Kiljaedan and Nathrezim didnt create Frostmourne & Lich King Armor

[Nerovar]

Precisely, there is a scale. With no soul being attached being the opposite to 'perfectly' attached.

No, that's simply wrong. A perfectly attached soul is basically a resurrection. Also once again you haven't provided anything that would indicate that there are undead which don't have souls attached to their dead bodies.

Having a key part of a source retconned obviously affects the overall integrity and reliabilty of the source. There are now light undead that do not experience pain in their undeath.

There is one "light undead" but it's not really relevant for regular undead. See, regular undead are raised using some sort of necromantic shadow magic which is antithetical to holy magic/the holy light. The light doesn't hurt them because they're animated, the light hurts them because it counteracts the shadow magic buffer that binds them to their bodies. Now, if you create "undead" using the light (we have no explanation of how this works currently), you'd expect a similar process but this time around, the light is what binds these souls imperfectly to their bodies. It only makes sense that the light wouldn't affect these types of "undead" (for the lack of a better word) in a negative way.

So you're saying they bound the souls of children into the abominations?

Did you read my post? Ghouls and abominations are most likely dumb because their brains are either rotten or mutilated. You can't think properly with half a brain. This is also the fate of most Forsaken according to the quest The Chill of Death.

It's so cold, now. The Plague of Undeath crawls through my veins like an icy serpent. The mindless state will be upon me soon.

No mind =/= no soul.

Actually in the nathanos story he is still under the sway of the Lich King, Sylvanas breaks the hold over him. I just checked.

No. The hatred. The master's will. If these three would not serve, they would be destroyed!
"Nathanos!" she called again, this time in the wailing voice his master's banshees used in
battle. The intensity of it startled him. Had she been sent here by the Lich King's command?
"Nathanos!" With the third sounding of his name, recognition skittered across his mind and
chased the cloud of fury away.

Exactly. But he has his soul as we can see from his inner monologue yet he acts (from what would be an outside perspective) like a mindless drone or zombie. That's why you can't simply look at an undead from an outside perspective and tell if he has a soul.

Yes, In BfA battle for Lordaeron sylvanas raises the skeletons of recently killed soldiers, these are quite clearly simply drones with no soul attached to them. Contrast this to her raising Derek produmore.

You literally see the "soul swirl" animation around Sylvanas when she resurrects the dead soldiers in front of Lordaeron City. They're drones because they were melted by the plague, Derek on the other hand got raised by a Val'kyr and seemingly got a reconstruction (similar to Nathanos) which we know makes undead more capable in terms of perception, emotions etc.
Also, just because they act as drones, doesn't mean they don't have a soul. Every undead that is controlled by a necromancer is effectively a drone (just like Nathanos in the quote you posted above) but they still have souls.

I really don't like to repeat myself multiple times. So please, either link me a real source that directly contradicts the bluepost or don't bother. You can't make these claims without substantiating them. This is getting pretty redundant.

[Katchii]

Turns out all along they were made in the shadowlands! I guess since KJ is dead now they are spitting on his grave in order to promote the new big boi boss. I wonder what new retcons are in store with this expansion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blizzar...ast-story/amp/

Where in that story does it say they weren't made by Kiljaeden and the Nathrezim and were actually made in the Shadowlands? It just says that you'll learn more about the origins of those things as you climb the tower and explore The Maw.

Granted, what you're saying may be true, but the link doesn't say that.

[Temp1on2]

No, that's simply wrong. A perfectly attached soul is basically a resurrection. Also once again you haven't provided anything that would indicate that there are undead which don't have souls attached to their dead bodies.



There is one "light undead" but it's not really relevant for regular undead. See, regular undead are raised using some sort of necromantic shadow magic which is antithetical to holy magic/the holy light. The light doesn't hurt them because they're animated, the light hurts them because it counteracts the shadow magic buffer that binds them to their bodies. Now, if you create "undead" using the light (we have no explanation of how this works currently), you'd expect a similar process but this time around, the light is what binds these souls imperfectly to their bodies. It only makes sense that the light wouldn't affect these types of "undead" (for the lack of a better word) in a negative way.



Did you read my post? Ghouls and abominations are most likely dumb because their brains are either rotten or mutilated. You can't think properly with half a brain. This is also the fate of most Forsaken according to the quest The Chill of Death.

It's so cold, now. The Plague of Undeath crawls through my veins like an icy serpent. The mindless state will be upon me soon.

No mind =/= no soul.


Exactly. But he has his soul as we can see from his inner monologue yet he acts (from what would be an outside perspective) like a mindless drone or zombie. That's why you can't simply look at an undead from an outside perspective and tell if he has a soul.





You literally see the "soul swirl" animation around Sylvanas when she resurrects the dead soldiers in front of Lordaeron City. They're drones because they were melted by the plague, Derek on the other hand got raised by a Val'kyr and seemingly got a reconstruction (similar to Nathanos) which we know makes undead more capable in terms of perception, emotions etc.
Also, just because they act as drones, doesn't mean they don't have a soul. Every undead that is controlled by a necromancer is effectively a drone (just like Nathanos in the quote you posted above) but they still have souls.

I really don't like to repeat myself multiple times. So please, either link me a real source that directly contradicts the bluepost or don't bother. This is getting pretty redundant.

Clearly we have different interpretations. No point going back and forth.

[Kyphael]

Now that The Legion is out of the picture and Blizzard finished butchering its own lore with Argus, they're going to underrate everything Kil'jaeden did, chiefly his biggest accomplishment; The Lich King, in exchange of creating new lore because Blizzard doesn't know how to introduce new stories without butchering or retconning old. That's why Chronicles isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

[Nerovar]

Now that The Legion is out of the picture and Blizzard finished butchering its own lore with Argus, they're going to underrate everything Kil'jaeden did, chiefly his biggest accomplishment; The Lich King, in exchange of creating new lore because Blizzard doesn't know how to introduce new stories without butchering or retconning old. That's why Chronicles isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Harsh words but ultimately true. They really don't treat older lore with the reverence it deserves.

[Jeina]

So Blizzard stated that we'll learn more about the origins of Frostmourne and the Helm and you immediately assumed that demons had nothing to do with it... despite having no idea what the origins of the items will be when the expansion comes out?

[Melsiren]

Shadowlands has produced some high quality salt from some unexpected sources.

[Fistfighter]

Nathrezim-forged, similar to Apocalypse, was the lore for Frostmourne & the armor up until now.

It could always be the Dreadlords made them in the Shadowlands. They said we'd "meet" the blacksmith who made them, so we'll see where it goes.

nathrezim are lords of lies and deception, tho.

they just stole them from shadowlands, removed the watermark and claimed as their own creation.

[GreenJesus]

Eh, to be honest I find them being relics of the Shadowlands a lot more fitting and interesting than demons having made them and in the grand scheme of retcons this is fairly small imo. Kil'jaeden still brought it all together to create the Lich King. That's the real accomplishment.

That is true. Nathrezim finding an artifact and maybe tweaking it to what Kil'jaedan desires; and then Kil'jaedan infusing it with the tortured soul of Nerzhul. Wouldn't be that bad. Plus it was never really 100% fleshed out. The only reason this is possible is because in legion they made the legion only "green fel bois", when before they were the masters of everything and all magic that lead to destruction.

[Goldielocks]

That is true. Nathrezim finding an artifact and maybe tweaking it to what Kil'jaedan desires; and then Kil'jaedan infusing it with the tortured soul of Nerzhul. Wouldn't be that bad. Plus it was never really 100% fleshed out. The only reason this is possible is because in legion they made the legion only "green fel bois", when before they were the masters of everything and all magic that lead to destruction.

How does it matter what "wouldn't be that bad" if it contradicts what makes sense according to WC3? The Nathrezim could control the Scourge with no special items. It was their skill with necromancy that made it possible. The Lich King was always portrayed as being bestowed Nathrezim power by blessing the armor, along with Frostmorne.

I honestly won't be surprised if all of this changes in WC3: Reforged. They have a perfect opportunity to rewrite the Nathrezim's entire history.

[Eazy]

And in real life people used to think that Earth is flat. Now it's round. Is it also retcon?

Because it ss literally said in the lore(in the game, books) that Kil'jaeden forged the Lich King armor:

Ner'zhul and his followers entered the Twisting Nether, the ethereal plane that connects all of the worlds scattered throughout the Great Dark Beyond. Unfortunately Kil'jaeden and his demonic minions were waiting for them. Kil'jaeden, who had sworn to take vengeance on Ner'zhul for his prideful defiance, slowly tore the old shaman's body apart, piece by piece. Kil'jaeden kept the shaman's spirit alive and intact, thus leaving Ner'zhul painfully aware of his body's gross dismemberment. Though Ner'zhul pleaded with the demon to release his spirit and grant him death, the demon grimly replied that the Blood Pact they had made long ago was still binding, and that Ner'zhul still had a purpose to serve.

The orcs' failure to conquer the world for the Burning Legion forced Kil'jaeden to create a new army to sow chaos throughout the kingdoms of the Azeroth. This new army could not be allowed to fall prey to the same petty rivalries and infighting that had plagued the Horde. It would have to be merciless and single-minded in its mission. This time, Kil'jaeden could not afford to fail.

Holding Ner'zhul's spirit helpless in stasis, Kil'jaeden gave him one last chance to serve the Legion or suffer eternal torment. Once again, Ner'zhul recklessly agreed to the demon's pact. Ner'zhul's spirit was placed within a specially crafted block of diamond-hard ice gathered from the far reaches of the Twisting Nether. Encased within the frozen cask, Ner'zhul felt his consciousness expand ten thousand-fold. Warped by the demon's chaotic powers, Ner'zhul became a spectral being of unfathomable power. At that moment, the orc known as Ner'zhul was shattered forever, and the Lich King was born.

Ner'zhul's loyal death knights and Shadowmoon followers were also transformed by the demon's chaotic energies. The wicked spellcasters were ripped apart and remade as skeletal liches. The demons had ensured that even in death, Ner'zhul's followers would serve him unquestioningly.

When the time was right, Kil'jaeden explained the mission for which he had created the Lich King. Ner'zhul was to spread a plague of death and terror across Azeroth that would snuff out human civilization forever. All those who died from the dreaded plague would arise as the undead, and their spirits would be bound to Ner'zhul's iron will forever. Kil'jaeden promised that if Ner'zhul accomplished his dark mission of scouring humanity from the world, he would be freed from his curse and granted a new, healthy body to inhabit.

Though Ner'zhul was agreeable and seemingly anxious to play his part, Kil'jaeden remained skeptical of his pawn's loyalties. Keeping the Lich King bodiless and trapped within the crystal cask assured his good conduct for the short term, but the demon knew that he would need to keep a watchful eye on him. To this end, Kil'jaeden called upon his elite demon guard, the vampiric dreadlords, to police Ner'zhul and ensure that he accomplished his dread task. Tichondrius, the most powerful and cunning of the dreadlords, warmed to the challenge; he was fascinated by the plague's severity and the Lich King's unbridled potential for genocide.

It's updated from the Warcraft III manual.

It can be find:
Reliquary of Scholomance in the Western Plaguelands
Southshore Inn in the Hillsbrad Foothills
The Scarlet Bastion (live side) of Stratholme
The Darkshire town hall in Duskwood, next to Lord Ello Ebonlocke


Although it's nowhere said that Kil'jaeden DIDN'T forge it. I think that players are kinda confused because it's said that they were made in the Shadowlands, which leads to question - what the hell was the Eredar lord doing there?

So Blizzard stated that we'll learn more about the origins of Frostmourne and the Helm and you immediately assumed that demons had nothing to do with it... despite having no idea what the origins of the items will be when the expansion comes out?

Exactly. We don't have any new informations about it.

[Goldielocks]

Although it's nowhere said that Kil'jaeden DIDN'T forge it. I think that players are kinda confused because it's said that they were made in the Shadowlands, which leads to question - what the hell was the Eredar lord doing there?

That's not my problem with it. My problem is that the Lich King doesn't do what any Nathrezim couldn't already do on their own, meaning that Ner'zhul was never really that special.

I never got any feeling whatsoever that there was something greater going on with the Helm of Domination. It was precisely that he didn't have any unique power that made this to be the case. He was created as a punishment and to be put to work weakening Azeroth.

[Sluvs]

Turns out all along they were made in the shadowlands! I guess since KJ is dead now they are spitting on his grave in order to promote the new big boi boss. I wonder what new retcons are in store with this expansion!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/blizzar...ast-story/amp/

It could be crafted in the shadowlands by the nathrezim.

[Fallen of Lordaeron]

nathrezim are lords of lies and deception, tho.

they just stole them from shadowlands, removed the watermark and claimed as their own creation.

Only issue with that is according to Chronicles 3, they forged Frostmourne in a way that it couldn't be used to trap the souls of demons, which is why it was unable to trap Mal'Ganis' soul.

- - - Updated - - -

It could be crafted in the shadowlands by the nathrezim.

That seems the most likely. Or the Nathrezim commissioned it from the Shadowlands.

[pewpmeiser]

Lore evolves, new truths are discovered, and yes some things get retconned. If people are going to boycott an expansion over that, they can go boohoo somewhere else.

[InfiniteCharger]

Bolvar already said he was taking the role of "The Jailer of the Damned" all the way back in WoTLK, though. It wasn't a retcon. Whether it was a metaphor or carry a literal meaning wasn't specified. We don't even know if the Lich King instead of Bolvar (in other words, Ner'zhul & Arthas) was meant to take that role, or it was something Bolvar decided to.

Agreed. However, the way they are using it now in association with this expansion is just really more retconning in that the new "jailor" inside the shadowlands implies strong connections to the Lich King. Then we have the weapons themselves being made in the shadowlands and you get all these breadcrumbs that basically point to the Lich King being and agent of the death realm and not simply a pawn of demons. Icecrown being key or portal to the shadowlands is another example of such a breadcrumb. Which then makes the LK into the keeper of balance between Life and Death. All of those individual elements together just basically removes the demonic forces as "evil" in creating the Lich King. And the idea that there is a forge in shadowlands to create items to control undead is just to allow players to make new legendaries.... But will these legendaries have death powers now? Of course not. It makes no sense. Why would denizens of the dead need or make weapons to be used by the living for any purpose, but especially to keep dead souls from going to the shadowlands in the first place?

I said it in another thread, but people are getting confused and misusing the term "retcon". In order for something to be a retcon, regardless whether it's consistent or not, it need to reframe / change a past event in the story. If the event isn't changed and remains the same, but there are extra information added in, it's not a retcon but just elaboration of the story instead. Keep in mind that the event need to be changed / reframed, not our speculation of how said event works. Otherwise, we might as well just call any additional to the story a "retcon" - that's not how it works, neither in WoW nor in literature in general.

RETCON can have many meanings in different contexts. But in this context, it is the fact that "death" as a concept is no longer meaningful in any serious way lorewise. Mortals can come and go into the shadowlands all they want. Sylvanas and the foresaken can come and go into the shadowlands and not have their souls ripped from their corpses on contact.... All so player can get some new neat lewt basically. That's all this boils down to. It is not something anybody should be taking seriously.

Would you mind elaborating the contradictions in Sylvanas' action (other than her desire for the Warchief role, that does seem like a retcon at the moment) you are talking about? The thread is rather long and I'm a bit too lazy to go back through the chain of replies to find your original argument about it.

Originally she wanted to raise more undead going into BFA. You actually see her doing this during the expansion. And previously to that this was a major part of the lore of Syvlanas and the Foresaken in how they maintained their numbers. But now, that was not really her plan. She wanted folks to die and stay dead without being raised to undeath to serve her will. If you don't see how that is contradicted by the events of BFA, there isn't more I can say.

[Bmfstunner]

All this reminds me of is like when Frieza destroyed planet Vegeta because he was worried about the saiyans becoming too strong and then in super you find out beerus sent Frieza to nuke the planet.

The lore is still there in the actions committed, you're just getting more layers to the story. Let it go. It's not the end of the world, no pun intended.

- - - Updated - - -

Lore evolves, new truths are discovered, and yes some things get retconned. If people are going to boycott an expansion over that, they can go boohoo somewhere else.

Exactly, this is so marginal, like let's just worry if the game sucks or not at this point.

[Sluvs]

Agreed. However, the way they are using it now in association with this expansion is just really more retconning in that the new "jailor" inside the shadowlands implies strong connections to the Lich King. Then we have the weapons themselves being made in the shadowlands and you get all these breadcrumbs that basically point to the Lich King being and agent of the death realm and not simply a pawn of demons. Icecrown being key or portal to the shadowlands is another example of such a breadcrumb. Which then makes the LK into the keeper of balance between Life and Death. All of those individual elements together just basically removes the demonic forces as "evil" in creating the Lich King. And the idea that there is a forge in shadowlands to create items to control undead is just to allow players to make new legendaries.... But will these legendaries have death powers now? Of course not. It makes no sense. Why would denizens of the dead need or make weapons to be used by the living for any purpose, but especially to keep dead souls from going to the shadowlands in the first place?


RETCON can have many meanings in different contexts. But in this context, it is the fact that "death" as a concept is no longer meaningful in any serious way lorewise. Mortals can come and go into the shadowlands all they want. Sylvanas and the foresaken can come and go into the shadowlands and not have their souls ripped from their corpses on contact.... All so player can get some new neat lewt basically. That's all this boils down to. It is not something anybody should be taking seriously.


Originally she wanted to raise more undead going into BFA. You actually see her doing this during the expansion. And previously to that this was a major part of the lore of Syvlanas and the Foresaken in how they maintained their numbers. But now, that was not really her plan. She wanted folks to die and stay dead without being raised to undeath to serve her will. If you don't see how that is contradicted by the events of BFA, there isn't more I can say.

Thats is a HUUUUGE stretch. We are living people visiting the shadowlands, we can come and go as we please because we have a link to azeroth, it does not mean that people that died can go back. Hell, several mithologies have underworld that their heroes visit but cannot bring back anything from it. I think you are assuming WAAAYY to much here. Death can still be permanent, and if we fix the veil by the end of the expansion, that pathway will also be closed.

[InfiniteCharger]

Thats is a HUUUUGE stretch. We are living people visiting the shadowlands, we can come and go as we please because we have a link to azeroth, it does not mean that people that died can go back. Hell, several mithologies have underworld that their heroes visit but cannot bring back anything from it. I think you are assuming WAAAYY to much here. Death can still be permanent, and if we fix the veil by the end of the expansion, that pathway will also be closed.

OK. So why doesn't Sylvanas have her sould immediately ripped from her body as a corpse who is dead then?
"Death" as a concept means when things die they stay dead. That is the point.

And what is Sylvanas or the player going to do if something is "broken" in death? All she was is a minion of the Lich King who regained her free will.
What "special knowledge" or "powers" does she have to fix anything in the shadowlands as she is an undead creature bound to the land of the living whose very existence opposes her soul going to the shadowlands? Her very existence and the existence of the LK, Scourge and Foresaken are what is "broken" with death because they should be dead dead and in the shadowlands.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

But I get it, its a game and as most games go, stories are nonsensical to begin with. So I don't take it that seriously anyway.

[GreenJesus]

Thats is a HUUUUGE stretch. We are living people visiting the shadowlands, we can come and go as we please because we have a link to azeroth, it does not mean that people that died can go back. Hell, several mithologies have underworld that their heroes visit but cannot bring back anything from it. I think you are assuming WAAAYY to much here. Death can still be permanent, and if we fix the veil by the end of the expansion, that pathway will also be closed.

So does that mean no one will be able to come with us if we are super special with link to Azeroth? I don't think I saw anything saying what main characters will be in this expansion like they did for BFA.