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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Ianus View Post
    they said that in warcraft 3 and was carried on in WoW and Wotlk happened and now its retcon from beginning.. its garbage beyond garbage

    - - - Updated - - -



    and he apologized and that he made a mistake at least he acknowledged it

    - - - Updated - - -



    and he apologized and that he made a mistake at least he acknowledged it
    Big deal. He also said the original was a throwaway line to fill space in the manual. You people get too hung up on this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CreatureLives View Post
    When they say no one escapes The Maw I think they mean no one escapes The Maw to go to other parts of the Shadowlands. Resurrection is something different. Someone living is pulling you back to their world. The whole point of us being there is we are special because we are the living. We have a power that they don't. It's the same reason why we escape The Maw when we first get there.

    And if that excuse doesn't work then Sylvanas was the one who raised the night elves and she is in bed with The Jailer.
    I think they meant no one escapes as in souls not physical beings.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    That's a lot of assumptions. WoW nowadays is closer to TLJ than Mass Effect
    Imo, that's a good thing. I enjoyed TLJ more than I enjoyed any of the Mass Effect games.

  3. #103
    WoWs lore went downhill when they turned it into titans, gods and players having the powers of gods etc etc. Having Lich King, Illidan, Ragnaros.. Hell, even Deathwing (even if they kind of ruined WoW with a lot of random features at this point) was perfect villians.

    You knew they were powerful, but they could be stopped. You were excited to see them. You discussed among friends how powerful they were, compared to others, and how it might end up etc.

    But now, it's all the same. It's either "HORDE LEADER WENT BAD", or "SUPER TITAN GODDY STUFF" and it's all just the same, overblown shit. Stuff that you as a player really shouldn't be able to fight, but you can because of "SUPER GODDY STUFF ITEM!" Warcraft didnt ever have the best lore, but it had the most entertaining one. It's all down the drain now.

  4. #104
    The Lightbringer Bosen's Avatar
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    Reality in gameplay will never match up to imagination and expectations.

    Blizzard has finite resources and timelines. There's also the reality of trying to find things that are intetesting to them as well as us and how to translate that into engaging gameplay that isn't wholey cookie cutter. That being said,they're also forced to stay true to a genre.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Point 1. Blizzard retconned a lot of lore to make them happen
    This point has already been beaten to death by other posters but I feel like I have to go over it again. Retconning lore on a grand scale like they did with the Shadowlands cheapens everything that happened in the old continuity. Kil'jaeden is no longer a powerful, ingenious demon lord who created the Scourge. He's just some cheap hack who had his goons steal some artifacts from the Shadowlands and then borrowed Maldraxxus' magic. By extensions the Nathrezim are lame too now since they aren't the masters of necromantic magic and the creators of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination that we thought they were. And this example is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't be buying WC3: Reforged now because replaying the campaign knowing that Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul & co were just cheap hacks who borrowed or stole stuff that wasn't theirs won't feel right.

    Other lore simply doesn't work in the new continuity. If all the souls have been going to the Maw since (at the very least) Teldrassil and no one escapes from the Maw, how did Delaryn and Sira get raised? It's just a glaring plothole now.

    But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...
    It never said in the lore where the Nathrezim created the Armor and Sword, just that they did. There's a reason KJ chose that specific spot for the Frozen Throne. With the opening of the portal and showing that Torghast is directly above ICC could mean that KJ didn't keep Ner'zhul on Azeroth. Him and the Nathrezim could have gone into the shadow lands, killed the original jailor and replaced him with Ner'zhul, thus him being chained up in the cinematic. Then forged the armor and weapon and linked Ner'zhuls soul to it. That way Ner'zhul was still bound to the physical world, but couldn't be killed since his soul resided elsewhere.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Velzen View Post
    If the gameplay is great I don't really care.
    I like the theme of the expansion.
    You and I both.

  7. #107
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    all those millions of players are on Classic...
    Source on that?
    Hi

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Source on that?
    they said it on Blizzcon.

    millions of them went to Classic or something.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Point 1. Blizzard retconned a lot of lore to make them happen
    This point has already been beaten to death by other posters but I feel like I have to go over it again. Retconning lore on a grand scale like they did with the Shadowlands cheapens everything that happened in the old continuity. Kil'jaeden is no longer a powerful, ingenious demon lord who created the Scourge. He's just some cheap hack who had his goons steal some artifacts from the Shadowlands and then borrowed Maldraxxus' magic. By extensions the Nathrezim are lame too now since they aren't the masters of necromantic magic and the creators of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination that we thought they were. And this example is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't be buying WC3: Reforged now because replaying the campaign knowing that Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul & co were just cheap hacks who borrowed or stole stuff that wasn't theirs won't feel right.

    Other lore simply doesn't work in the new continuity. If all the souls have been going to the Maw since (at the very least) Teldrassil and no one escapes from the Maw, how did Delaryn and Sira get raised? It's just a glaring plothole now.

    But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...

    Point 2. Why do the Shadowlands deserve their own expansion in the first place?
    People were hyped to go to Argus for at least a decade. It ended up being a couple of barren rocks floating in space and Sargeras' main base of operations was somehow less impressive than Scourge fortresses in Icecrown, who were supposed to be the Legion's proxies. Did you want to see the purple heels of Mac'Aree? Fuck you. Advanced Eredar technology? Fuck you. Grandiose Burning Legion strongholds? Fuck you.

    Same goes for Nazjatar. The branch of Naga in the Outland somehow managed to have a more impressive presence in Zangarmarsh than in their own capital on Azeroth. At least the Coilfang facility had 3 dungeons and a raid. Nazjatar was just one small raid surrounded by a barren seafloor and... that's it.

    Won't even get started on Ny'alotha. What they did there after a decade of build up is an atrocity. Argus at least got 3 zones. The "great and terrible city of Ny'alotha" ended up being two cramped, instances temples. Which brings me to...

    Point 3. Blizzard doesn't care about the integrity of Warcraft's lore
    It would have made sense if Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha / Black Empire had gotten their own expansions. They were, after all, very important places. Arguably more important than Pandaria which did end up being a fully-fledged continent.

    Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about what makes sense and what doesn't. They listened to a bunch of bogus complaints that people were tired of fel green / underwater zones / tentacles and decided to quickly ax those stories despite them being fundamental, long-running parts of the Warcraft universe. Guess what? Shit storytelling and gameplay makes games unenjoyable, not color palettes. People still play Counterstrike decades later despite it having a relatively boring and same-y color palette.

    And even if we assume that a same-y color palette has any bearing on the enjoyability of a game, who's to say Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha couldn't have been colorful and diverse? After all, Blizzard managed to take a barren black / white / grey dimension and turn it into something that resembles and acid trip and based an entire expansion around it. Too bad Argus didn't get the same treatment.

    How can you get invested in the lore of a game when all the shots are called by investors and the "boohoo who cares about the lore, give me colorful enemies to slay" crowd rather than the writers? You can't. Speaking of the writers...

    Point 4. The current writing team has no respect for the efforts of the OGs like Metzen
    The current writing team just jumps on the latest twitter bandwagon and bases the entire story around it. WC3 Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande were strong women and Thrall embodied non-toxic masculinity. BfA Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande are just caricatures of their WC3 selves. And Anduin is non-toxic to the detriment of common sense.

    Point 5. Blizzard just does whatever the fuck they want to
    Blizzard wants Dracula's castle in WoW? Blizzard makes Dracula's castle in WoW. Which leads me to believe that the current team is completely unversed in Warcraft's lore if they have to do complete asspulls and retcon existing lore to create something interesting.

    Or even worse, they DON'T care about WoW's lore. They just sit down and and come up with whatever generic fantasy trope they want to draw / write a story about on a given day and roll with it. Existing lore be damned. Speaking of genericity...

    Point 6. The Shadowlands are completely generic
    The Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrians and the Venthyr are just caricatures of the Wild Gods, the Scourge, the Val'kyr and the San'layn respectively. But whereas the latter factions have rich backstories and were introduced into Warcraft in an organic, non-jarring way, the former factions are just asspulls that Blizzard came up with on the spot to fill the Shadowlands with variety. There's nothing new or interesting about the Shadowlands Covenants. They're just regurgitated and less interesting versions of what we already had for years.

    Point 7. The Shadowlands are extremely childish
    If you're a good man - you go to WoW heaven. If you're a bad man - you got to WoW hell. It's dogmatic, it's simplistic, it's browbeating. There's absolutely zero need to say "oh yeah Kael'thas was a bad man so he's getting tortured by BDSM vampires in hell for eternity". It reads like something a 5 year old child would write to "punish" a bad character he dislikes. Kael'thas already got his punishment and that was the legacy of the Sunstriders being completely destroyed and all but forgotten about. It's a way more fitting punishment for a character's misdeeds than saying "oh yeah he was a bad man so he's going to burn in hell."

    But worst of all, Blizzard just can't or refuses to write satisfying story arcs anymore. Everything drags on for years and years and the gets wrapped up in the least satisfying way imaginable. Give us something fun, concise and enjoyable like the Blood Elves' redemption arc in TBC. Not more of Sylvanas' edgy adventures.
    blizz can do what they want with lore. Shadowlands is very very important, judging by the fact it has an expansion around it... they know the importance of nyalotha and nazjatar and argus over you. They put those zones where they thought it would make sense lore wise. Shadowlands are also not hell.... saying the afterlife is childish is one of the most stupid things ive ever heard, they shadowlands are actually one of the most mature concepts we have seen
    yeast

  10. #110
    Titan Al Gorefiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    WoWs lore went downhill when they turned it into titans, gods and players having the powers of gods etc etc. Having Lich King, Illidan, Ragnaros.. Hell, even Deathwing (even if they kind of ruined WoW with a lot of random features at this point) was perfect villians.

    You knew they were powerful, but they could be stopped. You were excited to see them. You discussed among friends how powerful they were, compared to others, and how it might end up etc.

    But now, it's all the same. It's either "HORDE LEADER WENT BAD", or "SUPER TITAN GODDY STUFF" and it's all just the same, overblown shit. Stuff that you as a player really shouldn't be able to fight, but you can because of "SUPER GODDY STUFF ITEM!" Warcraft didnt ever have the best lore, but it had the most entertaining one. It's all down the drain now.
    I don’t agree WoWs lore has gone downhill, nor do I agree Shadowlands is full of plot holes.

    But one think I will definitely agree with you here - WoW was better when we weren’t superheroes fighting off intergalactic invasions and time traveling orcs.

  11. #111
    I completely agree with your points 2 and 3, but not that the Shadowlands don't deserve their own expansion as I think they do, I agree with the part where Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha were completely wasted. Enormous potential in each of them that could have been vastly explored much to the delight of the fans. We keep getting unsatisfying small conclusions to fundamental parts of the Warcraft lore and I think the people compiling the story do not appreciate the weight these places, characters or organizations have. I do think if Chris Metzen was still involved he wouldn't let the core elements of Warcraft to be burnt through the way they are.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    Source on that?
    They said they were happy millions of people visited Azeroth again in Classic. Doesn't mean it produced millions of subscriptions since a lot of the players might just be people playing retail and chillin with classic a bit.

    But the servers are still freaking full all over the world. Classic is here to stay, and playing it makes you realise what really is different from retail.

    WoW Classic is a game where you go on an adventure and have fun. Retail is a game where you play a story and rush to the finish line. Both great and bad on different points, but I'm one that loves the adventure so I hope real RPG elements come back to retail =(

  13. #113
    Agree with OP, very good points.

    Also the cinematic brings no hype. Remember WotlK? even Cataclysm, where you were shown the main villain of the expansion?

    Nowadays we have "Skies breaking" Let's venture into a new unexplored world and meet new foes!

    Come on, make a cinematic surrounding the Jailer, give a backstory. Show HIM. IF he's to be centered around, and had such a build-up...Unless he's a known figure, there's no real reason why not show him...

    Instead, fanservice cinematic with Bolvar and Sylvanas.

    It's like going to the cinema to see a movie, and on the poster there is a big "?" instead of the main cast.

  14. #114
    1 you sound like a lil bitch
    2. complain complain complain.. if you dont like it.. dont play.. its not that a hard of a concept
    3. go play hello kitty island adventure

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2019-11-06 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  15. #115
    Of course Shadowlands makes us depressed. It's about death man!

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin2k View Post
    What have they retconned from Chronicles? Since that's the only canon that exists for lore now
    From the posts I read people are upset that they said "Chronicle is from certain people's point of view and that there are others at the same time" which allows them to adjust anything if needed in order to fit the bigger narrative. As far as I can tell nothing directly was retconned from the book, just other points of view mentioned.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Point 1. Blizzard retconned a lot of lore to make them happen
    This point has already been beaten to death by other posters but I feel like I have to go over it again. Retconning lore on a grand scale like they did with the Shadowlands cheapens everything that happened in the old continuity. Kil'jaeden is no longer a powerful, ingenious demon lord who created the Scourge. He's just some cheap hack who had his goons steal some artifacts from the Shadowlands and then borrowed Maldraxxus' magic. By extensions the Nathrezim are lame too now since they aren't the masters of necromantic magic and the creators of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination that we thought they were. And this example is just the tip of the iceberg. I won't be buying WC3: Reforged now because replaying the campaign knowing that Kil'jaeden, Ner'zhul & co were just cheap hacks who borrowed or stole stuff that wasn't theirs won't feel right.

    Other lore simply doesn't work in the new continuity. If all the souls have been going to the Maw since (at the very least) Teldrassil and no one escapes from the Maw, how did Delaryn and Sira get raised? It's just a glaring plothole now.

    But worst of all, it's hard to care about the lore when Blizzard keeps making shit up on the spot and coming up with new "biggest threat ever" every other year or so and waylaying established characters. Why get invested in the lore of the Shadowlands when it's a given that the Jailer will end up being a mook for some other cosmic threat? Speaking of waylayed characters...

    Point 2. Why do the Shadowlands deserve their own expansion in the first place?
    People were hyped to go to Argus for at least a decade. It ended up being a couple of barren rocks floating in space and Sargeras' main base of operations was somehow less impressive than Scourge fortresses in Icecrown, who were supposed to be the Legion's proxies. Did you want to see the purple heels of Mac'Aree? Fuck you. Advanced Eredar technology? Fuck you. Grandiose Burning Legion strongholds? Fuck you.

    Same goes for Nazjatar. The branch of Naga in the Outland somehow managed to have a more impressive presence in Zangarmarsh than in their own capital on Azeroth. At least the Coilfang facility had 3 dungeons and a raid. Nazjatar was just one small raid surrounded by a barren seafloor and... that's it.

    Won't even get started on Ny'alotha. What they did there after a decade of build up is an atrocity. Argus at least got 3 zones. The "great and terrible city of Ny'alotha" ended up being two cramped, instances temples. Which brings me to...

    Point 3. Blizzard doesn't care about the integrity of Warcraft's lore
    It would have made sense if Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha / Black Empire had gotten their own expansions. They were, after all, very important places. Arguably more important than Pandaria which did end up being a fully-fledged continent.

    Unfortunately Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about what makes sense and what doesn't. They listened to a bunch of bogus complaints that people were tired of fel green / underwater zones / tentacles and decided to quickly ax those stories despite them being fundamental, long-running parts of the Warcraft universe. Guess what? Shit storytelling and gameplay makes games unenjoyable, not color palettes. People still play Counterstrike decades later despite it having a relatively boring and same-y color palette.

    And even if we assume that a same-y color palette has any bearing on the enjoyability of a game, who's to say Argus, Nazjatar and Ny'alotha couldn't have been colorful and diverse? After all, Blizzard managed to take a barren black / white / grey dimension and turn it into something that resembles and acid trip and based an entire expansion around it. Too bad Argus didn't get the same treatment.

    How can you get invested in the lore of a game when all the shots are called by investors and the "boohoo who cares about the lore, give me colorful enemies to slay" crowd rather than the writers? You can't. Speaking of the writers...

    Point 4. The current writing team has no respect for the efforts of the OGs like Metzen
    The current writing team just jumps on the latest twitter bandwagon and bases the entire story around it. WC3 Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande were strong women and Thrall embodied non-toxic masculinity. BfA Sylvanas, Jaina, Tyrande are just caricatures of their WC3 selves. And Anduin is non-toxic to the detriment of common sense.

    Point 5. Blizzard just does whatever the fuck they want to
    Blizzard wants Dracula's castle in WoW? Blizzard makes Dracula's castle in WoW. Which leads me to believe that the current team is completely unversed in Warcraft's lore if they have to do complete asspulls and retcon existing lore to create something interesting.

    Or even worse, they DON'T care about WoW's lore. They just sit down and and come up with whatever generic fantasy trope they want to draw / write a story about on a given day and roll with it. Existing lore be damned. Speaking of genericity...

    Point 6. The Shadowlands are completely generic
    The Night Fae, the Necrolords, the Kyrians and the Venthyr are just caricatures of the Wild Gods, the Scourge, the Val'kyr and the San'layn respectively. But whereas the latter factions have rich backstories and were introduced into Warcraft in an organic, non-jarring way, the former factions are just asspulls that Blizzard came up with on the spot to fill the Shadowlands with variety. There's nothing new or interesting about the Shadowlands Covenants. They're just regurgitated and less interesting versions of what we already had for years.

    Point 7. The Shadowlands are extremely childish
    If you're a good man - you go to WoW heaven. If you're a bad man - you got to WoW hell. It's dogmatic, it's simplistic, it's browbeating. There's absolutely zero need to say "oh yeah Kael'thas was a bad man so he's getting tortured by BDSM vampires in hell for eternity". It reads like something a 5 year old child would write to "punish" a bad character he dislikes. Kael'thas already got his punishment and that was the legacy of the Sunstriders being completely destroyed and all but forgotten about. It's a way more fitting punishment for a character's misdeeds than saying "oh yeah he was a bad man so he's going to burn in hell."

    But worst of all, Blizzard just can't or refuses to write satisfying story arcs anymore. Everything drags on for years and years and the gets wrapped up in the least satisfying way imaginable. Give us something fun, concise and enjoyable like the Blood Elves' redemption arc in TBC. Not more of Sylvanas' edgy adventures.
    Way TLDR. No video game is worth this much attention. It definitely shouldn't make you depressed. I would recommend cutting yourself off completely from all games for at least 6 months.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    For all their faults, TBC-WotLK era still felt distinctly "Warcraft-y" to me. Cataclysm was an early warning sign for me when they rampaged through the Elemental Planes and wrecked the Dragonflights in favor of pushing their "age of mortals" narrative. With MoP and later Legion and BfA came heavy browbeating moral lessons that were very uncharacteristic of early Warcraft.

    If I had to describe the "Warcraft-y" feeling in one word, it would be "badass". Sure, WC2 Horde, WC3 Burning Legion and the Scourge were completely unrepentant evil bastards but they were still beloved characters because they were badass. Arthas' invasion of Quel'Thalas didn't feel "wrong" like the War of Thornes. It felt badass. Thrall didn't lead the orcs on an exodus to Kalimdor because he felt guilty about the Old Horde's actions. He wanted to build a new life for the Horde and he was more than happy to crush some humans skulls along the way.

    Ever since MoP it feels like there's a lot of mopey, whiny or otherwise edgy characters. Even Sargeras was retconned to be driven by fear rather than badassery. All of this, of course, came to a head in BfA with Saurfang's incessant whining about honor.
    That's actually a real-life problem right now, people get offended by anything, and people want inclusion, and inclusion sells.

    When Sylvanas burned the tree everyone was like genocide! Poor alliance! omg my feelings!

    There can't be badass anymore because new kids need to connect their feelings with whatever they are watching otherwise it's old and awful. Writers are just probably forced to write stories based on how the new generation feels and react, so well..... We are just old now too.

  19. #119
    I feel like Argus didn't get its own expansion purely because of Legion, as someone previously mentioned, which is fair to an extent. We'd have had 2 and bit expansions based around fighting demons/the burning legion. Nazjatar is a tricky one, thematically it would have been expansion based underwater, depending on surrounding areas and races. A lot of people disliked Vashj'ir (I enjoyed it personally) and that was one zone, so having an expansion with a similar theme could have been risky. Having said that, I thought Nazjatar was quite disappointing, it felt so empty for the Naga Empire. The one that genuinely saddens me though, is Ny'alotha. The old gods have always been a point of interest to me and I was really hoping for a Black Empire based expansion.
    I remember you... In the mountains

  20. #120
    I have no idea why they think it's a good idea to misspend important lore places like Argus, Ny'alotha, and Naz'jatar in small patches. When you introduce new continents/areas in expansions, have the content throughout the expansion fit THOSE PLACES, or in already existing zones in the old world. Don't have us go to new places mid- or late-expansion that are only done half-assed, when they can potentially be used PROPERLY later.

    They've been far too hasty lately in abandoning the content they create. Hell, I would've been fine with them not introducing new zones/areas for years if they actually created content for the zones they already had, and kept them dynamic and updated.

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