no idea what an 'ilussion' is.