There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Akibaboy]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

You're missing the opinions of the people who want to play an RPG and are interested in the immersion and fantasy of recruiting new allies and gaining powers that speak to them, and are less concerned with their epeen and raid numbers. In addition to that, the people who like to just play games by making choices in the game itself, instead of reading a website tell them how to play the game. For example, I recall that in 2005 while playing Vanilla WoW (and for several years after) I would just build my spec based on what seemed like the best talents. Then a week later I'd change them up and see if I felt better about them. I'd try another one, and continue to * play the video game * instead of looking up a chart that did it for me.

The playerbase is the one hamstringing the game design because any time any element of it is a little bit compelling they clamor for its removal. I remember one of my raid members saying about essences in 8.2, "The fact that I can't sim these things and find out what's best just shows how terribly they're designed"... when in fact it's the exact opposite - the fact that a player might have to use some brain cells or pick what they think is great, instead of having a robot play the game for you.

I guarantee that for 95% of the playerbase, the powers and abilities will be tuned in a way that you can still accomplish all of your goals and desires, and if you can't it's a bigger issue with skill or needing a better group, etc. The main people that will have a problem are the professional e-sport players who want to finish a raid in a week, everyone else will be fine. The same was true of Azerite gear and Essences in BfA, and Legendaries in Legion - plenty of people accomplished all of their Mythic goals and content without 100% optimized perfect gear and items just fine. The design team offering up more choice and control over those things is great, but there should still be choice.

[WorldofWorkcraft]

You're missing the opinions of the people who want to play an RPG and are interested in the immersion and fantasy of recruiting new allies and gaining powers that speak to them, and are less concerned with their epeen and raid numbers. In addition to that, the people who like to just play games by making choices in the game itself, instead of reading a website tell them how to play the game. For example, I recall that in 2005 while playing Vanilla WoW (and for several years after) I would just build my spec based on what seemed like the best talents. Then a week later I'd change them up and see if I felt better about them. I'd try another one, and continue to * play the video game * instead of looking up a chart that did it for me.

The playerbase is the one hamstringing the game design because any time any element of it is a little bit compelling they clamor for its removal. I remember one of my raid members saying about essences in 8.2, "The fact that I can't sim these things and find out what's best just shows how terribly they're designed"... when in fact it's the exact opposite - the fact that a player might have to use some brain cells or pick what they think is great, instead of having a robot play the game for you.

I guarantee that for 95% of the playerbase, the powers and abilities will be tuned in a way that you can still accomplish all of your goals and desires, and if you can't it's a bigger issue with skill or needing a better group, etc. The main people that will have a problem are the professional e-sport players who want to finish a raid in a week, everyone else will be fine. The same was true of Azerite gear and Essences in BfA, and Legendaries in Legion - plenty of people accomplished all of their Mythic goals and content without 100% optimized perfect gear and items just fine. The design team offering up more choice and control over those things is great, but there should still be choice.

Agree here. Unfortunately the only thing we can hope for is that Blizzard balances better than they have (ha), as to not impose so many hurdles to choice. If you've got 1 class dominating the damage boards over multiple raid tiers and also out-performing in dungeons, it's a problem. That usually doesn't happen. We can both say people are allowed to not play the BEST DPS spec/class because of choice, but we also can say Blizzard isn't off the hook here in terms of balancing the classes/powers/etc. to at LEAST be fun.

People say Legion felt fun, and THEN they say the powers were OP or crazy. Order of operations matter. Many game developers lose sight of fun for balance. I'll say if my Elemental Shaman is performing the worst but is super fun, it'll be hard to say whether or not I'll play him for something like pushing keys/tower or heroic raiding. However, I tend to lean toward fun rather than potential power. It's Blizzard's fault for getting people into this mindset in a way, so they have to really mix it up and balance fun with balance.

[Akibaboy]

Agree here. Unfortunately the only thing we can hope for is that Blizzard balances better than they have (ha), as to not impose so many hurdles to choice. If you've got 1 class dominating the damage boards over multiple raid tiers and also out-performing in dungeons, it's a problem. That usually doesn't happen. We can both say people are allowed to not play the BEST DPS spec/class because of choice, but we also can say Blizzard isn't off the hook here in terms of balancing the classes/powers/etc. to at LEAST be fun.

People say Legion felt fun, and THEN they say the powers were OP or crazy. Order of operations matter. Many game developers lose sight of fun for balance. I'll say if my Elemental Shaman is performing the worst but is super fun, it'll be hard to say whether or not I'll play him for something like pushing keys/tower or heroic raiding. However, I tend to lean toward fun rather than potential power. It's Blizzard's fault for getting people into this mindset in a way, so they have to really mix it up and balance fun with balance.

Balance is important. It's one of the reasons I play Classic only as a non-serious filler game, because core balance is all over the board. That said, I've played some of the "bad" specs in BfA and was still mostly viable in comparison to my peers. I acknowledge they didn't feel the best but there wasn't an element of not being able to play the game the way I liked, like there is for other earlier iterations of the game. In comparison to all the other games and RPGs out there I give credit to WoW for being able to introduce interesting elements while still maintaining some semblance of viability of most everything. Compared to the fact that their biggest competitor (which I play just as much) has pretty much static gear that just increases linearly in stats, no specs, no set bonuses or trinkets... and you have jo... i mean classes that are below others by 15-25%... I'd say it's a major issue that plenty of talented game designers and companies have to work hard to achieve, but I'd rather that they fight to achieve it and sometimes fall short while still doing their best to give us new experiences from time to time, than just not try at all.

[AcidicSyn]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

LF Tank Mythic Other Side, Link T3 Bastion Class Ability or no invite?

[ohwell]

They've said that covenants will be a large number of small choices rather than one big choice which makes it harder to pick a definitive answer.

Also unless you are a Hall of Fame guild it literally doesn't matter pick whichever one you want. If you are in a Hall of Fame guild you signed up for the whole Min/Max life

I mean even in BC as a warlock in a reasonably decent guild but not top anything by any margin, I ran an odd build during Kara to SSC and consistently outparsed the ones who were running the mainline ones(I was doing an imp threat reduction build so I could just spam without ever worrying about threat whereas later when using sb spam build it was an actual problem at times). People tend to ignore things that have tiny differences thinking they matter.

[Byzantium]

Meh, I don't care about min-maxing. Unless something drastic happens I'll stick by necrolords with my main and pick up all the other cosmetics with alts.

[huth]

The fact remains...you have to CREATE one talent...that is the same DPS increase for 36 classes.

Can you create one right now?
How will you come up with one?

One? Several...you have to create several talents...

No, you don't. You have to create 4 that are the same for 1 class.

If a Warlock gets more or less from the covenant than a mage doesn't matter. If a mage gets more or less from Venthyr than Bastion does.

[PointerToAddress]

LF Tank Mythic Other Side, Link T3 Bastion Class Ability or no invite?

Why does everyone says that's gonna happen? Didn't happen with Azerite pieces and didn't happen with Essences. No one cares if you have one trait over another. What matters is you play well with your kit and complete the content in front of you. Literally no one I know, any guildie, or any PUG I've been, has been kicked or screamed at by using a non-optimal talent or essence.

[Lothaeryn]

By this logic there should only be one class and three specs. There’s no choice in dps/tank/healer if every one min maxes and takes the best one. There’s also no choice in talents because you can min max them so take out all talents. Also take out the races because you can mix max those to.

We should all just be the same grey blob race with the game talents and class other wise it’s a dumb system because people min max.

Considering that anyone who wants to play in a somewhat competitive manner, or literally just wants to raid mythic, is going to be judged on their Covenant/talent/spec choices it becomes far more problematic for anyone wanting to play higher difficulty gameplay. People get judged on trivial shit and are excluded for it far more often than you care to think and it does affect who gets taken over another. One is not going to put themselves at a disadvantage if the public consensus is that their preferred choices are subpar.

For fucks sake, people judge you based on RaiderIO score, and that tells fuckall about actual competence at an individual level.

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Why does everyone says that's gonna happen? Didn't happen with Azerite pieces and didn't happen with Essences. No one cares if you have one trait over another. What matters is you play well with your kit and complete the content in front of you. Literally no one I know, any guildie, or any PUG I've been, has been kicked or screamed at by using a non-optimal talent or essence.

Because Azerite traits are tied to gear, which is a complete asspull of RNG for each player, it would be very difficult to discriminate on a system no one has control over.

Your choice in covenant though is 100% your own "fault" in the eyes of the public, you will be judged on that if its not easy to switch it.

[The King in Yellow]

Ahuh..... I am still going to choose the most aesthetically pleasing to me.

[Mamercus]

Considering that anyone who wants to play in a somewhat competitive manner, or literally just wants to raid mythic, is going to be judged on their Covenant/talent/spec choices it becomes far more problematic for anyone wanting to play higher difficulty gameplay. People get judged on trivial shit and are excluded for it far more often than you care to think and it does affect who gets taken over another. One is not going to put themselves at a disadvantage if the public consensus is that their preferred choices are subpar.

For fucks sake, people judge you based on RaiderIO score, and that tells fuckall about actual competence at an individual level.

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Because Azerite traits are tied to gear, which is a complete asspull of RNG for each player, it would be very difficult to discriminate on a system no one has control over.

Your choice in covenant though is 100% your own "fault" in the eyes of the public, you will be judged on that if its not easy to switch it.

I get that casuals don't care about this kind of thing but if this issue is serious in terms of balance it will cause a lot of problems for a large segment of the playerbase, and that's unfortunate. What should be a fun, largely aesthetic choice becomes an albatross for people playing multiple specs/roles and driven purely by the sim you are aiming for in other situations. Since I will probably still be playing rogue I will just pick whatever covenant gives the best ST sim and suck it up if I am still playing the game.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Considering that anyone who wants to play in a somewhat competitive manner, or literally just wants to raid mythic, is going to be judged on their Covenant/talent/spec choices it becomes far more problematic for anyone wanting to play higher difficulty gameplay. People get judged on trivial shit and are excluded for it far more often than you care to think and it does affect who gets taken over another. One is not going to put themselves at a disadvantage if the public consensus is that their preferred choices are subpar.

For fucks sake, people judge you based on RaiderIO score, and that tells fuckall about actual competence at an individual level.

If you want to play at high end like that then it’s more of the same what’s the problem? The fact that you can change covenants are all make it less of a problem then people min maxing classes and not having to pay real money makes it less of a problem then min maxing races.

[Big Thanks]

No, you don't. You have to create 4 that are the same for 1 class.

If a Warlock gets more or less from the covenant than a mage doesn't matter. If a mage gets more or less from Venthyr than Bastion does.

Dont quite follow your logic.

It still needs to be balanced around 36 specs.
You cant say it only matters for 1 class...when there are several others...

Example: You made perfect balance for the mage class....there are still other classes in the game.

EDIT: Im talking Soul Links. Not the Covenant specific class spell. I think thats what u meant.

[Lothaeryn]

If you want to play at high end like that then it’s more of the same what’s the problem? The fact that you can change covenants are all make it less of a problem then people min maxing classes and not having to pay real money makes it less of a problem then min maxing races.

Because that mindset eventually trickles down to the rest of the casual playerbase, cookiecutter builds have existed since the start of this game for a reason and its because it gets perpetually reinforced by 'follow the leader'; it eventually poisons the overall mindset of the community and just makes the experience worse for wear.

I really should not need to explain why numeric systems being quantified affects overall social experiences in online games.

[AcidicSyn]

Meh, I don't care about min-maxing. Unless something drastic happens I'll stick by necrolords with my main and pick up all the other cosmetics with alts.

Sort of this. Except I just want to know which covenant, if any, is going to have the most flavorful interaction with my character.

Blizz said they want to go back to class focus, I wonder if that means story. IE: Would my DK have a more interesting story with the Necrolords? Or will it matter at all? Additionally, will the separate campaigns involve more characters from the past as well or will those interactions be specific to the leveling experience or maw?

I imagine for example, anyone wanting to have lots of story with Kael'thas would go to the Venthyr.

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Why does everyone says that's gonna happen? Didn't happen with Azerite pieces and didn't happen with Essences. No one cares if you have one trait over another. What matters is you play well with your kit and complete the content in front of you. Literally no one I know, any guildie, or any PUG I've been, has been kicked or screamed at by using a non-optimal talent or essence.

While I have definitely seen plenty kicked for all the reason you listed in my time. I should say that I am not saying that, I was responding to the OP with what I figured they were referring to; nothing more.

[Tantaburs]

If you want to play at high end like that then it’s more of the same what’s the problem? The fact that you can change covenants are all make it less of a problem then people min maxing classes and not having to pay real money makes it less of a problem then min maxing races.

If you play at the actual high end then you signed up for this.

If you are in a non top 100 mythic guild that is asked ng players to play as if they were in a top 100 guild then you should leave that guild.

If you are relying on the pug world and the idiotic requirements they set for rather simple tasks then you aren't playing at the top end.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because that mindset eventually trickles down to the rest of the casual playerbase, cookiecutter builds have existed since the start of this game for a reason and its because it gets perpetually reinforced by 'follow the leader'; it eventually poisons the overall mindset of the community and just makes the experience worse for wear.

I really should not need to explain why numeric systems being quantified affects overall social experiences in online games.

Again it’s more of the same but easier to deal with then the things we already have. If you play as a warlock and the community won’t take you because mages are better min maxed then you are a lot worse off then having a covenant.

Instead of having them strip all choice out of the game because stupid people who think they are high end when really all they do if poorly follow guides how about you just find some friends who aren’t dumb asses?

[DeuZWw]

To be fair, it is a player choice to "Min-Max".
If you aren't going for World-First, you can pretty much use Any build and set of Talents that is more fun to you and still clear all the content. You may need more gear, or to adapt some stuff, but it's doable.
Also theres alot of things to take into account when MinMaxing, and theres alot of stuff that helps more casual guilds to clear heroic content and even some mythics. things like more survivability and mobility is great to have when you can't help yourself and have to stand into the fire.

So, as long as its balanced enough that the Most Fun but Worst talent won't make yourself useless and some content undoable, its fine by me.

[huth]

Dont quite follow your logic.

It still needs to be balanced around 36 specs.
You cant say it only matters for 1 class...when there are several others...

Example: You made perfect balance for the mage class....there are still other classes in the game.

EDIT: Im talking Soul Links. Not the Covenant specific class spell. I think thats what u meant.

No. The classes only need to be balanced against each other as a whole. How the covenants do comparatively only matters within the class.

Also note that most Soulbinds actually aren't preset, but simply slots for a glyph-like system. So you could use the same one regardless of covenant, which significantly reduces the issue.

[Muajin76]

People will take the one with the mathematically best skills and that's it. I don't get why Blizzard thinks this gives choice to the players. It absolutely does not. Especially with this 'you can only choose one, so choose wisely' crap. This will only make me look up a guide on what's providing the best DPS/HPS/Utility.

Am I missing something here or is this system a really dumb idea?

Hmm..And here i thought the notes said we CAN choose covenants. I guess my reading isn't so well. :P
So when you say there is no choice, that means we only get ONE covenant?:P