Who Should have Won LK VS Sylvanas

[TheFirstOnes]

You know we are still before 8.3, and cinematic is from another xpac? Wait for the 8.3 story before saying 'it was not explained in the game'.

This is wrong anyway because it is talked about in game. And why do you want this explained? Death is practically the least explained force to date. Hell, it's actually one of the greater cosmic powers in WoW, as everything ends with Death. This force might surpass even the Legion in terms of cosmic power.

[Sluvs]

You know we are still before 8.3, and cinematic is from another xpac? Wait for the 8.3 story before saying 'it was not explained in the game'.

They could have recognized in the cinematic.

[TheFirstOnes]

They just mention that they never seen that kind of magic. There was no mention of her power level. There is an abyss between saying "wow, never saw that magic before" to "WTF? How did she get so pwerful?"

You could also excuse her power by her being a former ranger general of the High Elves, ya know? She wasn't using much power outside of her base Death magics given to her by the Jailer. You see much more of her power when she's against the Lich King, much likely due to ICC's connection with the Shadowlands.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

In a straight "first to die loses" fight it should be Bolvar.

But that wasn't what the goal of the fight was, and Sylvanas played to her win condition excellently.

[Alcsaar]

Remember, Bolvar wasn’t exactly some powerful dude by any means. He is nothing compared to what Arthas was before receiving the helm. Not to mention, an absurd amount of power came from Frostmourne, something Bolvar also doesn’t have.

Sylvanas is literally a powerful banshee capable of killing armies alone.

There is no way in hell Lich King stood a chance against someone like her. Most of the Alliance and Horde leaders could have wiped the floor with Lich King.

Bolvar was struck by dragon fire and survived. That alone is more impressive than anything Arthas did with out the crutch of Frostmourne.

On top of that he withstood a long time frame of torture by the Lich King and didn't break. More proof that there should have been more to him than there was.

I didn't expect him to win, but I also didn't expect him to get cast aside like he was nothing, either. This whole ret-con of sylvanas being powered up by some mysterious being is just nonsense lore than they needed to make up for a new story.

[vipers]

Given the story of Sylvanas's alliance with The Jailer and Shadowlands, the outcome was pretty clear. It will be interesting to see if and how Bolvar fights back as the expansion proceeds.

We don't know anything about jailer so it is not pretty clear

[Sluvs]

You could also excuse her power by her being a former ranger general of the High Elves, ya know? She wasn't using much power outside of her base Death magics given to her by the Jailer. You see much more of her power when she's against the Lich King, much likely due to ICC's connection with the Shadowlands.

Here is the thing. I shouldnt have to perform mental gymnastics to explain to myself whats going on and make it acceptable. The burden to explain itself, at least to a reasonable degree, it's on the narrative. Having one line in one character that addresses the type of magic and not it's power its not enough. It should be a bigger a deal that she is able to handle the lich king with barely a scratch.

[BFAistrashlikeyou]

Remember, Bolvar wasn’t exactly some powerful dude by any means. He is nothing compared to what Arthas was before receiving the helm. Not to mention, an absurd amount of power came from Frostmourne, something Bolvar also doesn’t have.

Sylvanas is literally a powerful banshee capable of killing armies alone.

There is no way in hell Lich King stood a chance against someone like her. Most of the Alliance and Horde leaders could have wiped the floor with Lich King.

SO the Eternal flame power from Alextraza mixed with Helm which contains Ner"zhul AND a piece of Arthas = weaker than sylvanas?

I 100% disagree.

[ohwell]

Remember, Bolvar wasn’t exactly some powerful dude by any means. He is nothing compared to what Arthas was before receiving the helm. Not to mention, an absurd amount of power came from Frostmourne, something Bolvar also doesn’t have.

Sylvanas is literally a powerful banshee capable of killing armies alone.

There is no way in hell Lich King stood a chance against someone like her. Most of the Alliance and Horde leaders could have wiped the floor with Lich King.

Eh not "most" but some. Tyrande/Malfurion depending on who is currently writing for them since both have had nearly godlike power before then there was the Legion debacle. Short of those 2 I'm not sure of a SINGLE leader who could take him down. He still had the helm and an army. Unless someone's holding out on powers like she was, nope.

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SO the Eternal flame power from Alextraza mixed with Helm which contains Ner"zhul AND a piece of Arthas = weaker than sylvanas?

I 100% disagree.

It no longer contains either one.

[kaelix1]

Sylvanas stood up against arthas and while she didn’t win she didn’t die either. Now she’s more powerful and bolvar is less powerful then arthas so it makes sense she would win.

How they portrayed that win on the other hand sucked.

Don't sugar-coat that and make it like its a feat, we manage to stand against him for a while because he was toying with us, LK Arthas was leagues above WOTLK Sylvannas

I said it again and i will say it many times, personally, I'm not surprised Bolvar lost, his circumstance of becoming LK is totally different than Arthas and in my opinion his not even close to Arthas level BUT, lets not forget the main issue, Sylvannas manage to defeat Bolvar at the place where he suppose to be at his strongest while she clear Icc to reach his place and had no injuries or show any sign of having problems, that's what I call bullshit, while I don't mind her defeating Bolvar for hyping the being she works with i find her ascend to power a big bullshit

What pain me the most i ques is with the helm gone it means Scourge is done, a huge history of wow is over in such a bullshit maner

[BFAistrashlikeyou]

Tbf he is also vastly untrained with the powers the Helm provides.

Arthas had Nerzhul whspering for years telling him how and what to do etc. Arthas also then went walkabout, leading conquests, attacking things personally, and basically learning all he could about his new found power set and pushing the boundaries of what he can do.

Bolvar did none of this. He viewed himself as a jailer of the damned, and nothing more. He used his powers purely to keep the Scourge from going apeshit. His actual power level was the same as Arthas as LK, but he had none of the finesse or actual knowledge of what he could/couldn't do. It was all raw brute stuff.

As an analogy? It is like you having a toon with BiS mythic gear, and knowing what the hell you are doing and being able ot min-max everything, then handing the same toon to Captain scrublord from LFR. Sure, the potential is there with the toon, but doesn't mean that Mr LFR is going to even come close to what is potentially possible.

Right Bolvar had NZ and Arthas whispering too him, and didnt give in..sounds like his will power is higher...but i guess that makes him weaker.

They mary sued Sylvanas with this "DEATH PACT" she has had since she killed herself.

Shit writing and sylvanas fanbois. There is 0 ingame reason why she would be more powerful than the Lich King. i repeat 0 IN GAME information .

[Sigxy]

Again, the Maw and the Jailer are empowering her. Both of those are Cosmic powers that predate even the Titan Pantheon. So, please think about this for a moment here...

I did think about it.

I still think it's bad. x_x The Lich King should've won - or at least end up in some kind of draw and both were pretty worn down, and then the Lich King got weak enough to let this Jailor or whatever make a cheap shot.

[ohwell]

They just mention that they never seen that kind of magic. There was no mention of her power level. There is an abyss between saying "wow, never saw that magic before" to "WTF? How did she get so pwerful?"

I mean she pretty much annihilated Saurfang with it....

[TheFirstOnes]

Here is the thing. I shouldnt have to perform mental gymnastics to explain to myself whats going on and make it acceptable. The burden to explain itself, at least to a reasonable degree, it's on the narrative. Having one line in one character that addresses the type of magic and not it's power its not enough. It should be a bigger a deal that she is able to handle the lich king with barely a scratch.

I agree, but not everything should be explained to you instantly. Sometimes, it's best you perform mental gymnastics on powers that come from the shadows. Remember, never before have we seen anything relating to the "Death" cosmic powers, and I mean NEVER. The game doesn't mention this, the Chronicle doesn't mention this, NOTHING is mentioned on this. Not like how Life is with Elune, and the Wild Gods (Elune is also likely Light as well). However, there were hints with the Edge of Night, showcasing Sylvanas and the Shadowlands, and how she herself has feared "death". The Jailer came up to her, gave her some Val'kyr, and went from there. And as Sylvanas gained more power, she went further in the dark side. And now, she's committing genocide in hopes of gaining her power for both her and her "master". Sylvanas isn't really doing anything of this on her own. Ion never claimed that she "has no master", not like what people are claiming. She herself serves the Jailer, but she's also free while doing this, which also means she's not like Kerrigan either. She's literally Death's Gul'dan.

[korijenkins]

Lich King should've won and then been beaten after the fact.

[TheFirstOnes]

I did think about it.

I still think it's bad. x_x The Lich King should've won - or at least end up in some kind of draw and both were pretty worn down, and then the Lich King got weak enough to let this Jailor or whatever make a cheap shot.

Why though? The Jailer's power, as well as the Maw's power, is far greater than what the Lich King could ever hope to possess. And with Sylvanas being the Jailer's "champion" or whatever, it'd make sense for her to be fucking OP as well.

[TheFirstOnes]

Right Bolvar had NZ and Arthas whispering too him, and didnt give in..sounds like his will power is higher...but i guess that makes him weaker.

They mary sued Sylvanas with this "DEATH PACT" she has had since she killed herself.

Shit writing and sylvanas fanbois. There is 0 ingame reason why she would be more powerful than the Lich King. i repeat 0 IN GAME information .

*Looks at her past stuff from Legion, BFA, etc*

Yep. Nothing at all. Do you even play the game?

[AngerFork]

If it were just the Lich King vs Sylvanas, I’d go LK. But you have to remember that Sylvanas is being powered by something intense at this point: the Maw and whatever is going on with the Jailor. She in essence is grabbing her power from the same place the LK is getting his, but in a far stronger amount.

Combine that with the already sizable speed advantage Sylvanas has and how she surprised the LK with those purple chains connecting her arrows, and the result really could not have gone any other way.

[naeblis495]

She stood and did some damage to Arthas LK in the WOTLK dungeon(forgot the name) and could even bind him enough so that we could escape.

So WOTLK unbuffed sylvanas was already powerfull enough to at least survive and do some damage in a fight against the LK. She was clearly weaker , but not to an godly ammount even if we consider that Arthas was holding back/fooling around .

I'll say that Shadowland cinematic sylvanas could put quite the fight against even a fully serious LK and would ultimately win in a strictly 1v1 fight . But if Arthas can summon undead as casually as he did in numerous encounters , that would probably create enough of an opening for him to probably one shot her with frostmourne .

[BFAistrashlikeyou]

Eh not "most" but some. Tyrande/Malfurion depending on who is currently writing for them since both have had nearly godlike power before then there was the Legion debacle. Short of those 2 I'm not sure of a SINGLE leader who could take him down. He still had the helm and an army. Unless someone's holding out on powers like she was, nope.

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It no longer contains either one.

Was there a book that explained no one is in the helm now? and if so WHY? why does us killing the vessel Arthas remove souls from the helm?