So is the Death knight class campaign considered to be "from titan's perspective?"

[shuubu]

It's worth noting that originally we raided the crypts of Light's Hope in order to properly raise Tirion, even the early alpha/beta had us successful in raising him, he had a unique model and everything. They were forced to change it after paladin players chucked a tantrum. Unfortunately rather than creating an entire different finale they just kept what was coded in already and edited the final order hall follower. Early alpha/beta also had us knocking out or distracting the paladins, not killing them.

As for the OP, there are plenty of inconsistencies in the game to complain about. The consistency of Bolvar's voice is most definitely not one of them.

The voice is not what my main complaint is about. I should have never even brought it up as that's what people are clinging on to. The jist is the change of character. He was clearly rather evilish in legion and now he's suddenly our buddybuddy helping us in the shadowlands.

It's also kinda weird how people are arguing that he wasn't portrayed as evil in Legion, but then again we probably still have people saying Aunt Sylvie isn't evil either, so...

[Daevelian]

The voice is not what my main complaint is about. I should have never even brought it up as that's what people are clinging on to. The jist is the change of character. He was clearly rather evilish in legion and now he's suddenly our buddybuddy helping us in the shadowlands.

Pragmatic = evil now folks, heard it here first!

[Combatbutler]

The voice is not what my main complaint is about. I should have never even brought it up as that's what people are clinging on to. The jist is the change of character. He was clearly rather evilish in legion and now he's suddenly our buddybuddy helping us in the shadowlands.

Bolvar is the poster boy of lawful evil, back then and now. He was willing to enslave millions and was willing to murder anyone who stepped into his hold to get their stuff back, like Lyandra Sunstrider and then shackles them into undeath, instead of throwing them out, or you know just killing them. He just isn't powerhungry.

[Leih]

The voice is not what my main complaint is about. I should have never even brought it up as that's what people are clinging on to. The jist is the change of character. He was clearly rather evilish in legion and now he's suddenly our buddybuddy helping us in the shadowlands.

It's also kinda weird how people are arguing that he wasn't portrayed as evil in Legion, but then again we probably still have people saying Aunt Sylvie isn't evil either, so...

I wrote you a big post about how Bolvar and the Lich King are not the same entity. You ignored all of it and focused in on the voice part only

[shuubu]

I wrote you a big post about how Bolvar and the Lich King are not the same entity. You ignored all of it and focused in on the voice part only

Because it was mostly just your own interpretation of how it is. Pretty sure it was Ner'zhul who said "now we are one" in the cinematic, although that doesn't matter. It mostly refers to those two merging. There were so many inconcistancies between the books and how LK was in Wotlk (like calling himself a shaman in howling fjord).

[Saltysquidoon]

He also murdered a mage, tried to murder the PC mage. Murdered some dragons and scourged and ancient red dragon.
Given the above and the whole four horsemen thing he wasn't going to be winning nice guy of the year awards.

[shuubu]

He also murdered a mage, tried to murder the PC mage. Murdered some dragons and scourged and ancient red dragon.
Given the above and the whole four horsemen thing he wasn't going to be winning nice guy of the year awards.

Yeah but that's just called being pragmatic according to this forum.

[Leih]

Pretty sure it was Ner'zhul who said "now we are one" in the cinematic,

It was neither of them. It was The Lich King, the entity formed when the collective consciousness of Ner'zhul, Arthas an the Helm of Domination merged together.

It mostly refers to those two merging.

It is very easy to extrapolate from the merging of Arthas into the Lich King entity to get some idea of how things went when Bolvar entered that consciousness, even if the specifics aren't fully detailed yet because we don't yet have a Bolvar novel.

Do you actually want answers or were you just wanting to push a specific viewpoint without room for discussion?

It's really not that complicated.

Bolvar in Legion = THE LICH KING, which is Bolvar+the consciousnesses contained in the helm.
Bolvar in Shadowlands = Just Bolvar, perhaps altered by his experiences, but minus the influence of the helm.

Why is it strange to you that he might act differently when he is a different person without the Helm?

[shuubu]

It was neither of them. It was The Lich King, the entity formed when the collective consciousness of Ner'zhul, Arthas an the Helm of Domination merged together.



It is very easy to extrapolate from the merging of Arthas into the Lich King entity to get some idea of how things went when Bolvar entered that consciousness, even if the specifics aren't fully detailed yet because we don't yet have a Bolvar novel.

Do you actually want answers or were you just wanting to push a specific viewpoint without room for discussion?

It's really not that complicated.

Bolvar in Legion = THE LICH KING, which is Bolvar+the consciousnesses contained in the helm.
Bolvar in Shadowlands = Just Bolvar, perhaps altered by his experiences, but minus the influence of the helm.

Why is it strange to you that he might act differently when he is a different person without the Helm?

Again, it could be like what you said, but no source confirms what you are saying that the Lk is it's own entity. The game itself, blizzard statements and books are so contradictory on this. You yourself just chose to see it in the way you describe here. The shadowlands xpack undoubtly will mix it up even further.

[letgoit]

I'm confused. Why do people think Bolvar is just like Nerzhul/Arthas because they wore the same crown?

The Lich King is just the one that have the helm to control the scourge. Am I missing something? Just because another one picks up the helm doesn't mean they become the same person. Lich King is more of a title. Just because two people are Kings doesn't mean they rule the same or have same agenda.
If there is some Lich King essence in the helm, it's clear that Bolvar fights it which is completely opposite to what Arthas did, who embraced it.

I'm well aware I could be completely wrong however.

Read up on the Lich Kong’s lore because you are very wrong.

[Leih]

Again, it could be like what you said, but no source confirms what you are saying that the Lk is it's own entity. The game itself, blizzard statements and books are so contradictory on this. You yourself just chose to see it in the way you describe here. The shadowlands xpack undoubtly will mix it up even further.

If that is your point of view then I suppose the thread as a whole is invalid? Going back to the OP, you said:

Is it safe to assume that not even happenings in the game can be considered as canon and things can change into "titan's perspective" at whim?

The answer is no, it's not safe to assume that. There is no source yet regarding Bolvar or the differences in Bolvar from Legion->BFA->Shadowlands. Since speculation and your own interpretation is not permitted, then you can't assume anything

[cocomen2]

I'm confused. Why do people think Bolvar is just like Nerzhul/Arthas because they wore the same crown?

The Lich King is just the one that have the helm to control the scourge. Am I missing something? Just because another one picks up the helm doesn't mean they become the same person. Lich King is more of a title. Just because two people are Kings doesn't mean they rule the same or have same agenda.
If there is some Lich King essence in the helm, it's clear that Bolvar fights it which is completely opposite to what Arthas did, who embraced it.

I'm well aware I could be completely wrong however.

Man, do you saw legion DK class campaign - pure evil to me, if you think this is how he "Lich King essence in the helm, it's clear that Bolvar fights it " fights it.... seems he doing that pretty BADLY and losing at it.

[shuubu]

If that is your point of view then I suppose the thread as a whole is invalid? Going back to the OP, you said:



The answer is no, it's not safe to assume that. There is no source yet regarding Bolvar or the differences in Bolvar from Legion->BFA->Shadowlands. Since speculation and your own interpretation is not permitted, then you can't assume anything

No it's completely permitted and also needed because otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about

I'm just saying that the reason why I didn't go indepth with your analysis of the Lich king persona is because it's just your view on the matter and not actually stated facts of the Lich king as those facts are contradictory and seem to change on an xpack basis.

[Aleloron]

You say evil, I say morally grey.

Potato, po-bot.

[Leih]

No it's completely permitted and also needed because otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about

I'm just saying that the reason why I didn't go indepth with your analysis of the Lich king persona is because it's just your view on the matter and not actually stated facts of the Lich king as those facts are contradictory and seem to change on an xpack basis.

Hmm.

I think everything I pointed out follows the current lore of the Lich King based on most recent sources, with the only assumption being that Bolvar assuming the mantle of Lich King worked the same as when Arthas did.

Either way, even if you disregard most of it, the key point of the matter, when going back to your original question in the thread, is that The Lich King as an entity is more than just the person wearing the helm. We know that for a fact. So Bolvar without the Helm is not necessarily the same person as Bolvar with the Helm (i.e. The Lich King), so differences in behaviour, voice and morality are not unexpected.

[Kumorii]

Man, do you saw legion DK class campaign - pure evil to me, if you think this is how he "Lich King essence in the helm, it's clear that Bolvar fights it " fights it.... seems he doing that pretty BADLY and losing at it.

I mean, I didn't... but even then, he hasn't started a war against us and clearly worked with us in some regard. So in my book, that's definitely less evil and not full of carnage like Nerzhul/Arthas was. But reading up on some lore, atm I still see Lich King more as a title of the one currently controlling the scourge. Clearly it changes people however, which is why I think Bolvar is obviously fighting it.

But yeah, he has been portrayed as a pretty weak character. Doesn't surprise me he was losing.

- - - Updated - - -

Read up on the Lich Kong’s lore because you are very wrong.

Dunno, anything I could find didn't give a definitive answer.
It's clear through actions that Bolvar isn't the same. It's also clear the helm is influencing and having an effect on him.

I still stand by him fighting to give in, ergo, he's not the same Lich King as Arthas/Nerzhul Lich King. If he had been sitting there longer he would most likely give in completely in the end and become the same as them.

[Aucald]

Bolvar, as the Jailer of the Damned, is kind of hard to pin-down alignment wise. I would say his alignment is ultimately in flux, but it probably comes out closer to Lawful Neutral than anything else. Bolvar's essentially Lawful Good nature is in contrast to the Helm of Domination's Lawful Evil nature, with the result coming out an axiomatic neutrality of a kind - where the Jailer of the Damned is willing to do evil things for a good purpose.

Not sure if that helps really, but it's the closest approximation I can think of. The Jailer of the Damned tells the DK Deathlord that he is "empty," and I think that pretty much sums it up. The Jailer of the Damned is a moral void, above (or perhaps below) good and evil - completely pragmatic and hidebound, existing only to perform the task for which he exists through any means necessary and/or expedient to said goal.

[salate]

Check his voice in Legion in case you didn't play the DK campaign.

Yeah but he never lost helm during the campaign

And well, Scourge 2.0 will happen, so... He was probably not that bad.

[Kyrian Warrior]

In the legion DK campaign the Lich king was portrayed as a rather evil chap with plans of his own, as presented in the finale of getting the class mount. Now he's a good guy again with a completely different voice too in Shadowlands. Is it safe to assume that not even happenings in the game can be considered as canon and things can change into "titan's perspective" at whim?

Maybe it's the helm that had that influence.

[Mirishka]

That all remains to be seen, tbh. It is entirely possible the helm of domination changed him while he wore it.

It changed his voice as he was freezing on the throne, I noticed that the first time my guild killed LK. He went from angry, desperate Bolvar to pretty much sounding like Arthas-LK as the sentence finished.



And during Legion he definitely did some stuff I would consider evil/sinister, like sending us after the red dragonflight. I got through that without killing a single one of them, but I imagine that canonically, we probably killed tons. Maybe as payback for what Alexstrasza did to him?