There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Electryon]

Here's a clue for all you people who always worry about some skill or choice being the "best" at any given time (which is an impossible problem to remedy regardless). The vast, VAST majority of players don't give a shit about bleeding-edge mix-maxing. They choose what they want because they like it and it's fun.

[Kathranis]

You gotta think of all these things and make a choice...

Your whole post boils down to this one statement.

It is a meaningful choice because it's a difficult choice to make.

It's supposed to be like basically choosing a secondary class. It should arguably be the second most important choice you make in the game after which class you want to play.

[SynDethroc]

The choice is whether you care about Min Maxxing or having fun with abilities you enjoy.

EXACTLY!! A lot of you people are talking like you're applying to join Method. Loosen up and pick whichever Covenant you think is cool... Have fun...

[Kaamos]

Wouldn't it be possible to keep the covenants a purely narrative/cosmetic choice and deliver those abilities with the soulbinds, which would in that case not be tied to specific covenants? From what we heard so far, we get to know them all, so independent of our choice, all of them will have us in quite high regards.

But to be frank, i dont give a shit about the min/max aspect, I raid heroic with a tad of mythic in a rather casual guild.

[Dacu]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a system that absolutely cannot be mix/maxed. I'll wait. Anything that is created that does dmg, healing, or provides utility can and will be min/maxed. Less so for the utility abilities (which some of the choices are), because they will be based on fights/situations. Of course none of this actually matters unless you're pushing top world kills, that 0.5% more dmg from a different new ability isn't going to help your guild not die to fire.

[roahn the warlock]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

You're missing that 90% of players aren't going to care if their spell is 1% better.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly if blizzard banned the use of Raider.io and all that bullshit tomorrow this would be a better game.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to hear your suggestion for a system that absolutely cannot be mix/maxed. I'll wait. Anything that is created that does dmg, healing, or provides utility can and will be min/maxed. Less so for the utility abilities (which some of the choices are), because they will be based on fights/situations. Of course none of this actually matters unless you're pushing top world kills, that 0.5% more dmg from a different new ability isn't going to help your guild not die to fire.

The only real solution is to ban recount and all simming. Get rid of Raider.io, and all that other crap. Make requiring it bannable. Problem solved. FFxiv has none of this, and raiding is fine.

[Electryon]

What you'll inevitably see in this debate is a bunch of people referencing the world's top guilds (in this case Limit and Method) and saying since they will always use even a .1% damage boost, it makes Covenant choices meaningless. Because millions of people should absolutely base the next two years of their time playing the game based on what the 50 best PvE players in the fucking world are doing. Which is sort of like saying it's pointless to make hamburgers for your kid tonight because, somewhere in England, Gordon Ramsey is cooking someone a $150 porterhouse.

[Elestia]

I don't know if it was confirmed but I am afraid each Covenant will offer 1 transmog set that is shared across all armor types. At least that's the vibe I got from it.

The media package demo is labelled 'plate' and depicts four plate armor sets, one for each covenant.

Yes, there's going to be 16 sets. And yes, you probably don't want to overlap unless we have assurances of being able to change loyalties.


This would also be the heavily implied "why" unique gear will be on hold until the second raid.

[Dacu]

You're missing that 90% of players aren't going to care if their spell is 1% better.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly if blizzard banned the use of Raider.io and all that bullshit tomorrow this would be a better game.

- - - Updated - - -



The only real solution is to ban recount and all simming. Get rid of Raider.io, and all that other crap. Make requiring it bannable. Problem solved. FFxiv has none of this, and raiding is fine.

That really doesn't fix anything though, people could just as easily stop being so hellbent on min/maxing. imo, banning those resources would be horrible for WoW, a lot of people find a specific enjoyment from getting the best out of their character. Killing the things that make useful theorycrafting possible is bad new bears.

[brt2pp]

In short, the covenants seem like a headache to choose. You gotta choose one, and do the plus and minus of those:

1: Covenant abilities you prefer in day to day (both the standard ones and the class one).
2: Covenant abilities you prefer when raiding (or PVPing or WTV your main end-game activity is/will be).
3: Transmogs.
4: Lore wise which fits the most with you... That is not for everyone I admit. I just don't see my enh sham joining the necrolord or venthyr.
5: Other perks, mounts, etc.

In short, the CLASSES seem like a headache to choose. You gotta choose one, and do the plus and minus of those:

1: CLASS abilities you prefer in day to day (both the standard ones and the class one).
2: CLASS abilities you prefer when raiding (or PVPing or WTV your main end-game activity is/will be).
3: Transmogs.
4: Lore wise which fits the most with you... That is not for everyone.
5: Other perks, mounts, etc.

[bewbew]

I think you've perfectly described Blizzard's exact intention with designing the Covenant abilities. Some will be dogshit, some will be cool. Most players will not pick a Covenant because of the ability, however. As a poster someodd pages back mentioned, they'll pick a Covenant because it's got those sweet fucking Owl people.

Yeah, and then the ability is awful for their class, they are done with the lore of the Owl people, and no pug lets them stay for more than one boss.

It's all a matter of how dramatically superior one Covenant will be to another for DPS Classes.

It looks like people in these forums that all talk about "choosing the fun option!" don't even play the game. Heroic Pugs are trigger happy on removing people. Choosing obvious bad choices to your performance will impact your capability to actually play the game, from dungeons to raids, pug or not, unless all you do is do World Quests, LFR and content from 2 expansions in the past.

[Thetruth1400]

So you're saying specs are balanced in 9.0 with them choosing the best Covenant in mind?

Specs aren't and will not ever be 100% balanced, but even a simple 1-2K more DPS people will go "Oh switch to Fire instead of Frost, it does more." That'll be the exact case here with these Covenants; "Why are you Covenant A? You'd do more switching to Covenant C."

I think we're overdramatizing things. It's one damage/healing/tanking ability, and one movement ability. The difference is not going to be anywhere near as dramatic as you think. This will be something mythic world first guilds take advantage of, it will not be something 90% of players will take advantage of. We'll see how it plays out but I really doubt it's going to make as big of an impact as you think... we'll have to see beta before we know for sure.

I'm not saying that this is an ideal situation or preferable one, but I'm not going to cry wolf until we have more details.

One ability means a lot though. When we lost one ability with losing our Legion legendaries, people really went, "man this feels unsatisfying."

As for the "Only the best will talk about this." I disagree. As I said above, even things as simple as a small DPS increase will cause people to go, "Take this spec over this one." "Take this talent over this one." There's no reason to assume it's going to be different for Covenants.

I'm not trying to cry wolf either, just using all the examples of it in the past that haven't exactly been ideal to make a well educated guess that this is going to go the same way.

[Ange]

I hope every class ability from all covenants will be really bad, because I would like to choose my covenant for its theme and cosmetics and not have to worry about a full progress reset mid expansion because some gimmicky ability is required to cheese one of the major end game contents.

[brt2pp]

One ability means a lot though. When we lost one ability with losing our Legion legendaries, people really went, "man this feels unsatisfying."
.

no, you are either ignorant, or distorting facts to fit narrative, loosing that one ability in fact was least of things that changed how classes played, especially since we got most of those abilities in talents anyway.

Also, covenant A might be better on boss A but coventant B might be better on boss B, and covenant C might have more survi necessary to down boss C, it isn't clear cut, and if it won't work out like that one covenant is objectively better in 90% of situations noone will bitch about them. but that's for blizzard to work out in alpha/beta. my only worry is that with 4 covenant there will definitely be the "bad one" that instead of beeing best in 25% of cases will be best in 20% of cases

Just as a sidenote, i see many people here don't know that covenants not only bring ability but also talent system, and arguably from the two, talent system is way more immportant for your character overall power

[Ryme]

Depends. If the difference is small enough, variance could easily exceed it. At which point, caring about it will be for a very specific and niche kind of player.

[Velerios]

Wouldn't it be possible to keep the covenants a purely narrative/cosmetic choice and deliver those abilities with the soulbinds, which would in that case not be tied to specific covenants? From what we heard so far, we get to know them all, so independent of our choice, all of them will have us in quite high regards.

But to be frank, i dont give a shit about the min/max aspect, I raid heroic with a tad of mythic in a rather casual guild.

Is it possible: yes, but is it fun: NO. And Min/maxer will MIN/MAX anyway, so why should we care about the 5% who does it? Why should the rest who don't care a **** about min/max suffer because of these people? Sorry, but NO. Always keeping things purely cosmetic, visual and so on just because of these 5% of people (and from them 90% who does NOT need to min/max but think they are so elite that they are forced to min/max) is idiotic.

[Redzonetode]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

Your topic title could be replaced with any feature in the game and it'd make sense.

[clevin]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make tryhards look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

Fixed that for you. Here's a revelation - not everyone gives a flying fuck about min-maxing. Some people will choose things that they feel are cool, or for RP reasons or because they like the feel of one of the Covenants.


Will some sheep just look up what some guide says is best? Sure. But that's on them.

[Fistfighter]

Yes, but that's not the fault of the game, that's the fault of the players.

If you want to play the boring Covenant, because it gives you a 5% dmg increase, go for it.

[Kalarm]

In short, the CLASSES seem like a headache to choose. You gotta choose one, and do the plus and minus of those:

1: CLASS abilities you prefer in day to day (both the standard ones and the class one).
2: CLASS abilities you prefer when raiding (or PVPing or WTV your main end-game activity is/will be).
3: Transmogs.
4: Lore wise which fits the most with you... That is not for everyone.
5: Other perks, mounts, etc.

Lol no.

A class is a big choice which affects everything but which you can always progress on another one at the same time. I had every class minus priests and rogue at max level from WoD to legion. A covenant is a big choice which presents different rewards in different facets of the game. A class is your vehicle though which you experience the game. A covenant will not dramatically change the gameplay experience but only the rewards and a few short cooldowns that will perform differently in different situations. A covenant is similar to choosing between grinding army of the light or argussian reach but you will never ever be able to choose the rewards from the other one. You can want to make alts to play another class. You won't want to make alts of the same class/spec specifically to have another character with a different new ability.