There's no choice in Covenants - they will be min-maxed anyway

[Tradu]

Ohh, the poor guys...im so sad for them...kappa.
If they want to min max then let them min max.

But Why exactly is it a horrible system for them???? They are going to min max...and then? Whats the problem?

The problem is that you won't want the same Covenant for every situation, and Blizzard might buff/nerf the abilities over time as well.

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It's not that it's a dumb idea, it's that the pervasive and honestly toxic attitude that everything has to be 100% optimal or its not worth bothering with means that any "choice" is an illusion, no matter what. The theorycrafters will always figure out what's the "best" and then push everyone towards that. It happens here, it happens in tabletop gaming, it happens in everything that these people get involved with and then they defend it with "There's nothing wrong with wanting to win!" as though that excuses turning 20 options into 5 and ignoring huge swathes of variety while at the same time usually being the ones crying how there's no variety. There's no variety because you and your ilk degenerated the variety down to one choice only!

There's room for multiple choices, just not in the same situation. That's what people don't get. It's not about multiple options for 1 scenario, it's about each scenario requiring a different setup. That should be the goal, and is actually possible to achieve. There's also the option of having the choices not be directly throughput or even power related, which allows for actual choice.

[Big Thanks]

The problem is that you won't want the same Covenant for every situation

But that is a problem made in the players mind. How is that a problem?

Its like saying "I have a girlfriend...but hey there is a hotter girl who lives right next to me, so let me just make myself miserable and call it a problem"

Its a self made problem. Min maxers are crazy and SHOULDNt be the responsible for game design in WoW.
Imagine an expansion catered to min maxers.
What a crap show it would be...

The problem here is min maxers trying to ruin "fun" for everyone else...just so we dont hurt their feelings of not having the optimal option for one fight.
The horror....

Min maxers are an impossible playerbase to cater to...without RIPPING the entire game of RPG features and make it a MATH simulator.

[Tradu]

But that is a problem made in the players mind. How is that a problem?

Its like saying "I have a girlfriend...but hey there is a hotter girl who lives right next to me, so let me just make myself miserable and call it a problem"

Its a self made problem. Min maxers are crazy and SHOULD be the responsible of game design in WoW.
Imagine an expansion cattered to min maxers.
What a crap show it would be...

The problem here is min maxers trying to ruin "fun" for everyone else...just so we dont hurt their feelings of not having the optimal option for one fight.
The horror....

Min maxers are an impossible playerbase to catter to...without RIPPING the entire game of RPG features and make it a MATH simulator.

Except disabling Covenants in at the very least mythic raids and M+ doesn't "ruin" the game for people who want to do random builds in easy content(and yes, that's where people like you who just want to try different things play). Blizzard already does it for rated PvP with tons of things, it's frustrating that they don't consider mythic/M+ worthy of that.

[kiramon]

The first thing I thought when I heard about this system was "which is the best one for my class?" and then "I hope it's with a faction I like." But I would take the best one no matter which faction had it.

And the first thing I thought was OOH I GET TO BE A BUTTERFLY.

To each his own

[Dalheim]

Covenant Armor > Min Max.

[Big Thanks]

Except disabling Covenants in at the very least mythic raids and M+ doesn't "ruin" the game for people who want to do random builds in easy content(and yes, that's where people like you who just want to try different things play). Blizzard already does it for rated PvP with tons of things, it's frustrating that they don't consider mythic/M+ worthy of that.

The idea of Blizzard to counter this min max mentality (which is really funny in itself, because it makes no sense) is to make changing Covenants as inconvenient as possible.

Me personally? I would make the transition take 24h.
Done, mentality destroyed.

Its a easy mentality to destroy.

[JohnBrown1917]

If its within 1%, only the hardcore players will care about that.

[Tradu]

The idea of Blizzard to counter this min max mentality (which is really funny in itself, because it makes no sense) is to make changing Covenants as inconvenient as possible.

Me personally? I would make the transition take 24h.
Done, mentality destroyed.

Its a easy mentality to destroy.

No, it's not. People would still do it. People did islands 10+ hours a day this expansion. It just makes the game worse for no good reason, seeing as disabling them in mythic raids(and to some extent M+) doesn't affect the people who want to roleplay with them anyway.

[ahgsfds]

I'll just use according to my taste (with class). Druid will go for Night Fae, Warlock for vampires, warrior for ud etc. Fantasy might be different, min max will possibly be different, but as casual, do I have to care? Just choose one that fits you.

[Big Thanks]

No, it's not. People would still do it. People did islands 10+ hours a day this expansion. It just makes the game worse for no good reason, seeing as disabling them in mythic raids(and to some extent M+) doesn't affect the people who want to roleplay with them anyway.

The transition would take 24h

Meaning:

You kill Boss 1
Go to the Covenant to change
Covenant: Sorry, the transition will take 24h

Can you spot any flaws in this? I dont see how it could be exploited.

[Zephire]

I'm looking for fun abilities and cosmetics. The min-max aspect will probably be of little consern if I'm not going for worldfirst. I mean, they would not make something over 15% stronger, hell, not even 10% stronger. So I don't really bother about that.

A fun ability that I can play around and some nice cosmetic stuff will be what I'm checking for. That's my choice. I mean, I would not choose boring abilities or bad (imo) cosmetics and I guess that removes the choice from me as well?

What is a choice? I should want to pick both options but I'd only be allowed one, right? If I only want one option then I don't have a choice? How does this even work?

[Tradu]

The transition would take 24h

Meaning:

You kill Boss 1
Go to the Covenant to change
Covenant: Sorry, the transition will take 24h

Can you spot any flaws in this? I dont see how it could be exploited.

Multiple characters, depending on how impactful the change is.

[Unholyground]

Only the top like 5-10% of players will actually give a shit.

[turboether]

We all know a good transmog gives more throughput anyway.

[Cariboulou]

The idea of Blizzard to counter this min max mentality (which is really funny in itself, because it makes no sense) is to make changing Covenants as inconvenient as possible.

Me personally? I would make the transition take 24h.
Done, mentality destroyed.

Its a easy mentality to destroy.

Or just make the Covenant abilities not usable in mythic raids and m+. Problem solved.
You're misunderstanding the issue a lot of us have with the Covenant system. Blizzard says we can chose which one we want but the problem becomes that on the one hand you want to join the covenant you like the most based on the looks and gear but on the other you also want to be the best you can be for your raid/dungeon group. If the differences were minuscule it wouldn't matter too much I guess but we all know there's bound to be an ability that's too good to pass up.

[Tradu]

Or just make the Covenant abilities not usable in mythic raids and m+. Problem solved.
You're misunderstanding the issue a lot of us have with the Covenant system. Blizzard says we can chose which one we want but the problem becomes that on the one hand you want to join the covenant you like the most based on the looks and gear but on the other you also want to be the best you can be for your raid/dungeon group. If the differences were minuscule it wouldn't matter too much I guess but we all know there's bound to be an ability that's too good to pass up.

Even just comparing the abilities previewed so far highlights this. The mobility options are too different, they're bound to have different use cases. The DPS ones vary in whether they're AoE or ST.

[Big Thanks]

Or just make the Covenant abilities not usable in mythic raids and m+. Problem solved.
You're misunderstanding the issue a lot of us have with the Covenant system. Blizzard says we can chose which one we want but the problem becomes that on the one hand you want to join the covenant you like the most based on the looks and gear but on the other you also want to be the best you can be for your raid/dungeon group. If the differences were minuscule it wouldn't matter too much I guess but we all know there's bound to be an ability that's too good to pass up.

This is a RPG and you made the choice yourself.
You chose "min maxing" over everything "RPG" about this game.

You made the choice yourself.

Min maxers shouldnt be responsible for game design...
You understand a game catered to "min maxers" would be a MATH simulator? You understand that right?

We are changing "everything RPG" and awesome customization....just because of some min maxers?

[Tradu]

This is a RPG and you made the choice yourself.
You chose "min maxing" over everything "RPG" about this game.

You made the choice yourself.

Min maxers shouldnt be responsible for game design...
You understand a game catered to "min maxers" would be a MATH simulator? You understand that right?

We are changing "everything RPG" and awesome customization....just because of some min maxers?

Min/maxing is a core part of RPGs. That's why there are numbers for everything.

[Big Thanks]

Min/maxing is a core part of RPGs. That's why there are numbers for everything.

min maxing = RPG ?
If anything, min maxing is an antonym to RPG.

Just look at your posts and see for yourself.
In your posts, you are trying to destroy RPG elements of the game in order to appeal to min maxers.

Min maxers are destroying Shadowlands.

[Cariboulou]

min maxing = RPG ?
If anything, min maxing is an antonym to RPG.

Just look at your posts and see for yourself.
In your posts, you are trying to destroy RPG elements of the game in order to appeal to min maxers.

Min maxers are destroying Shadowlands.

Why are you even bothered by us wanting some balance? You farming old raids will not be impacted by the covenant abilities being balanced against each other or even not usable in current mythic raids/m+. So why the outrage?
Also, your logic is flawed. Min maxing is an integral part of RPGs. That's why you get hyped when you get a new weapon that's better than what you have. If you don't care about min maxing you would just pass that weapon because "it's just more damage", right?