Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[Aucald]

Nobody seems to be considering at all that this myseterious runeforger might turn out to be Mal’ganis or someone, we’re just now learning WHERE it was forged, and this is elaboration and not a retcon of what we learned in the Arthas novel.

Quite possible and that would explain a few things, too. I think people in general are making long-term decisions on very scant info, myself. The proverbial jury is still out on quite a number of things insofar as I'm concerned.

[faithbane]

Turns out all along they were made in the shadowlands! I guess since KJ is dead now they are spitting on his grave in order to promote the new big boi boss. I wonder what new retcons are in store with this expansion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blizzar...ast-story/amp/

Honestly that is one of the least offensive things they said all weekend.. This is a minor retcon, nathrezim could have still made it using the power from shadowlands or maybe gone in there to retrieve it etc..

The worst thing that came out of the weekend was them saying that sylvanas was working for the jailor since the end of fucking LK!! It contradicts not only bazillion different moments in game and decisions sylvanas has taken, it has also directly contradicts the books and chapters where we hear things from her point of view lol

[nonameelf]

Maybe Jailer has come sorts of connection with the Legion? I mean demon's souls went to twisting nether instead of shadowlands when they died, there should be a connection there.

Didn't that get retconned in Legion to only happening because Argus?

[cparle87]

They added new lore to a historical point to explain that point with some level of continuity with current story lines. That's a retcon dude. It might not be as drastic as some are, but it still is a retcon nonetheless.

I'm not saying it's good, bad, or indifferent. Or if they can't make it 'fit' or even improve upon it. But that's what they did.

X was done. This is a fact. Years later we find out HOW X was done. This is not a retcon. Unless they told us how X was done, then changed their mind and told us forget what we said before, this is how it was done.

Unless they told us how Kil'jaeden created the sword and helm, which they didn't, and then changed the story to how he got them from the Shadowlands, it is not a retcon.

[BTHSE]

Well the shadowlands do have a vampire themed raid called Nathria so it isn't a stretch to think that it might be a Nathrezim conclave and they actually did forge the Lich King's armor and Frostmourne in the shadowlands using the strong necrotic energies there before handing it to Kil'jaeden so he could cram Ner'zhul in the helm. It's not exactly a retcon.. yet.

[Count Zero]

how do you know that the nathrezim didnt go to the shadowlands to craft the helm of domination and frostmourne??

They don't know. They're pulling this out of their ass.

- - - Updated - - -

Didn't that get retconned in Legion to only happening because Argus?

No. Argus accelerates the process, but it happens anywhere.

[Archmage Alodi]

Didn't that get retconned in Legion to only happening because Argus?

They were regenerating faster because of his power afaik.

[Nerovar]

Man, shit like this is probably what infuriates me the most and why it almost feels pointless getting invested in Warcraft's lore in any serious capacity.

Was it really that hard to come up with an explanation that doesn't invalidate previous lore we've known about KJ creating the helm?

Why should the new writers care about the old lore? They're just here to make their imprint and don't give a shit about what the previous writers contributed to the lore.

[DemonHunter18]

Old Lore >>> New Stuff

[oplawlz]

Honestly that is one of the least offensive things they said all weekend.. This is a minor retcon, nathrezim could have still made it using the power from shadowlands or maybe gone in there to retrieve it etc..

To me the problem isn't that this is some world altering change, but that they felt the need to change it at all for something that could be done in so many thousands of in-lore ways.

[InfiniteCharger]

Of course they retconned the lore of the Legion and the Helm of Domination which were made by demonic forces working against the natural order of death itself.

Now it was done with death's assistance... and now we too can go into the realm of death and make our own legendary death artifacts!!!

The legion was working with death all along to contain souls and keep the flow working as intended don't you know.

And now they are working with Sylvanas as well because of course her being undead doesn't matter and isn't an issue.

Nope. Something other than the legion using undeath "death magic" to stop the flow of souls into the realm of death is the problem.

LOL!

Literally what Ion said at Blizzcon.

[DemonHunter18]

demons are such pussies.

[StillMcfuu]

Turns out all along they were made in the shadowlands! I guess since KJ is dead now they are spitting on his grave in order to promote the new big boi boss. I wonder what new retcons are in store with this expansion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blizzar...ast-story/amp/

They could have made it work with the original lore of the Nathrezim creating it, Ner'zhul even mentions during the moment he is being turned into the LK that he felt something else in the process. They don't have to write the Nathrezim out, especially considering the building they did with their homeworld being a world cloaked in Shadow, as if it existed half in the Shadowlands.

[Zyky]

Nothing is sacred to blizzard, nothing at all.

It has nothing to do with Blizzard, it's Activision forcing them down certain paths. They're constantly having to retcon their lore because Activision wants them to do certain things certain ways to try and make their new player metrics look successful to investors.

[Andonais]

Nothing is explained yet people going all crazy from half information.

[Dellinth]

What is up with this fan bases insistence on being outraged. This is how they’ve written all of the lore for this game. Garosh was a character they created in TBC and no one said “I can’t believe they’re retconning grom to have a son we didn’t know about”. They’re taking something established in the lore and elaborating on it. The dreadlords are vampiric beings who use death magic they’re probably in some way related to the Venthyr and draw some power from the shadow lands. Them traveling to the shadow lands to create frostmourne makes that part of the lore make MORE sense.

[InfiniteCharger]

Because it makes no sense for forces of death (ie. benevolent forces of nature) to work with demons to use "death magic" to interrupt the natural flow. That contradicts all common sense. It also contradicts the Nathrezim being demons from the twisting nether.

It also contradicts the point of Nerzhul being sent to Azeroth to kill all the living not be a "jailer" of the damned as part of some grand scheme with death.

Not only that it contradicts the undead and the scourge as abominations throwing off the balance of nature and death.
Nope. All of that is thrown out the window with Sylvanas making a deal with death that basically allows her undead corpse to keep living.
Because by all rights any force of death should immediately snatch her soul to the shadowlands where she belongs.
But not going to happen because apparently death is ok with necromatic death magic keeping souls of the dead in the world of the living.
This is the "grand scheme" to be revealed in the upcoming xpac.

[naabu]

In Legion, we saw that the Burning Legion steals artifacts, such as our artifact weapons, and re-purposes them. In Burning Crusade, that is the reason the Legion invades Karazhan. To find, steal, and use magical items for the glory of the Burning Legion. The Legion re-purposed Iron Horde tech in WoD and Legion, and Ethereal tech in BC.

The idea that the Nathrezim stole the Helm of Damnation and Frostmourne from the Maw, or that they worked with the Necrolord of Maldraxxas to create them isn't that offensive to me, and actually aligns with established lore.

The Nathrezim have always played with other non-fel power sources, from Lothraxion to the void-saturated Nathrezim that confronted Sargeras. Perhaps, before they were taken into the Burning Legion, the Nathrezim were from the Shadowlands, or a material world saturated with Death magic? I mean, the look like they'd fit right in at Revendreth.
Or...
Perhaps the denizens of Maldraxxas deceived the Nathrezim, offering their aid to gain a foothold in the material world? Which was kind of the Lich Kings plan in Warcraft 3. Perhaps the fact that the Nathrezim didn't make the Helm of Damnation is actually the reason why Ner'zhul was able to gain independence and easily betrayed the Burning Legion after helping to orchestrate one of their most humiliating defeats?

Perhaps we'll all find out this expansion?

I remember even back in WotLK thinking the Helm of Damnation and Frostmourne didn't make sense as demonic inventions. None of the other demonic forces used Death magic, runes, or any of Scourge stuff. Which would make sense if it wasn't their stuff to begin with and couldn't really get more of it.

Final somewhat related thought: I had a long held theory that they Nathrezim foolishly forged the two out of Saronite, not realizing the powers they were playing with. This was based off of the Blizzcon quote that the connect between Arthas and Yogg-Saron wasn't made clear in WotLK and the devs regretted that. I always thought that Yogg-Saron was the mastermind, manipulating Ner'zhul and Arthas into betraying the Legion and using saronite to strength himself before his escape. Now it looks I had the relationship backwards. Now it seems like Yogg-Saron's proximity to Icecrown (and thus the veil to the Shadowlands) corrupted him with Death magic, not the other way around. Interesting idea.

[Feanoro]

"Why are you so attached to the original lore? Retcons are a good thing!" -the shills, no doubt on their way

Don't forget how flat out contradictions are "elaborating" on previous points.

[Nerovar]

Because it makes no sense for forces of death (ie. benevolent forces of nature) to work with demons to use "death magic" to interrupt the natural flow. That contradicts all common sense. It also contradicts the Nathrezim being demons from the twisting nether.

It also contradicts the point of Nerzhul being sent to Azeroth to kill all the living not be a "jailer" of the damned as part of some grand scheme with death.

Not only that it contradicts the undead and the scourge as abominations throwing off the balance of nature and death.
Nope. All of that is thrown out the window with Sylvanas making a deal with death that basically allows her undead corpse to keep living.
Because by all rights any force of death should immediately snatch her soul to the shadowlands where she belongs.
But not going to happen because apparently death is ok with necromatic death magic keeping souls of the dead in the world of the living.
This is the "grand scheme" to be revealed in the upcoming xpac.

My thoughts exactly. None of this makes any sense at all. It's cringe basically.