Deathknights Are Necromancers Is A FALLACY

[Shakana]

The premise is focused on relationship and differences between death knights and necromancers in the scope of the Warcraft universe. The title alludes to this.

I'm arguing that the fallacious claim that "necromancers are death knights" is UNSOUND in the bounds of the Warcraft universe. Please do not use sources outside of the scope of Warcraft - especially publicly curated sources like Wikipedia - to back your argument.

I gave you other arguments, and i will repeat, that you ignored.
The game itself has true pure necromancers, one of them the most known being Kel'thuzad.
It gets tiring having to repeat myself, because you're not wanting to pay attention to my words in search of having an answer to prove your point instead of trying to get mine. It's like regardless of my effort to try explain my point, you'll keep continuing defend yours and don't try to validate mine because yours are the right ones.
I read what you said and i gave you reasons and explained why death knights aren't consider "necromancers", also the specs, besides unholy, shows they are more than just about it.

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They already addressed this themselves. They tried to make it work but couldnt so unholy is the necromancer. I dont really understand what your attachment to a necromancer is. We have one class dedicated to summoning stuff with a spec that summons a lot of stuff and then we have another spec that summons some undead stuff

and if you want a death knight that shoots rockets and fireballs play quake champions

Yep. I have been trying to put this on people's minds. Blizzard itself said this.About the people wanting a necromancer, well, people want more casters in the game. Even new classes have always been melee. That's about it.

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If Blizzard wanted Necromancer class in the game, Shadowlands would probably be the best time to add them.

Thus, my conclusion - Blizzard themselves feel like Death Knight and Necromancer are too close to deserve a seperate class.

Thanks, that's all evidence you'll ever need.

More like because a necromancer can push stuff from warlocks and from unholy dk spec. And for doing so, they will be forced to change stuff, warlocks have been giving their stuff to other classes, including meta. Dark sorcerer is warlock. If they want necromancy on a caster and not on a melee, then they should add a 4th spec to a warlock. That's the only way. Or as they did, keep it like it is, and not add a new class.

It's hard to imagine a class that is not about death this expansion. So if we already have stuff similar to it, then it must not be brought up at all. If it sacrifices existent classes specs and abilities.

I just won't cry anymore for a new class or want necromancer anymore, as i can see it won't happen. So i will just quit the idea, before i get burnout of overthinking about it and not having it lol Most reasonable thing to do.

[mario710]

I gave you other arguments, and i will repeat, that you ignored.
The game itself has true pure necromancers, one of them the most known being Kel'thuzad.

I read what you said and i gave you reasons and explained why death knights aren't consider "necromancers", also the specs, besides unholy, shows they are more than just about it.

Begging the question?

There is no such thing as a 'true necromancer' in the Warcraft universe. At best, your argument is an assumption that is not backed by facts.

[Aldo Hawk]

[LIST]Just because a Deathknight is a Necromancer doesn't mean that a Necromancer is a Deathknight.

Believe me, I have been telling this same line of logic to other people about Blood elves being High elves but High elves not being Blood elves and it seems that it's too hard for people to understand such a thing.

One just have to pray for any potential developer reading forums to also be logical about things and don't buy bullshit.

[Shakana]

Begging the question?

There is no such thing as a 'true necromancer' in the Warcraft universe. At best, your argument is an assumption that is not backed by facts.

Oh man, you're firing me up. I better just stop trying, really lol you have such a blind way of speaking of your arguments, giving less facts to sustain your answers, the only thing you can come up with is a gamepedia link to prove your point. Can't you even articulate more thoughts into words? Feels like you're just talking about you read and have zero knowledge how the same "warcraft universe" was made. Necromancers pure necromancers, means, just working ONLY with necromancy. A dk, has specs for even frost. Frost has nothing at ALL related atm, with necromancy.

What more you want me to say for you to disregard?

[mario710]

Believe me, I have been telling this same line of logic to other people about Blood elves being High elves but High elves not being Blood elves and it seems that it's too hard for people to understand such a thing.

One just have to pray for any potential developer reading forums to also be logical about things and don't buy bullshit.

This isn't a high elf thread.

[Shakana]

Believe me, I have been telling this same line of logic to other people about Blood elves being High elves but High elves not being Blood elves and it seems that it's too hard for people to understand such a thing.

One just have to pray for any potential developer reading forums to also be logical about things and don't buy bullshit.

What is the point of saying a High Elf is not a blood elf but a blood elf is a high elf? Will it change something on wow? Blood elves will stay belves. And high elves will stay helves by now.

And saying that death knights are necromancers but necromancers are not death knights, makes no difference too, because in the game atm, unholy DK and not death knights are the necromancer for blizzard, not the whole dk itself. So obviously and that's my point, dks are not necromancers.

If blizzard already has a spec with necromancy they won't give a necromancer, and if they do, they will have to change dks spec unholy a little, to give to a full necromancer.

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This isn't a high elf thread.

Regardless the arguments, have a good night! Going to sleep now.

[Aldo Hawk]

This isn't a high elf thread.

Doesn't matter, just telling you that the same line of logic has been tried somewhere else and it doesn't work with random people when they don't want to understand.

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What is the point of saying a High Elf is not a blood elf but a blood elf is not a high elf? Will it change something on wow? Blood elves will stay belves. And high elves will stay helves by now.

Because people say that because one thing is the other, they can't see that that thing is not the same the other way.

And saying that death knights are necromancers but necromancers are not death knights, makes no difference too, because in the game atm, unholy DK and not death knights are the necromancer for blizzard, not the whole dk itself. So obviously and that's my point, dks are not necromancers.

It makes a difference, they are not the same thing. They may share some spells but they are not the same thing.

You can't say a necromancer is a Death Knight...

[Scottyjscizzle]

Noone is saying all necromancers are dks, the entire pushback is another warlock with do pets.

[Yoshimiko]

"If we can have Paladins and Priests, why can't we have Death Knights and Necromancers?"

There ya go. A much better title, that actually makes sense and you yourself don't contradict in your first post.

I definitely think there's room for a Necro, primarily because it's one of the most desired classes. Tinker fits far more, though. I like pet classes, so I'd love to see a Necro. All that said, coming at people with hostility isn't going to spark a meaningful conversation.

The real competition with Necro is Warlock. You've got a pet summoning spec, a corruption spec and a spec that focuses on direct damage with a small amount of dots.

A necro I'd imagine... a pet summoning spec, a corruption spec and a spec that focuses on dealing direct damage(through bones or corpse explosions or something). You can see the clear issue here. Shadow priest and AFflic lock got the "rot" magic on lock. Warlocks confused demonology build that changes every other patch shows they clearly have different ideas on how a spammy "pet" centric build should look, so maybe some room here...but the 3rd spec is so oversaturated, I'd be surprised if they actually did it.

Plenty of solutions, but these are the real problems I imagine with necromancer.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Death Knights aren't necromancers. Death Knight have their power specifically tied to the Lich King. While necromancers are free to draw their power from the more primal forces of Death

Not true. The first Death Knights predate the Lich King, and the Lich King is dead as of Shadowlands and DKs are only becoming more relevant.

[Powerogue]

Let's see, necromancer on dictionary.com....
"a method of divination through alleged communication with the dead; black art."

So yes, until we finally get the ability to speak Zombie again like the wotlk event, alas, we are not necromancers. </3

[anon5123]

>uses diseases, curses and summons undead minions
>overall commands the power of undeath
>"OMG IT'S NOT A NECROMANCER GUYS"

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

But.. You can have 2 "dead things" with you at all times..
You have apocalypse on 1min CD (summons like 5 dead things)
You have ARMY OF UNDEAD on CD (Like 10 more undead thingies)

If you had them all at the same time, you wouldnt be able to see your transmog and you would have a weird playstyle.

[TigTone]

They should just turn DK unholy necromancer into a ranged spec and make it just like what a necromancer class dps spec would be.

Ohh and make Frost dual wield or two hand

[therealbowser]

Death knights are not necromancers: True.
Death knights practice necromancy: True.
Death knights perform several, if not nearly all of, the abilities scourge necromancers practiced: True.

If we were going to have necromancers added, it would have had to cover a lot more than their generic scourge abilities. And it would have had to have been this expansion. It wasn't, despite the ideal opportunity for it, so we can assume we will basically never have playable necromancers. There will never, ever be a better time for them than now, and they were passed up on.

[mario710]

I heavily encourage that everyone look closely at the thread title.

It’s incorrect and I have no way of correcting it. Please read the original post.

Apologies for the confusion.

[jellmoo]

WoW has two innate problems when it comes to classes and class design:

1) Similar mechanics get focused on too much. People will mention that from a mechanical point of view, a Necromancer is too similar to what a Warlock already does. Basically summon things to attack for you. The issue here is that this is universally true. What's the core difference between a Fire Mage, a Destruction Warlock and an Elemental Shaman? Minor mechanical differences, but ultimately their mechanics boil down to: some abilities have a hard cast time, some are instant, some become instant with a proc. Mix and match as needed. They are functionally identical in what they accomplish. I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case for a Warlock and a Necromancer. They could be similar mechanically: Summon things to make enemies go splat in a spec, but still have some minor mechanical differences to set them apart. The classes, as the exist, are ridiculously similar in effect. This isn't changed because of a skin deep similarity.

2) Thematic similarity is also focused on overly much. Necromancers are too similar to Death Knights. Sure. But Paladins are similar to Priests. Demon Hunters are similar to Warlocks. Druids are similar to Shaman. Thematically, there is a fair amount of overlap between classes. Classes can and do occupy similar spaces within the game. Having a Necromancer doesn't suddenly invalidate the Death Knight. The same way that The Priest doesn't invalidate the Paladin. Hell, if the concept had been ironed out at launch, we may have even seen the Paladin class as a hero class instead of a base class, further displaying the similarity in the concept.

Ultimately, I'm not really a Necromancer fan. It's not my cup of tea. But if I can think up ways to make them thematically unique when compared to Death Knights and mechanically unique when compared to Warlocks, then I'm sure that people passionate about it can do an even better job of it. Waving away their desire for such a class with nothing more than "but Death Knights are a thing" is such a weak argument. At least come up with something with some meat on it. People want to have a class fantasy fulfilled and are telling you that what currently exists doesn't do it. Pointing out the obvious isn't going to change that.

[Feril]

Great news on this front : Raise Dead, their iconic necromancer ability, is coming back to Death Knights!
They kinda got away from their necromancer roots in the past, but if ever there was a time to remind people they're basically uber necromancers, it's the death themed expansion of Shadowlands!

They're not "uber" necromancers. They're meathead necromancers. All of their necromancy is geared towards making themselves durable for close combat, and to combat people in close quarters, with some support from a couple of undead servants.

A necromancer would have much more flashy ranged spells and better undead minions (since they would actually serve as a deterrant to melee attackers and not just a guy whacking whatever you're already whacking with your big runed stickaroo).

Death Knights are mostly their runeblades. That's what empowers them (their resource is runes and runic power, after all). Take that from them and the necromancy they're capable of is pitiful compared to a real necromancer that has actually studied necromancy.

[Aurrora]

You have trouble moving on from old tired and proven wrong arguments eh? Go check the dictionary. I swear every thread where someone mentions Tinker, here comes some guy that doesn't even know the meaning of words.

Tinker
noun
1. a mender of pots, kettles, pans, etc., usually an itinerant.

Uhh... I'm pretty sure the definition of Tinker isn't even what you're hoping to get.

The exact argument you make as to why there can't be a Necromancer or Dark Ranger class is the exact same reason there shouldn't be a Tinker class. Engineering already covers a large part of the Tinker class fantasy. Hunter with engineering and the mechanical pet skins is 95% of the way there.

[Th3Scourge]

In my opinion, the key feature of a necromancer is the ability to kill something, then raise it for your own.
You can not do this as any DK spec.
The closest you can get is Unholy's pet and Army, but they are just random ghouls.

One of the most potent things I love in Fantasy is the idea that the undead might start out with a single necromancer against an entire unorganized kingdom, and that one necromancer might end up raising so many dead that the kingdom is outnumbered in the end.

It was portrayed really well in Warcraft 3 and other fantasy like the Night King in GoT.
There is just something super bad ass about that moment when Dany loses the dragon and you just KNOW that swing was huge because it wasn't just one less ally, it was one more enemy as well.

A key concept of a necromancer involves raising the dead, which is exactly what a DK does. Even early iterations required a corpse or reagent to use raise dead. There maybe be difference in the way a necromancer operates but the DK is the playable version of one in wow